Thread: A Real Discussion re: Islam

Look, ENT, whatever... you are "one of those", you know the guys who pull endless "facts" from wacko websites that "prove" that Jews or someone else is out to take over the world... you list a whole shitload of them on a post.... none has any relevance to anything but the particular conspiracy theory you're into. And more importantly, because you use these "facts" only to reinforce a pre-existing condition (in your case, hatred and fear of ISLAM), you are not at all interested in seeing these facts debunked or contextualized.So, no. No fun playing with you. I'm into this thing where information is used in order to think, not to shut down any possibility of thinking.

But if you want to discuss anything in the video as it relates to the topic of Islam, I'd be more than happy to join you.

I like her stress on ijihad, which I've recently been reading about in Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples. I think that Christian scripture contains the seeds of its own destruction and that we were fortunate that Christianity opened the way to the Enlightenment and the Reformation both, thus allowing Christian societies to develop into liberal democracies and the like.

I've often wondered what it is in Islam that somehow blocks this kind of development and it seems to me that Manji wants to suggest that it is the male-dominated hierarchy and the repressive elements in tribal culture that do so and not necessarily anything in the faith itself. This is part of what she means when she says the problem is Muslims. And not what morons like piwi want to take away from it.

What do you think?

^Hey Brain dead are you saying I fundamentally disagreed with what Irshad had to say?

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Look, ENT, whatever... you are "one of those", you know the guys who pull endless "facts" from wacko websites that "prove" that Jews or someone else is out to take over the world... you list a whole shitload of them on a post.... none has any relevance to anything but the particular conspiracy theory you're into. And more importantly, because you use these "facts" only to reinforce a pre-existing condition (in your case, hatred and fear of ISLAM), you are not at all interested in seeing these facts debunked or contextualized.So, no. No fun playing with you. I'm into this thing where information is used in order to think, not to shut down any possibility of thinking.

But if you want to discuss anything in the video as it relates to the topic of Islam, I'd be more than happy to join you.

I like her stress on ijihad, which I've recently been reading about in Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples. I think that Christian scripture contains the seeds of its own destruction and that we were fortunate that Christianity opened the way to the Enlightenment and the Reformation both, thus allowing Christian societies to develop into liberal democracies and the like.

I've often wondered what it is in Islam that somehow blocks this kind of development and it seems to me that Manji wants to suggest that it is the male-dominated hierarchy and the repressive elements in tribal culture that do so and not necessarily anything in the faith itself. This is part of what she means when she says the problem is Muslims. And not what morons like piwi want to take away from it.

What do you think?

1) Well, in reply to your first para. above, no I'm not "one of those" as you describe. You bang on abut wacko websites that you falsely claim that I've listed in a single post. So which post is that? It's as though you have some sort of acccreditting list of ratings for what's wacko or not, which of course could only be compiled by a fool who thinks he knows everything.

Conspiracy theories? Not menioned by me. Expressed hatred and fear of Islam,...me? No.
Debunked claims and statements? Bring them all on, brother, just stick to thread topic.

Jews taking over the world was only refered to by you, in mentioning "The Protocols of Zion".
Your last sentence in that first paragraph is even more bizare, as it's you who's attempting to shut the argument down and limit any free thinking on the topic. Crazy.

Read widely, mate, read all websites as much as possible, not just your favourites.

Also, you might note that in this thread, I haven't given any website references to my assertions.

2) To the points made in the video you posted.

Manji brings some interesting concepts to light, chiefly the idea of critical thinking within Islam. I personally disagree with her opinion that anything much can be achieved by hers or anyone's efforts to unravel, refute, contradict or nulify any of the five pillars of Islam with all their re-enforcing teachings.

Since UK recently legalised gay marriage, a couple of Pakistani girls got wed and the resulting conflict created within Muslim debate in various Asian/Islamic on the subject has been no less than vitriolic, with only a tiny minority of voices expressing any kind of support for openly gay unions in Muslim society. So, no go, no-one's gonna change that Islamic nicety in the near future, even though homosexuality is secretly and not so secretly practiced constantly by the hypocrites of Islam.

