The Gun Issue thread

[raycarey]

I might remind you there already exists a BATF background check form required to all gun purchases.

why do you insist on repeating this when you (and everyone else on this board) knows it's not true.

it is NOT required for all gun purchases.

in fact, up to 40% of sales slip through the gun show loophole.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

tens of thousand of guns are purchased without background checks.

spousal abusers, convicted murderers, the mentally ill.....they can all purchase semi-automatic rifles without a background check due to the gun show loophole....and you know it.


earl, you prattle on and on about libertarianism and personal responsibility (with the level of insight of an impressionable freshman in a dorm who just read atlas shrugged, i might add), yet you shirk responsibility when it comes to posting what you must know to be inaccurate.

[Mr Earl]

Actually it is only the private owner gun sales which are unregulated.

To buy from licensed dealer the BATF forms needs to be filled out.

Private gun owners don't account for 40% of gun sales.

[Morden]

Actually it is only the private owner gun sales which are unregulated.

To buy from licensed dealer the BATF forms needs to be filled out.

Private gun owners don't account for 40% of gun sales.

What percentage is it?

[Mr Earl]

^that would be difficult to know since private commerce isn't regulated.
What is known is that criminals are indeed involved in trading guns at some gun shows.
Seems to me that's something which law enforcement isn't dealing with, but could.

[TonyBKK]

^that would be difficult to know since private commerce isn't regulated.
What is known is that criminals are indeed involved in trading guns at some gun shows.
Seems to me that's something which law enforcement isn't dealing with, but could.

Ah, so when you say "Private gun owners don't account for 40% of gun sales" what you really mean is you have no fucking idea, is that it?

At least Ray provided a Justice Dept link to support his number. You just pulled your answer out of your ass.

Back to the problem at hand- It's far too easy for criminals and mentally ill people to buy guns in America.

Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans favor background checks for gun purchases the National Rifle Association shot down the bipartisan Manchin-Toomey proposal in the Senate.

Criminal background checks aren't gun control; they are just common sense.

[Mr Lick]

It is difficult to see how one can enforce a law where none really exists. The need for law enforcement officers at gun shows to check that vendors are 'doing the right thing' is simply confusing.

No gun show vendor is under a lawful obligation to sell a firearm to a customer without a background check but in doing so they fail to attain a standard of responsibility that even juveniles possess.

The sellers cannot be expected to self-regulate as i suspect they just happen to place more importance on the sale than the result of their action in passing on firearms to convicted criminals.

Firearms as raffle prizes and possibly next 'free with every 4 gallons of gasoline'. It's completely nuts!

[Mr Earl]

Actually the laws already exist which prohibit felons and mental defectives from having firearms and it's already a crime for a private seller to sell to a felon.
It's already possible for law enforcement to track these firearms used in crime that they do come from sellers at gun shows. The laws aren't being enforced. Some states have already taken steps to stop the gun show loophole, so it's actually a law enforcement issue.
So prattling on about new gun control law is ludicrous when law enforcement is lacking on existing law.

[raycarey]

Actually the laws already exist which prohibit felons and mental defectives from having firearms and it's already a crime for a private seller to sell to a felon.

do you take the same perverse enjoyment in being obtuse that you do in being wrong?

if there's no background check, how will the seller know if the the purchaser is a felon or mentally ill?

Some states have already taken steps to stop the gun show loophole,

how many?

and what about the citizens of those other states? it's just tough luck if their children are killed in a mass murder by a felon who bought his semi-automatic rifle at a gun show whilch didn't require a background check?

[TonyBKK]

Actually the laws already exist which prohibit felons and mental defectives from having firearms and it's already a crime for a private seller to sell to a felon.
It's already possible for law enforcement to track these firearms used in crime that they do come from sellers at gun shows. The laws aren't being enforced. Some states have already taken steps to stop the gun show loophole, so it's actually a law enforcement issue.
So prattling on about new gun control law is ludicrous when law enforcement is lacking on existing law.

Answer me this Mr Earl:

Since the Federal Government placed strict restrictions on the sale, ownership and transport of automatic weapons, aka machine guns, in the 1930s, how many mass shootings in the US have been perpetrated using automatic weapons?





Give up?




The answer: NONE



Clearly the common sense restrictions placed on the sale, ownership and transport of automatic weapons work!

Why aren't the 2nd amendment gun nuts up in arms (excuse the terrible pun) to get rid of the strict controls on automatic weapons?

Why is it ok to restrict automatic weapons but not ok to apply the same restrictions to semi-automatic weapons?

Why would it be inappropriate to extend the current rules governing automatic weapons to semi-auto guns and "assault weapons" like the AR-15 and Bushmaster that were used to devastating effect in some of our most recent mass shootings?

Did you ever see the ultra-high capacity magazine that James Eagan Holmes used with his AR-15 assault rifle to kill 12 and wound 58 in the "batman" shooting in Colorado?


WTF dude? I like to hunt and shoot, but what possible reason or rationale can there be for a civilian to own an assault rifle with a military grade drum magazine??

[Morden]

^that would be difficult to know since private commerce isn't regulated.
What is known is that criminals are indeed involved in trading guns at some gun shows.
Seems to me that's something which law enforcement isn't dealing with, but could.

So how do you know it isn't 40%?

[TonyBKK]

When paranoid gun nuts say Hitler took away the guns they are lying-

[TonyBKK]

What if we regulated guns the same way we do cars?

[Mr Earl]

WTF dude? I like to hunt and shoot, but what possible reason or rationale can there be for a civilian to own an assault rifle with a military grade drum magazine??

