Thread: Should a Palestinian state exist?

^^ I can empathize with much of this being an expat here as well.

The whole business both scares and sickens me.

I was here in Thailand when the Carter administration let the Shah of Iran go down the toilet. This was while Thailand was still shell shocked from the abrupt departure of the american military. I was too young and rambunctious to care then.
Since then I've read Winston Churchill's lengthy volumes on WW2 and watched live the collapse of the Twin Towers.
I also watched carefully the subsequent celebrations which took place the arab/muslim world.
I was just talking with one of my staff about muslim violence here in Phuket, that local media has been keeping a lid on.
Scares the crap out of me when I see people rationalizing these terrorists.

The Brits and The US did the best they could to shore up the Shah Earl, but the regimes abuses had gone too far and the people were implacably against it.
Every government knows, but doesn't necessarily want you to know, that when push comes to shove the people have the power.
Carter did the right thing under the circumstances. If remedial action were to happen, it needed to happen some years before.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by sabang

the concept of the Nation state has well outlived it's usefulness.

What's the alternative?

GRReat Question Booner.
This is worthy of a thread.
When the ME issue gets quiet perhaps? Dunno, it's your thread.

Originally Posted by mad_dog

All nations are imagined communities bound by a common belief in origin, decent, language and culture. The idea of sovoreign didn't exist before the 16th century when it was conceptulised by Jean Bodin...

Not sure about that.
Alexander the Great conceptulised someting of the sort when he exported Greek culture, laws and so forth as far as India. That was his primary motivation aside from adventure.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by mad_dog

All nations are imagined communities bound by a common belief in origin, decent, language and culture. The idea of sovoreign didn't exist before the 16th century when it was conceptulised by Jean Bodin...

Not sure about that.
Alexander the Great conceptulised someting of the sort when he exported Greek culture, laws and so forth as far as India. That was his primary motivation aside from adventure.

Yeah, this is the primordialist VS modernist debate.

However the Jews arguement that they have the right to Al Quds and Palestine becuase there wasn't a sovoreign state their before is ludicrous becuase there wasn't an Iraq or a Syria or a Saudia Arabia either. Its like saying Germany and Italy would be ripe for legitimate occupation if it wasn't for Otto Van Mismarck and Victor Emmanuel the 2nd.

^
Well, they gotta live somewhere and why not in their historical homeland dating back before Solomon?

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

^
Well, they gotta live somewhere .?

They do indeed, but creating a myth that no one was living in Palestine while they were being prosecuted across Europe for 1,500 years isn't a good way forward.

Originally Posted by mad_dog

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

^
Well, they gotta live somewhere .?

They do indeed, but creating a myth that no one was living in Palestine while they were being prosecuted across Europe for 1,500 years isn't a good way forward.

I don't think the joos are making out that no one lived there.
They clearly point out that the people who lived in Palestine before the Zionists arrived where living in very poor conditions.
The argument could be made that the forward thinking Zionists actually improved their lot.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

They clearly point out that the people who lived in Palestine before the Zionists arrived where living in very poor conditions.

And that gave them legitimacy to rob them from their land ?

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

The argument could be made that the forward thinking Zionists actually improved their lot.

Oh yeah, what an improvment, killing and making their lives miserable.

Are you really that dillusional Mr Earl ?

The final myth is that the people were living in very poor conditions- as I have said more than time, Palestine had one of the better standards of living in the Arab world. Of course it supported a fraction of the population it does now- so does the whole world. This turning the desert into an oasis lark, apart from being just another non sequitur with nothing to do with the argument, is also just a function of improving technology plus the requirement for the land to be more intensively culitivated to feed a higher population. Palestine did however export dates and olives pre Zionism, quite likely other produce as well.
Must admit those Israeli Jaffa oranges are very good (note they are named after an ancient Phoenician trading port, now part of the Tel Aviv sprawl) although I reckon the rest of the world should boycott them.

^Any documentation? I'd love to see another perspective. Sincerely.

I'll try and dig something up Earl.
I have a book by a bloke called Edward Said. He's like a big time Oxford Don and meant to be an authority- born in Manchester of Lebanese parents btw. Should be something there, but give me time!