No way will Islam relax its rule re. marriage of a Muslim to a non-Muslim, either. Conversion to Islam is obligatory as the wife in Islamic view belongs to the husband, and if she can't obey him and his duty to enforce Islam, tough, she's thrown out of the window , in more ways than one. So that's not gonna change in a hurry either.

Various other Islamic rules, such as taxing non believers, the use of non believers as slaves or chattels, the right to concubinage and polygamy, all enforce a pre-medieval mid-eastern cultural attitude inherent within Islam.

That's not going to change in a hurry, either. No amount of critical thinking by an infinitesimaly minute number of Muslims, is going to have any effect whatsoever in persuading Islamic leaders to give up the status, wealth and privileges enjoyed by them and their supporters. Why? Because who would give up the "good life" to benefit strangers unconditionally? Only a saint could, a humanitarian idealist, which, as amply demonstrated by the actions of a large proportion of Muslim is not even remotely likely. Greed and fear of social rejection and death rules them.

I assume that you watched the vid. of the Sunni crowd attacking and murdering some Salafists which was posted earlier in this thread. Did you notice the black robed women in ranks chanting and urging on their menfolk to murder? I saw the same kind of behaviour in London at Hyde Park, when London Muslims demonstrated against Salman Rushdi in summer 1989. The women marched in ranks, chanting, while the men whipped themselves up into a frenzy, beating themselves on the chest, dancing around, ritually, all screaming for thedath of Rushdy. Totally insane.

Did you watch the video posted earlier here by piwanoi, of the apostate Muslim lady and her opinion of what may or may not be done to modify Islam? Given that she was talking from her experience as a lapsed Muslim, don't you think that her opinions counts in this discussion?

So what's gonna break that cycle of religious indoctrination, subservience and violent expression of Islamic philosophy?

It's patently built on the ramblings of a mad man in Arabia, cobbled up from Judaism, Xtianity, his local contemporary poetic philosophy and local pre-dark ages Arab culture, but by one who was cunning enough to claim divine inspiration to be able to fool the local tribes into heading off on a prelonged campaign of religiously inspired warfare.
How that works, is that if the human mind can be caused not to think independently, but simply to respond to commands, as directed by a prophet or "god", the human concerned, believing that authority, but knowing nothing of the big picture, may be induced to act and perform, much like a dog, knowing that a reward would be the result of obedience.

A kind of Pavlov's bell situation, amplified by religious fervour which is induced by repetitive chanting of so called magical or holy names and words etc. and ritual actions. All religions, magic and political crowd control rely on that kind of conditioning and control system. Powerful stuff. Even sports do, or any situation where great effort is needed to overcome obstacles and toreach a desired goal. Sometimes drugs are used to achieve similar results.

Islam was initially invented by Mohammed just to facilitate his tribe's efforts in warfare against other neighbouring tribes, then other local Arabs' quest for and control of wealth in a trade war around the Red Sea, then against a civilised world that had just suffered a political power vacuum due to the collapse of the Roman empire.
Easy pickings for those driven by ecstatic religious fervour, kinda like "Got mit uns" of the German fascists, or mabe a bit like the Berserkers (bear shirts), Estonian/Baltic Sea pirates, worse han the Vikings, who, high on amanita muscaria mushrooms, went into frenzy, berserk, before starting to attack their targets.

Interestingly, and similarly, Xtian Methodism was designed by Calvin and Wessley as a method for crowd control needed in Britain at the time, then as an aid in smoothing the way through the Indian subcontinent during British colonial expansion there in the 1800s.

I mentioned earlier that Wahabi rule Sunni, thus around 90% of Muslims, and ignore the fact as much as you like, Wahabi aim is world domination through either, conversion of the entire world population to Islam or through executing every non-Muslim.

