Will the GOP Force a Govt Shutdown and/or Debt Default?

**slackula** · 13-10-2013, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

No Deal: Obama rejects House plan

Because it contains a massive poison pill as I have already linked to before.

The House Republican plan to extend the debt ceiling for six weeks would permanently ban the Treasury Department from using extraordinary measures to avoid default, congressional aides said.

The provision would ban practices, used by Democratic and Republican administrations for decades, which have effectively allowed the Treasury to limit investments in pensions and other funds when the government bumps up against its borrowing limit. These steps have extended the time that Treasury can continue borrowing and paying the nation’s bills while Congress debates terms for raising the debt ceiling.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/1...ency-measures/

**Boon Mee** · 13-10-2013, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

No Deal: Obama rejects House plan

Because it contains a massive poison pill as I have already linked to before.

The House Republican plan to extend the debt ceiling for six weeks would permanently ban the Treasury Department from using extraordinary measures to avoid default, congressional aides said.

The provision would ban practices, used by Democratic and Republican administrations for decades, which have effectively allowed the Treasury to limit investments in pensions and other funds when the government bumps up against its borrowing limit. These steps have extended the time that Treasury can continue borrowing and paying the nation’s bills while Congress debates terms for raising the debt ceiling.

House Debt-Ceiling Plan Would Ban ‘Emergency’ Measures - Washington Wire - WSJ

The borrowing can't go on forever and that's why this so-called 'poison pill' as you refer to it was included.

**barbaro** · 13-10-2013, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

No Deal: Obama rejects House plan

Because it contains a massive poison pill as I have already linked to before.

The House Republican plan to extend the debt ceiling for six weeks would permanently ban the Treasury Department from using extraordinary measures to avoid default, congressional aides said.

[I]The provision would ban practices, used by Democratic and Republican administrations for decades, which have effectively allowed the Treasury to limit investments in pensions and other funds when the government bumps up against its borrowing limit. These steps have extended the time that Treasury can continue borrowing and paying the nation’s bills while Congress debates terms for raising the debt ceiling.

This is a house of cards.

**Warrior** · 13-10-2013, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

a couple of fun facts about the GOP and the debt ceiling:

nine years ago, 206 house republicans voted to add $800,000,000,000 to the nation's debt.

there were no strings attached to their vote. it was a 'clean' bill.

104 of those republicans are still in the house or senate today.

here they are:

104 Republicans Who Are In Congress Today Voted To Increase The Debt Ceiling Under Bush Without Hostage Threats | ThinkProgress

This is again proof of how hypocrite politicians are.

**slackula** · 13-10-2013, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The borrowing can't go on forever and that's why this so-called 'poison pill' as you refer to it was included.

Republicans weren't complaining when Dubya put a trillion dollar plus war on the national credit card. Wonder why?

**bsnub** · 13-10-2013, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Republicans weren't complaining when Dubya put a trillion dollar plus war on the national credit card. Wonder why?

That charge is still adding up, but they just roll it conveniently into Obama's budget. Lame Hypocrites.

**sabang** · 13-10-2013, 05:27 PM

If they're really so bothered about the debt, why do they resolutely oppose repealing the failed Bush tax cuts for the Rich?

**bsnub** · 15-10-2013, 07:32 AM

The teaparty hijacking of the Veterans march is proving to have a massive blow back of anger from Vets who feel they were used by teaparty extremists for political gain. Duh..

Confederate flags flapped in the breeze Sunday, Tea Party banners demanded “Impeach Obama” and a speaker urged our 44th president to “put down the Quran” as a small crowd marched on the National World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C., to demand that it stay open during the government shutdown.

The event saw Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, his mascot Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, and 2008 Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin, deliver fiery anti-Obama speeches. MSNBC’s “Daily Rundown,” on Monday, found it curious that architects of the shutdown would be marching against the shutdown.

Now, the official organizing group –the Million Veterans March on the Memorials — has taken offense at the offensive Tea Party presence, saying Monday on its Facebook page:

“The political agenda put forth by a local organizer in Washington, D.C., was not in alignment with our message. We felt disheartened that some would seek to hijack the narrative for political gain. The core principal is about all Americans honoring Veterans in a peaceful and apolitical manner.”

The Sunday protest was blatantly political.

Larry Klayman of a group called Freedom Watch role to demand that “this president leave town” and told Obama to “put down the Quran.”

Palin ripped into Obama, saying: ”You look around and you see these barricades and ask yourself, Is this any way that a commander in chief would show his respect, his gratitude to our military. This is a matter of shutdown priorities.”

Cruz accused Obama of using veterans as pawns in the shutdown, saying, “Why is the federal government spending money to erect barricades to keep veterans out of the memorial?”