Originally Posted by sabang

I'll try and dig something up Earl.
I have a book by a bloke called Edward Said. He's like a big time Oxford Don

"was" mate. I think he died a couple of years ago

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by sabang

I'll try and dig something up Earl.
I have a book by a bloke called Edward Said. He's like a big time Oxford Don and meant to be an authority- born in Manchester of Lebanese parents btw. Should be something there, but give me time!

His book "Orientalism" is a major classic of the genre and well worth reading, pretty much exploded all the western myths about the middle east - it also exploded all the middle-eastern myths about the middle east. He was born in Jerusalem, his dad was a palestinian-american and his mum of lebanese descent, he was theoretically Palestinian but described himsel as a middle-eastern mixture. I'd strongly recommend "Orientalism" to anybody interested in the middle-east.

Islam Through Western Eyes: An article by Edward Said

My mistake Dr. Bob- the fellow I am referring to is one Albert Hourami "born in Manchester of Lebanese parents", I have his book 'A History of the Arab peoples' before me. Died 1993 btw. Edward Said just wrote the introduction!

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by sabang

I'll try and dig something up Earl.
I have a book by a bloke called Edward Said. He's like a big time Oxford Don and meant to be an authority- born in Manchester of Lebanese parents btw. Should be something there, but give me time!

His book "Orientalism" is a major classic of the genre and well worth reading, pretty much exploded all the western myths about the middle east - it also exploded all the middle-eastern myths about the middle east. He was born in Jerusalem, his dad was a palestinian-american and his mum of lebanese descent, he was theoretically Palestinian but described himsel as a middle-eastern mixture. I'd strongly recommend "Orientalism" to anybody interested in the middle-east.

Islam Through Western Eyes: An article by Edward Said

My mistake Dr. Bob- the fellow I am referring to is one Albert Hourami "born in Manchester of Lebanese parents", I have his book 'A History of the Arab peoples' before me. Died 1993 btw. Edward Said just wrote the introduction!

Ah ok, I had a go with that one, a little too dry for me sadly, never managed to finish it

^I've never read it cover to cover yet either, I use it as an occasional reference. Dry academic history.

Anyway, some stuff from this book re Palestinian trade with Europe-
Cotton was exported from northern Palestine to France, from about the 1780's.
Oranges were exported to Europe from Palestine from the 1800's. Still are today.
Olive oil, grain and sesame seeds were exported from Palestine in the 1800's and early 1900's at least. Some dates too, but mainly from Syria.
[This does not include trade within the Ottoman empire- Palestine was basically on the main land routes linking Istanbul to Egypt and Arabia, and the sea route linking Istanbul and northern Africa.]

The fact that Palestine enjoyed a decent standard of living is evidenced by the fact that in a period of 25 years up to 1915 or so, the Arab population of the five largest towns in Palestine more than doubled. And yes, it did attract some emigrants from other parts of the Ottoman Empire, including Jewish merchants- another sign of relative affluence.

My sources are all from the book "A History of the Arab Peoples" by Albert Hourani- you can look in the index under 'Palestine'- agriculture, and trade to ferret them out yourself. This is a very general book, as it covers Arab history from the 7th century to modern times. It is by no means specialised on Palestine, but at minimum we can say-
Yes there was a Palestine for many many centuries, inhabited by the Palestinian people as well as a minority of Oriental Jews.
It was no backwater, neither was it unpopulated. It exported goods to Europe, for several centuries.

Think what you will about the Zionist issue, but at least lets put this particular piece of racial slander behind us!

I thought of starting a thread about Hamas, but will stick this here:

Israel detains 33 Hamas members
By Isabel Kershner

Thursday, May 24, 2007

JERUSALEM: The Israeli Army and internal security agency arrested 33 prominent West Bank Palestinians, including a minister, three lawmakers and three mayors, in raids early this morning, army officials said.
In a statement, the army described those arrested as "senior members of the Hamas terror organization," which it said "exploits governmental institutions to encourage and support terrorist activity." Miri Eisin, a spokeswoman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel, said, "We have information that connects all those arrested to terrorist activity." Another senior Israeli government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the arrests came "on the heels of concrete and genuine indications that these individuals - all of them - pose a clear and present danger to the lives of Israelis."