Read up on Al Quradhawi and his views of how the world should run.

Islam is no more nor less than a religiously and culturally hypocritical political philosophy designed to facilitate Arab control of all wordly affairs.

No, I don't hate Islam, nor fear it. I simply despise it. I am irreligious and often irreverent.

Good post ENT, Yeah I liked the Video in my post #80, but what would she know in comparison to all the "armchair experts" on the "joys of Islam" ? I liked the bit were she said any one who had read the Koran and believed in it had lost their marbles

Thanks for your comments on my previous post. Gonna watch our vid, look for further relative material then be back.

Originally Posted by ENT

Your last sentence in that first paragraph is even more bizare, as it's you who's attempting to shut the argument down and limit any free thinking on the topic. Crazy.

You mention the number of Muslims present in Ireland now and you give a figure for the future, a figure drawn from the Pew Report, a report that folks without your hysterical agenda have taken as "proof" that the demographic "tide" is not happening and is not going to happen.

Look at the figures in the report a little and what you see is that Ireland and the UK have the highest Muslim fertility rates of all European countries (3 children per) and yet Ireland's tiny Muslim population is expected to grow by 188% and the UK's by half that. Both countries expect immigration to continue, but it is obvious that immigration to Ireland will be higher by percentage.

So it's clear that when the Muslim population of Ireland "rockets up" from 0.9% of the population to a whole 2.2% it won't just be because so many Irish men prefer it up the keester of a Saturday night. Immigration will make up a significant proportion.

This, of course, won't stop folks like yourself from indulging in the panty-twisting and white-fright rhetoric of impending world domination.

So... as part of your "free-thinking" attempt to demonstrate the coming demographic apocalypse of all that is good and white and Christian in Ireland, you've chosen to take figures from a radical Christian website that has itself taken figures from a widely disseminated and written about report that clearly debunks what it is you are trying to prove.

You are shutting down the thinking here, ENT, not I.

As I'm sure you are aware, the same kind of demographic scare rhetoric has been used in the past against the Irish themselves, you know, those dirty ignorant peasants with their massive families composed of drunken fathers and cow-like priest-bedeviled fucking Catholic women acting as a vanguard for the Vatican and its goal of turning the world into a Papist village.

I will say, however, that I agree that the continuing increase in Muslim populations across Europe represents a threat to whatever rudiments of liberal-democracy actually survives in the peninsula.

Not because of the fanaticism of the immigrants in clinging to what I agree is an outmoded set of beliefs and practices, but in the racist nationalism that passes for democracy in most European nations.

There is only one way that Muslims would prefer to remain isolated and relatively poor in the abundance of Europe's shopping opportunities and that is if they are excluded from the banquet, which they are. Muslims in North America, in spite of what the David Duke-inspired White Terror folks proclaim on websites, have less difficulty simply blending in and getting on with their lives.

^The guy in the video does not share your sentiments about Muslims in America , maybe he's been reading David Duke propaganda eh

Originally Posted by mao say dung

we were fortunate that Christianity opened the way to the Enlightenment

It didn't. We had our Age of Enlightenment in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

I like this one better than the edited version presented above. The pro-Islam guy should in all honesty provoke sympathy from many of the posters on this thread BECAUSE HE THINKS JUST LIKE THEM, only he's smarter and no doubt much better educated.

It's hard to deny much of what he says.

Wafa is dynamite and she also is hard to disagree with.

Originally Posted by sabang

It didn't. We had our Age of Enlightenment in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

Hardly. Use a little logic there, sabang. Do you really think that any of the Enlightenment philosophers grew up with secular educations?

Or is it more likely that the dialectic set up within Christendom by the Reformation and the radical reinterpretation of certain tenets of the faith that that entailed enabled the emancipation of the Enlightenment?

Do you really think it's just a coincidence that no other civilization arrived at the liberal modernity that we live in other than Christian ones?

More than a little silly, that.

