Thread: The Attack on Pearl Harbor. Surprise or not?

Part 2 goes into more detail about the Intell efforts of the Americans.

Of course not - the US were caught with their pants down.

Shit happens - get over the infallibility nonsense

FDR knew all about it well in advance. He let it happen, They ignored over 1000 radio intecepts, all logged, by the Japan fleet on his way to Hawaii which disclosed the bulk of the plan. They cleared the sea channel of cargo and civi ships to ensure the Japs had a clean straight path with no chance of accidental discovery. The night before the attack, the air craft carriers were moved out of PH to ensure they survived intact. All so that the Merkins could get some of the war action spoils and cement in place the formation of the UN.

All well documented......

Originally Posted by pseudolus

FDR knew all about it well in advance. He let it happen, They ignored over 1000 radio intecepts, all logged, by the Japan fleet on his way to Hawaii which disclosed the bulk of the plan. They cleared the sea channel of cargo and civi ships to ensure the Japs had a clean straight path with no chance of accidental discovery. The night before the attack, the air craft carriers were moved out of PH to ensure they survived intact. All so that the Merkins could get some of the war action spoils and cement in place the formation of the UN.

All well documented......

Somewhat true but there's still speculation on those airraft carriers still all liined up in a row.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

FDR knew all about it well in advance. He let it happen, They ignored over 1000 radio intecepts, all logged, by the Japan fleet on his way to Hawaii which disclosed the bulk of the plan. They cleared the sea channel of cargo and civi ships to ensure the Japs had a clean straight path with no chance of accidental discovery. The night before the attack, the air craft carriers were moved out of PH to ensure they survived intact. All so that the Merkins could get some of the war action spoils and cement in place the formation of the UN.

All well documented......

Yup, sums it up. Provoked the attack nicely as well

I live right above pearl harbor

I always think what it must of been like that morning with the view from my house watching the carnage

The Allied prisoners ( Women and children ) in Japanese prison camps, civilians celebrated the news of Pearl Harbour, they wanted America to enter the war.
Different times.

Empire of the sun, S Spielberg movie.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

FDR knew all about it well in advance. He let it happen, They ignored over 1000 radio intecepts, all logged, by the Japan fleet on his way to Hawaii which disclosed the bulk of the plan. They cleared the sea channel of cargo and civi ships to ensure the Japs had a clean straight path with no chance of accidental discovery. The night before the attack, the air craft carriers were moved out of PH to ensure they survived intact. All so that the Merkins could get some of the war action spoils and cement in place the formation of the UN.

All well documented......

Kinda old info and theories, really...

The good guys are never what they appear to be.

Here is an article the details the oil issue and how it WAS OIL that caused Japan to attack.

I knew the reason why mainly oil, but I did not know that the US had completely cut off Japan's oil supply.

Oil led to Pearl Harbor
Japan's thirst for the fossil fuel pushed it towards the day that lives in infamy


This article originally appeared on The Globalist.
TheGlobalist
Few people realize that it was oil — the shortage of oil — that precipitated the

Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.
Tensions between the United States and Japan were rising throughout that fateful year. Having initiated a war with China (America’s ally) and occupied Indochina, Japan’s totalitarian government was intent on imposing its will on all of the people of East Asia.

In the summer of 1941, before leaving for Placentia Bay, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt had ordered a freeze on Japanese assets. That measure required the Japanese to seek and obtain licenses to export and pay for each shipment of goods from the United States, including oil.

This move was most distressing to the Japanese because they were dependent on the United States for most of their crude oil and refined petroleum products. However, Roosevelt did not want to trigger a war with Japan. His intention was to keep the oil flowing by continuing to grant licenses.

Roosevelt had a noose around Japan’s neck, but he chose not to tighten it. He was not ready to cut off its oil lifeline for fear that such a move would be regarded as tantamount to an act of war.

That summer, while Roosevelt, his trusted adviser Harry Hopkins and U.S. Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles were attending the shipboard conference off Newfoundland and Secretary of State Cordell Hull was on vacation at the Greenbrier in West Virginia, the authority to grant licenses to export and pay for oil and other goods was in the hands of a three-person interagency committee.
It was dominated by Assistant Secretary of State Dean Acheson, whom one historian described as the “quintessential opportunist of U.S. foreign policy in 1941.”

Acheson favored a “bullet-proof freeze” on oil shipments to Japan, claiming it would not provoke war because “no rational Japanese could believe that an attack on us could result in anything but disaster for his country.”