Veterans group to Cruz & Palin: Don’t ‘hijack’ us - Strange Bedfellows — Politics News

**raycarey** · 15-10-2013, 09:25 AM

quick question for the t-hadists and GOP enablers...

how's that shutdown working out for you?

the most recent poll data is in:

74% of americans disapprove of republicans

Government shutdown poll: GOP disapproval grows - Lucy McCalmont - POLITICO.com

**sabang** · 15-10-2013, 10:04 AM

Makes you wonder what these fine 'patriots' are gonna turn to next in their desperation- burn down some government buildings? They've blown it big time, the sick joke is on them.

**jamescollister** · 15-10-2013, 10:49 AM

I hope they do default, go broke and all the other countries in the same boat follow.
2009 sent me broke, couldn't go to the bank to borrow money, that my kids and their kids would pay back.

World has not recovered since the GFC and is not likely to unless some big changes are made. World will not end if the US goes broke/defaults or balances it budget, sun will rise with some very unhappy people, but the world will turn.

The bottom will be hit and the US will start to climb out of recession, it's debts gone and a bad credit rating, just like a lot of people who lost everything in 2009.

This borrowing from future generations is wrong and can't be sustained, the system is broken, no one has come up with a plan to fix it.
Time to start over, get the pain out of the way, if they had let the system follow the capitalist way 2008/9, then none of this would be happening now.
Jim

**sabang** · 15-10-2013, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by jamescollister

The bottom will be hit and the US will start to climb out of recession

That has been happening in the US for the last four years- but it's a crappy recovery. Over 90% of the wealth being created is going to 1% of the population, already rich, and the good jobs lost in the GFC are being replaced by mainly shit jobs. America is becoming more third world by the year, and the Teatraitors are a perfect illustration of that phenomenon. Shame that the GOP doesn't attract people of the calibre of Eisenhower any more, to put the traitors back in their kennel.

**larvidchr** · 15-10-2013, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

Makes you wonder what these fine 'patriots' are gonna turn to next in their desperation- burn down some government buildings? They've blown it big time, the sick joke is on them.

Maybe it is just a bit to early for the dem's and their supporters to celebrate a glorious victory, people have to remember from what point all this started, Obama care is a sorry watered down health care system, but better than nothing which doesn't say a lot really, the Republicans already have a tight grip on the Government economic gonads, and Obama has not exactly been the dem. flavour of the month with many disgruntled liberals who have been disappointed with him, the rallying around the Dem's in this conflict is what can be expected, but just under the surface lurks a lot of discontent.

The liberal biased media who brilliantly manage to turn focus on one single confederate flag at a rally of hundreds, wont be able to keep fooling people by diverting the attention away from the real day to day problems.

Here is a reality check cold shower from the BBC News.

9 October 2013 Last updated at 19:23

Shutdown showdown: Have the Democrats already lost?

By Anthony Zurcher BBC News, Washington

President Obama and the Democrats are fighting the shutdown battle on Republican ground

The Democratic Party has beaten back every attempt to dismantle healthcare reform, while Republicans have been divided over strategy. But with a budget debate focused on conservative priorities and inconclusive poll numbers, while congressional elections remain a long way off, do Democratic claims of victory ring hollow?

Spirits are high in the Democratic Party more than a week after the start of the government shutdown. "We are winning," a senior administration official said to the Wall Street Journal. Representative Jim McDermott of Washington state told Slate that Republicans "have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it".

But behind that rhetoric lies an uncomfortable truth for some: the entire budget showdown is being fought on Republican terms.

Even if the Democrats get what they want - a "clean" continuing resolution funding the government and a vote to raise the debt ceiling - conservatives will end up ahead, thanks to the results of debt limit negotiations two years ago.

The Senate has committed to conservative-supported spending levels set in January by the sequester - deep cuts to domestic and military spending enacted after Democrats and Republicans failed to reach a budget compromise in 2011.

Representative Jim McDermott says Republicans have to admit they lost
"The Republicans have pocketed that number and pivoted back to deficit reduction," says Robert Borosage, co-director of the progressive advocacy group Campaign for America's Future. "It now appears as if Democrats are just beginning negotiations instead of everyone realising they've already made concessions."

Bryce Covert, economic policy editor at the liberal blog ThinkProgress, says that unless Democrats start aggressively pushing their priorities, they may win the shutdown battle but lose the policy war.
"If the Democrats don't play offence and get past this defensive crouch, they will never be able to advance their vision," Ms Covert says. "They've got to set goalposts and delineate the field of argument, not just for now, but for the future."
Democrats should be talking about things like universal preschool care, raising the minimum wage, and paid family leave, Ms Covert says. That way, when President Barack Obama enters talks with Republicans, Democrats will be less likely to end up with the kind of uneven compromise that progressives feel Mr Obama has agreed to in the past.