But the most senior Palestinian to have been arrested, the Palestinian Authority's education minister, Nasser Eddin al-Shaer, had already been detained by the Israeli authorities in August. That arrest came as part of a similar sweep following the kidnapping of an Israeli Army corporal, Gilad Shalit, by Hamas and other militant groups in late June. Shaer was released by a military court in late September, because of what the court said was a lack of evidence against him.

Other Palestinians arrested ran educational and charitable establishments, according to Rabia al-Barghouti, a spokesman for the Palestinian Legislative Council, or parliament. Forty-one Palestinian legislators have remained in Israeli detention since the summer, including the parliament's speaker, Aziz Dweik. All were elected in January 2006, having run on Hamas's "Change and Reform" list, which won a large majority of seats in the 132-member parliament.
"Every time they appear in the military court, the judge extends their detention for another two or three months," Barghouti said, adding that the charges against them include membership in Hamas and the illegal transfer of money.

Link & Entire: Israel detains 33 Hamas members - Print Version - International Herald Tribune



Thoughts? Opinions? Comments?

Originally Posted by sabang

The final myth is that the people were living in very poor conditions- as I have said more than time, Palestine had one of the better standards of living in the Arab world. Of course it supported a fraction of the population it does now- so does the whole world. This turning the desert into an oasis lark, apart from being just another non sequitur with nothing to do with the argument, is also just a function of improving technology plus the requirement for the land to be more intensively culitivated to feed a higher population. Palestine did however export dates and olives pre Zionism, quite likely other produce as well.
Must admit those Israeli Jaffa oranges are very good (note they are named after an ancient Phoenician trading port, now part of the Tel Aviv sprawl) although I reckon the rest of the world should boycott them.

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not. In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land".
If there was an Arab Palestinian culture, a normal population increase over the centuries would have been expected. But with the exception of a relatively few families, the Arabs had no attachment to the Land. If Arabs from southern Syria drifted into Palestine for economic reasons, within a generation or so the cultural tug of Syria or other Arab lands would pull them back. This factor is why the Arab population average remained low until the influx of Jewish financial investments and Jewish people in the late 1800s made the Land economically attractive. Then sometime between 1850 and 1918, the Arab population shot up to 560,000.

Very wrong on several facts Herman. See my link no.68 above for the export stuff to Europe, over several centuries. Also enjoyed a rather fine relative standard of living, just like the Jews living there, did those Palestinians.
The land was known as Palestine, and the people were known as Palestinians, for many centuries. If you can be bothered, look up old maps. I suspect you cannot be bothered, because you are selling an agenda that has been sold to you.
Arab is about as ethnically uncertain as Jew, but I fail to see how the fact that an area that attracts net migration gives cause or justification for the indigenous people to be both dispossessed of their land, and furthermore told they never actually existed.
Finally, your figures are totally skewed by the Zionist propaganda. Are you Jewish?

I'll do what I can a bit later then Herman. I'm off for a couple of beers now. We are dealing with a region, like most of the world, that was not constituted as a nation state but had an ethnic identity. A distinct part of the Ottoman Empire if you like.

Originally Posted by sabang

I'll do what I can a bit later then Herman. I'm off for a couple of beers now. We are dealing with a region, like most of the world, that was not constituted as a nation state but had an ethnic identity. A distinct part of the Ottoman Empire if you like.

Prost and Cheers to you Sabang!
We have beautiful weather right now in Germany and a 3 day weekend. I'll be B-B-Q ing later and drinking a (or maybe more) nice cold Rothaus Märzen beer. Alc.5,6% Vol. gets you where you want to go.

Originally Posted by sabang

Very wrong on several facts Herman. See my link no.68 above for the export stuff to Europe, over several centuries. Also enjoyed a rather fine relative standard of living, just like the Jews living there, did those Palestinians.
The land was known as Palestine, and the people were known as Palestinians, for many centuries. If you can be bothered, look up old maps. I suspect you cannot be bothered, because you are selling an agenda that has been sold to you.
Arab is about as ethnically uncertain as Jew, but I fail to see how the fact that an area that attracts net migration gives cause or justification for the indigenous people to be both dispossessed of their land, and furthermore told they never actually existed.
Finally, your figures are totally skewed by the Zionist propaganda. Are you Jewish?

I'm afraid much of my research has been limited to Zionist controlled internet.
I would very much like to have a well rounded perspective.
Could you reference some material which isn't "Zionist Propaganda"?