With breathtaking confidence in his own judgment, and ignoring the objections of others in the State Department, Acheson refused to grant licenses to Japan to pay for goods in dollars. That effectively ended Japan’s ability to ship oil and all other goods from the United States.

Acheson’s actions cut off all American trade with Japan. When Roosevelt returned, he decided not to overturn the “state of affairs” initiated by Acheson, apparently because he feared he would otherwise be regarded as an appeaser.

Once Roosevelt perpetuated Acheson’s trade embargo, the planners in Japan’s imperial military headquarters knew that oil to fuel their fleet, as well as rubber, rice and other vital reserves, would soon run out.

By the end of the year at the latest, Japan would need to capture new supply sources in the oil-rich Dutch East Indies, which the United States would surely oppose. And to protect its long exposed flank as it moved south, the Japanese Navy would have to deliver a knockout blow to U.S. naval and air power in the Pacific.

Without oil, Japan could not survive a long war. The blow would be delivered at Pearl Harbor.

Throughout the summer and autumn, the First Carrier Division of the Japanese Navy secretly practiced low-level torpedo bombing in Kagoshima Bay, which bore a resemblance to Pearl Harbor. The plans for the Pearl Harbor attack were being developed by Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku, an innovative thinker with what the historian Gordon Prange has called “a gambler’s heart.”
In September 1941, Japan’s prime minister, Prince Konoye Fumimaro, who had been urging a personal meeting with the president to reach a peace agreement, was almost assassinated by pro-war fanatics wielding ceremonial knives. Weakened by the attempt to overthrow him and losing power and influence to militarist elements, Prince Konoye’s government fell on October 16, less than two months before the attack.

Oil led to Pearl Harbor - Salon.com

Originally Posted by pseudolus

^ A little misleading, because it omits that they cut the oil off with the aim to draw in the attack and get a way into the war.

Yes,

I thought of that also.

It makes perfect sense.

Cut off the oil supply, and Japan wilts for sure, or takes a chance at going to war.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by pseudolus

FDR knew all about it well in advance. He let it happen, They ignored over 1000 radio intecepts, all logged, by the Japan fleet on his way to Hawaii which disclosed the bulk of the plan. They cleared the sea channel of cargo and civi ships to ensure the Japs had a clean straight path with no chance of accidental discovery. The night before the attack, the air craft carriers were moved out of PH to ensure they survived intact. All so that the Merkins could get some of the war action spoils and cement in place the formation of the UN.

All well documented......

Somewhat true but there's still speculation on those airraft carriers still all liined up in a row.

What you talking about Willis?

As noted the aircraft carriers were out of Pearl on that day, and the battleships were the ones lines up, and the aircraft in the fields etc.

The problem with the conspiracy theory is that the Americans would have had to have been very, very far sighted to really understand that Naval warfare had just shifted, and it was carriers that were going to be the predominant form of projecting navel power in the future. Before Pearl, it was battleships and dreadnaughts all the way.

Anyone planning to mitigate Pearl would have had the battleships out of the way, and the aircraft carriers in the dock.

Even the Japanese at that time really put their trust in battleships, rather than aircraft carriers. They were useful for pearl, but not really integrated much more than that.

While the US held Coral sea and midway, it was a dam close call. Very, very close. And coral sea was the first time ever a naval battle was held in which the two sets of ships never fired directly on each other.

Nah. The yanks may have had some feeling shit was going to go down sometime - but Peal caught them with their pants well and truly down.

Originally Posted by nidhogg

As noted the aircraft carriers were out of Pearl on that day, and the battleships were the ones lines up, and the aircraft in the fields etc.

The problem with the conspiracy theory is that the Americans would have had to have been very, very far sighted to really understand that Naval warfare had just shifted, and it was carriers that were going to be the predominant form of projecting navel power in the future. Before Pearl, it was battleships and dreadnaughts all the way.

Maybe there were away. The military and analysts are constantly analyzing and adjusting.

Anyone planning to mitigate Pearl would have had the battleships out of the way, and the aircraft carriers in the dock.

Maybe if they cleared out the destroyers it would seem or be apparent that they were aware of the coming attack.

I'm just thinking things out. It can go both ways.

While the US held Coral sea and midway, it was a dam close call. Very, very close. And coral sea was the first time ever a naval battle was held in which the two sets of ships never fired directly on each other.

Nah. The yanks may have had some feeling shit was going to go down sometime - but Peal caught them with their pants well and truly down.

You seem to have a good amount of knowledge on the Pacific Theater in WWII.

Appreciate your posts.