"There's a modest plurality view that Republicans are more to blame”
Carroll Doherty Pew Research Center
"We've been through a lot of crisis battles like this since 2010 - the Democrats start out strong, and the end result is capitulation," Ms Covert says. "Republicans have been very effective in winning spending cuts over and over again."

Democrats have been encouraged by recent public opinion surveys. Party supporters were buzzing over a Quinnipiac survey giving a generic Democrat a 43% to 34% lead over a generic Republican in the 2014 congressional elections - a margin large enough to suggest Democrats could regain control of the House of Representatives.
But generic matchups don't take into account the advantages of Republican incumbents and the demographics of congressional districts, and they mean little if Democrats fail to field competitive candidates.

So far, while polls show Republicans shouldering more blame for the shutdown, Democrats have not achieved the sort of decisive margin in surveys that President Bill Clinton had during his shutdown confrontation in 1995.
"The advantage for Clinton was much more clear-cut - 20 points or more, early in the shutdown," says Carroll Doherty, associate director of Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which has surveyed extensively on the shutdown.
"In every poll that's been done, there's a modest plurality view that Republicans are more to blame. It's not overwhelming."
Meanwhile, independent voters - who often decide the outcome of elections - are blaming both sides equally.

Mr Doherty says that the latest Pew survey asked who was at fault for the shutdown, and 24% of independents named both sides - even though that wasn't a provided response. "Independents are more or less saying, 'a pox on both houses,'" he says.

Democrats shouldn't expect any advantage to hold until the 2014 midterm congressional elections, more than a year away. Even after the 1995 shutdowns, both parties had recovered their standing by the time election day arrived.

Polls show independent voters blame both parties for the shutdown

"Any talk about 2014 is just speculation at this point," Mr Doherty says. "The polling so far is very focused on the short-term, and not how much it's affecting the Democratic and Republican brands."
Voters in 2014 are going to be angry and looking to punish someone, Mr Borosage says.
The Democrats, as the party with the presidency, will have to work hard to focus public ire on Republicans.
"Next November, we'll have an economy that's not very good, with declining wages and low employment," Mr Borosage says. "The coming debate is going to frame the perception of who's to blame."

If Democrats lose the policy battle and underperform in the 2014 elections, today's "winning" will end up looking a lot like defeat.

BBC News - Shutdown showdown: Have the Democrats already lost?

**sabang** · 15-10-2013, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Maybe it is just a bit to early for the dem's and their supporters to celebrate a glorious victory

No 'glorious victory' at all here larv- the loser is America in general, but also foreign visitors, and international financial markets. Everyone loses (except maybe the chinks)- but the people of amerka and the world in general overwhelmingly know where the fault lies.

**barbaro** · 15-10-2013, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by jamescollister

I hope they do default, go broke and all the other countries in the same boat follow.
2009 sent me broke, couldn't go to the bank to borrow money, that my kids and their kids would pay back.

Same in my family, James.

A close relative needed a business loan to start up work again for payroll and other expenses. Been doing this for 40 years. You pay off the lon during the Spring and Summer and then make profits.

The same banks he did business with for 40 years said, "no." No loans, no way, under any circumstances.

The business went broke and was making a profit up to the GFC.

World has not recovered since the GFC and is not likely to unless some big changes are made. World will not end if the US goes broke/defaults or balances it budget, sun will rise with some very unhappy people, but the world will turn.

I see it the same way. Humans will continue to live and eat. But the paradigm has and will change.

.....This borrowing from future generations is wrong and can't be sustained, the system is broken, no one has come up with a plan to fix it.

The won even plan to fix it --> they don't care.

**sabang** · 15-10-2013, 01:44 PM

I think ray was referring to a single issue- Obamas handling of the government shutdown.

Indeed, there is plenty of Liberal disillusionment with Obama, quite understandable too because he's been a republican president. Of course, a disillusioned liberal voting republican is about as likely as a disappointed teabagger voting democrat.

**bsnub** · 15-10-2013, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

So now we have two more posters admitting to some level of liberal disappointment with Obama

The disappointment is deep make no doubt. Obama is a grave disappointment to most liberals. He was swept into office with great excitement. He has become another Bush. He had a chance to get single payer healthcare through when the democrats had a super majority and he failed we had to settle for ACA which is still better then what we have. But not getting single payer through is a disappointment.

**raycarey** · 15-10-2013, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

He had a chance to get single payer healthcare through when the democrats had a super majority

are you sure about that?

i remember obama not having the votes because some dem senators wouldn't back a single payer system.

max baucus comes immediately to mind, and i'm fairly certain there were others.

**bsnub** · 15-10-2013, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by bsnub

He had a chance to get single payer healthcare through when the democrats had a super majority

are you sure about that?

i remember obama not having the votes because some dem senators wouldn't back a single payer system.

max baucus comes immediately to mind, and i'm fairly certain there were others.