You should look up stuff about how Monks were the only ones allowed to have books, etc. Or how people were jailed and sometimes tortured for proving the world was round, and that the Earth rotated around the Sun.

Religion was, and is, only a barrier to enlightenment.

^Maybe you should meet some intelligent educated Christians and take a look at European history rather than little videos with these interesting factoids about who had books.

Shakespear was a Christian. Do you think he got all his shit from the oral tradition?

Just as an example of what a fertile field for subversive thought Christianity was try reading something like Christopher Hill's The World Turned Upside Down:Radical Ideas During the English Revolution.

When old Jesus said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it," you can see the undermining of tribal cultures and the vague beginnings of the individualism necessary to create liberal, rule-of-law societies.

I was surprised when Manji quoted a similar text from the Koran. She knew exactly what she was doing when she did so, suggesting that just as Christianity contained the seeds of dialectic that could and did lead to liberalization, so does Islam.

It's a better approach to argument with believers than something along the lines of "It's all horseshit, you dumb peasant". Or so it would appear.

Hmmm, so you prefer to dodge my reply to your last post and instead concentrate on the one I made before re. Ireland's Muslim problem, just another red-herring attempt on your part to avoid discussing other points points I've raised concerning Islam's origins and methodology.

You say; "You mention the number of Muslims present in Ireland now and you give a figure for the future, a figure drawn from the Pew Report, a report that folks without your hysterical agenda have taken as "proof" that the demographic "tide" is not happening and is not going to happen.

Look at the figures in the report a little and what you see is that Ireland and the UK have the highest Muslim fertility rates of all European countries (3 children per) and yet Ireland's tiny Muslim population is expected to grow by 188% and the UK's by half that. Both countries expect immigration to continue, but it is obvious that immigration to Ireland will be higher by percentage.

So it's clear that when the Muslim population of Ireland "rockets up" from 0.9% of the population to a whole 2.2% it won't just be because so many Irish men prefer it up the keester of a Saturday night. Immigration will make up a significant proportion."



Well, you do say,....but you could moderate your hysterical little whimper and stick to actual words posted, instead of your rather distorted interpretations of what was posted. Where did you get the idea from that "many Irish men prefer it up the keester of a Saturday night
."? A rather odd idea to say the least, but possibly one shared by you and your mates at tye local. Never mind, we'll let you indulge your fantasies, there's no law against that,...yet.

Now back to realities, obviously there'll be increasing Muslim immigration into Ireland, and likely at a much higher rate than UK's unless Ireland puts a cap on it's intake of new immigrants as UK has recently, apparently, successfully done. Nonetheless, it'll be a high breeding rate among Muslims that'll contribute to the expected 125,000 Muslim population by 2030, rather han immigration or conversion.

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You say; " impending world domination."

Yup, that's the Islamic end goal.

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You say;"So... as part of your "free-thinking" attempt to demonstrate the coming demographic apocalypse of all that is good and white and Christian in Ireland, you've chosen to take figures from a radical Christian website that has itself taken figures from a widely disseminated and written about report that clearly debunks what it is you are trying to prove.

I didn't make any such assertion, neither did I take my figures from any "radical Xtian websites", as you claim. It seems, though, that you're more familiar wth hose han I am as you keep going on about them and other dodgy sites,...strange chap.

Which report are you referring to that debunks what I assert, anyway?

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You say;"As I'm sure you are aware, the same kind of demographic scare rhetoric has been used in the past against the Irish themselves, you know, those dirty ignorant peasants with their massive families composed of drunken fathers and cow-like priest-bedeviled fucking Catholic women acting as a vanguard for the Vatican and its goal of turning the world into a Papist village."



In your neck of the working class Anglo-Saxon woods, maybe.

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You say; "I will say, however, that I agree that the continuing increase in Muslim populations across Europe represents a threat to whatever rudiments of liberal-democracy actually survives in the peninsula.

Not because of the fanaticism of the immigrants in clinging to what I agree is an outmoded set of beliefs and practices, but in the racist nationalism that passes for democracy in most European nations."