Ya greedy money grubbing bastards.

**TonyBKK** · 15-10-2013, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Polls show independent voters blame both parties for the shutdown

Sorry but this is misleading. Yes, independents blame both parties, but the Republicans receive much more of the blame than the Democrats.

Polls have shown that independents rightly blame the Republican Taliban for the shutdown by a wide margin.

The latest poll by the Washington Post and ABC News on Oct 14th shows the gap widening-

Poll: Republicans losing no-win game

Poll: Republicans losing no-win game

**Albert Shagnastier** · 15-10-2013, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

Obama is a grave disappointment to most liberals. He was swept into office with great excitement. He has become another Bush.

I think they are both puppets controlled by the same puppeteer.

Funny watching all those riot police blocking the vets from entering the memorial grounds. Government can afford riot police but not a few staff to keep a memorial open?

The police should've opened the memorial and let the vets in - after all, there were enough of them to staff it.

**Boon Mee** · 15-10-2013, 04:26 PM

Don't Forget...The Democrats Have Some Demands And Are "Taking Hostages"

Naturally the Statist media narrative is that only the GOP has any demands in the shutdown/debt ceiling fight but that's far from the truth.

The supposed deal that Republican Senators were tossing around this weekend was killed mainly because it kept the current sequester levels of spending in place.

Why are we not surprised?

The Democrats want to keep spending like the proverbial drunken sailors on shore leave and you're Racist so shut up!

**jamescollister** · 15-10-2013, 08:04 PM

People should disbelieve everything, in the old days the Romans had the gladiators to keep the masses amused. Today we have TV and the net, the peons watch taking one of the 2 sides, both combatants are there for entertainment, nothing more.

Who runs the USA, or most countries, not bought and paid for politicians, they serve others, whether they know or not.

GFC, who lost and who won, certain people not only made money, but more importantly gained more power over the world.

In the US, the Federal reserve bank has gained power, a private bank, run and owned by who. A bunch of patriotic Americans, or international groups.
Same groups that have been around for years, funded Stalin, Hitler and probably the Romans.

Don't think they care about a nation or it's people, just power and control. Jim

**Mr Lick** · 15-10-2013, 10:55 PM

Imporvements in negotiations but no solution reported as yet. The writing seems to be on the wall for Boehner and Cruz as Obama won't concede health care alterations.

Obama snubs proposed US House fiscal plan

The White House has rejected a proposal from House of Representatives Republicans to extend the debt limit and reopen the federal government.

The White House criticised what it called an attempt to appease a small group of conservatives, but praised a parallel bipartisan Senate plan.

The House plan proposed altering provisions of President Barack Obama's "Obamacare" health law.

The US must raise its $16.7tn (£10.5tn) debt limit by Thursday or face default.

It remains unclear whether Congress can agree a deal in time to avert economic calamity in the US and across the world.

Both the Senate plan, outlined on Monday evening, and the House Republicans' plan, revealed on Tuesday, would fund the government through mid-January and raise the debt ceiling until February, creating room for negotiators to agree a longer-term budget.

President Obama also said there had been "progress" in negotiations

The Senate proposal would delay for two years a per-employee tax paid by companies and labour unions on workers' healthcare plans.

The House plan, meanwhile, would delay a medical device tax used to pay for healthcare subsidies under the law.

Both proposals would include income verification requirements for Americans seeking public subsidies to purchase health insurance.

On Tuesday, Mr Obama rejected what the White House described as Republicans' attempt to extort "ransom" while the government remains shut and the threat of a debt default looms, calling the tactic "ransom".

"Unfortunately, the latest proposal from House Republicans does just that in a partisan attempt to appease a small group of Tea Party Republicans who forced the government shutdown in the first place," said White House spokeswoman Amy Brundage, referring to a faction of hardline conservatives who hold significant sway in the House.

"Democrats and Republicans in the Senate have been working in a bipartisan, good-faith effort to end the manufactured crises that have already harmed American families and business owners. With only a couple days remaining until the United States exhausts its borrowing authority, it's time for the House to do the same."

Later, Republican House Speaker John Boehner said both parties were trying to find a way forward.

"No decisions about what exactly we will do" have been made, he said.

Mr Obama is scheduled to meet with House Democrats on Tuesday afternoon as Thursday's debt ceiling deadline inches ever closer.

**Albert Shagnastier** · 15-10-2013, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Lick

The US must raise its $16.7tn (£10.5tn) debt limit by Thursday or face default.

Isn't it up to the creditors to raise the debt limit rather then the borrowers?

Oh no, that's right, the borrowers have a money tree or printing press as it's called.

How long till folks see the absurdness of this?

tick tock tick tock.

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