How the hell do you figure that one? How does "racist nationalism that passes for democracy in most European nations", pose a threat to "whatever rudiments of liberal-democracy (sic) that survives in the peninsula"? And what peninsula? I wasn't aware that Europe was one!

Well, I disagree with your contention on that point too. No way will racist nationalism give way to Islam. Rather the opposite, don't you think?
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You say; "There is only one way that Muslims would prefer to remain isolated and relatively poor in the abundance of Europe's shopping opportunities and that is if they are excluded from the banquet, which they are."

So you reckon they'd be happy completely isolated, then? And ya reckon they already are?
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You say;"Muslims in North America, in spite of what the David Duke-inspired White Terror folks proclaim on websites, have less difficulty simply blending in and getting on with their lives."


,
Probably because someone will be more likely to smack 'em back hard f they tried any take over bids in Latino and Black dominated US gang culture. So they pull their necks in to survive, keeping a low profile anywhere where they're outnumbered in a hostile territory, as usual. Never noticed howt they grovel when the're dominated? Conditioning does that to them, it's in their culture, mate, a master/slave mentality.

But, give them half an inch and they'll take a mile or six, guaranteed, just as they're now doing by taking advantage of Irish generosity and are building their ambitious new caliphate near Dublin.

Fek, they already have a bloody great beautiful mosque in Dublin, built for them by the Irish way back in the late1980s! And it still isn't good or big enough for them!!!

Originally Posted by sabang

Religion was, and is, only a barrier to enlightenment.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by ENT

But, give them half an inch and they'll take a mile or six, guaranteed, just as they're now doing by taking advantage of Irish generosity and are building their ambitious new caliphate near Dublin.

No, not really. The North American democracies, while obviously under strain from the American attempts to maintain imperial hegemony here, there and everywhere, are older and have developed more consistently in a liberal direction than any of the democracies in Europe, so the rule of law tradition, as well as the equality before the law provisions of our respective "constitutions", no matter how imperfect in theory and practice, make it easier for folks like Muslims to integrate.

If we start going the European route and granting all sorts of special rights based on their religion instead of granting them jobs and the possibility to sit down over coffee with white people who don't get nervous or angry because they're different then we'll start having Euro-style problems.

I don't think it's impossible that this will happen, especially in the US where radical right-wad Christian racists grow more vocal with each passing election cycle. But we're not really that similar to Europeans, regardless of all the cold-war bumpf about the West and all that.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

^Maybe you should meet some intelligent educated Christians and

Very few and far between, as most are now either dead, or blinkered. Knowledge does not arise from belief, but from experience, observation and the unfettered evaluation and questioning of all things.

^How would you know? You people have a website for that too?

Originally Posted by ENT

In your neck of the working class Anglo-Saxon woods, maybe.

Sorry. In ignoring your sophistries in the service of dull old racist horseshit, I missed this and I must say it is a good one. Who says the right lacks irony?

Which neck of the woods do you imagine your racist view of Muslim people resides in?

Originally Posted by mao say dung

The pro-Islam guy should in all honesty provoke sympathy from many of the posters on this thread BECAUSE HE THINKS JUST LIKE THEM, only he's smarter and no doubt much better educated.

It's hard to deny much of what he says.

Only if you're as rabid an Islamic as he.

The guy's an obvious brain-basher, a nutter, liar, denialist and bully, so if you reckon he's got brains, smart and so on, then you have my sympathies.

The lady had far more self control and whit than he.

I liked the bit when she really stuck it in with the comment that she didn't care if he wanted to worship stones, as long as he didn't throw them at him, pissed him off, a nice little allusion to the original people of the stones, prohably Ba'alists that were in direct competition with Mohammed's mob, thus the formulation of Islam by him.

Even to this day the mad Muslims worship a stone, two, in fact. One the Ka'aba (sp?) and another which is housed in a niche either in that great rock or elsewhere close by in Saudi, I'm gonna have to go look that one up again), that those on the haj get to peak at. It's a linga stone, a penis, a relic from the Ba'alist days.

Ba' alists of the mid-east used to worship enhanced anthropomorphic shapes/images perceived in stones, one reason for the Mosaic injunction of "Thou shalt not bow down before any graven image", found in the ten commandments in Exodus, OT.

There's another reference to worshipping stones connected to Jesus, but more direcly, where once while attending a lesson given by a renowned rabbi, Jesus reputedly set up a brick in front of himself and proceeded to bow and pray to it, which pissed the old rabbi off no end, as that action more or less stated that " ya might as well worship a brick as worship the god you're on about for all the sense you make, mate!"

Originally Posted by piwanoi

For me this Video depicts the "real Islam", the guy who is speaking is an Iranian apostate, who says quite plainly the truth is being sacrificed on the alter of "political correctness" of course ENT I know for sure you and a few other like minded people will watch this eye opener , most likely the best 17 minutes I have spent for quite some time watching it, of course there are those who will simply refuse to watch it , and then they are brass necked enough to call me a bigot

This guy is very articulate and knows Islam inside out, the guy has balls because i reckon he has a fatwa issued on him right now by the peaceful Islamic republic of Iran for daring to speak honestly about their ambitions on the world stage.
Nuclear Iran is worse the the fat dude in DRK because they are religiously driven.

You hate him, he hates you. You pull out a series of disconnected to facts to prove that his side is at fault and EVIL and he does the same.

I'm more with the woman's approach of course, having been born and raised atheist and not in some backward pigsty where not that long ago women were chattel and priests ran the show. So it's understandable that some folks are like he and you, but that in no way makes it somehow correct.

Originally Posted by dobella

This guy is very articulate and knows Islam inside out, the guy has balls because i reckon he has a fatwa issued on him right now by the peaceful Islamic republic of Iran for daring to speak honestly about their ambitions on the world stage.
Nuclear Iran is worse the the fat dude in DRK because they are religiously driven.

Translation: a self-promoting neo-con stooge?

Originally Posted by dobella

Originally Posted by piwanoi

For me this Video depicts the "real Islam", the guy who is speaking is an Iranian apostate, who says quite plainly the truth is being sacrificed on the alter of "political correctness" of course ENT I know for sure you and a few other like minded people will watch this eye opener , most likely the best 17 minutes I have spent for quite some time watching it, of course there are those who will simply refuse to watch it , and then they are brass necked enough to call me a bigot

This guy is very articulate and knows Islam inside out, the guy has balls because i reckon he has a fatwa issued on him right now by the peaceful Islamic republic of Iran for daring to speak honestly about their ambitions on the world stage.
Nuclear Iran is worse the the fat dude in DRK because they are religiously driven.

Just a shame he ain't a TD member eh Dobella, just think how much more he could learn about the "joys" of Islam conversing with the likes of Mao and QC

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by ENT

In your neck of the working class Anglo-Saxon woods, maybe.

Sorry. In ignoring your sophistries in the service of dull old racist horseshit, I missed this and I must say it is a good one. Who says the right lacks irony?

Which neck of the woods do you imagine your racist view of Muslim people resides in?

You really are mixed up mate.

First, there's only one human race, so the term racism implies selectivity on the basis of race, so patently ridiculous, as there' s no choice between one and nothing else, eh.

The more accurate description of so called "racism" is selective xenophobia, four syllables longer than in the word racism, so probably a bit of a mouthfull for the less well educated, such as politicans and yobs.

The next bit you get wrong is in insisting that being against a particular (or for that matter, by extension, all) religion is being racist, when it patently isn't, as relgion is neither a race, lineage nor ancestry, simply a cultural practice, a cult, indulged in by the more neurotic members of the human race, often according to their ancestral traditions.

So, to answer your question, we have no racism in my neck of the woods, mate.

We iz all happy heathens of many lineages.