The military doesn't use those drum magazines because they are unreliable, the psycho dipshit in Aurora had his gun jam otherwise more people might have died.
Standard issue military M16's come with a 20 round magazine.

[Mr Earl]

What if we regulated guns the same way we do cars?

Seems to me more people die from car accidents than from gun accidents. Apparently government regulation achieves precious little.

[Morden]

What if we regulated guns the same way we do cars?

Seems to me more people die from car accidents than from gun accidents. Apparently government regulation achieves precious little.

That's a really tired old argument. How many cars have been driven into schools in order to kill 5 and 6 year old kids? How many young kids have got into a car and used it to kill their sisters?

The fact is the any-gun-anywhere-any person brigade have no valid argument against better laws and better enforcement in the US and are going round in circles using diversionary arguments to draw attention from the real issues.

[Boon Mee]

You want to know what happens when you make law-abiding citizens jump through ridiculous bureaucratic hoops to buy guns? This chart of Massachusetts' gun-related homicides says it all:



Since 1998, gun-related homicides in Massachusetts have doubled. This occurred during a period when gun-related homicide rates were in a significant downtrend nationally.

Why did Massachusetts buck this trend? Because right when other states were making concealed carry easier, Massachusetts went in the opposite direction and enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the country.

Read it all here Pretty compelling evidence wouldn't you say? And let's not even bring up Chicago...

[Mr Earl]

That's a really tired old argument. How many cars have been driven into schools in order to kill 5 and 6 year old kids? How many young kids have got into a car and used it to kill their sisters?

Still playing the emotional knee jerk I see. How many times have tragedies like Sandy Hook occurred? How many guns were involved?
How many children die in car accidents every year? Thousands?

The fact is the any-gun-anywhere-any person brigade have no valid argument against better laws and better enforcement in the US and are going round in circles using diversionary arguments to draw attention from the real issues.

There's no question there are problems with the current firearms situation in the USA, but it needs to be addressed honestly, sensibly and focus on where the problems are. Which is generally in the cities and amongst drug gangs who seem to acquire many of the firearms illegally at the gun shows.

Knee jerk legislation affecting law abiding gun owners doesn't address the problem.
Knowledge about firearms safety should begin early in schools, being ignorant about firearms is dangerous. Firearms are a simple fact of life and need to be respected.

[TonyBKK]

Still playing the emotional knee jerk I see. How many times have tragedies like Sandy Hook occurred? How many guns were involved?
How many children die in car accidents every year? Thousands?

C'mon Earl, you're being deliberately obtuse again.

Surely you recognize and understand the difference between a car ACCIDENT and Vehicular Homicide.

There are people who get shot accidentally....


And there are people who use assault weapons with high capacity magazines to perpetrate mass killings...


Surely you can understand the difference?

Bottom line, the US needs to come up with common sense steps to keep assault weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. To do nothing is to play into the hands of the NRA and gun lobby and will invite further carnage.

[Mr Earl]

Bottom line, the US needs to come up with common sense steps to keep assault weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. To do nothing is to play into the hands of the NRA and gun lobby and will invite further carnage.

Agreed the gun show loophole needs to be closed and current laws involving criminals using firearms enforced.
The NRA needs to go back to the role they used to play back in the 60's and 70's.

Additionally a hard look needs to be taken at the role government has had in making this situation worse.
The failed war on drugs has only served to create a society of drug profit financed career criminals who account for the bulk of the crime and murders.
Decriminalize all drug use and address addiction on a social level would remove the profit motive and much of the crime and criminals need for firearms goes away.
There needs to be honesty about this issue, which has far reaching ramifications throughout society.

The inner city minorities would benefit the most from not being enslaved by a welfare state and a sea of illegal drugs.
Another side benefit to decriminalization of all drugs would be that many of the world wide terrorist networks would dry up for lack of money to buy weapons.
An honest discussion of the firearms issue should involve the war on drug issue as that is what is causing much of the demand for firearms.

It's a complex issue which could be vastly simplified with an honest government.

Instead of banning semi-automatic weapons(the term assault rifle is an emotional and inaccurate nomenclature), their use should be encouraged in sporting events like taking all the special interest lobbyists and shooting them. Starting with cocksuckers like Wayne La Pierre and replacing him with someone honest and turn the NRA back 40 years.
Just kidding but special interest buying politicians needs to stop.

[Jesus Jones]

Where's Blackgang?

[TonyBKK]

Bottom line, the US needs to come up with common sense steps to keep assault weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. To do nothing is to play into the hands of the NRA and gun lobby and will invite further carnage.

Agreed the gun show loophole needs to be closed and current laws involving criminals using firearms enforced.
The NRA needs to go back to the role they used to play back in the 60's and 70's.

Additionally a hard look needs to be taken at the role government has had in making this situation worse.
The failed war on drugs has only served to create a society of drug profit financed career criminals who account for the bulk of the crime and murders.
Decriminalize all drug use and address addiction on a social level would remove the profit motive and much of the crime and criminals need for firearms goes away.
There needs to be honesty about this issue, which has far reaching ramifications throughout society.

The inner city minorities would benefit the most from not being enslaved by a welfare state and a sea of illegal drugs.
Another side benefit to decriminalization of all drugs would be that many of the world wide terrorist networks would dry up for lack of money to buy weapons.
An honest discussion of the firearms issue should involve the war on drug issue as that is what is causing much of the demand for firearms.

It's a complex issue which could be vastly simplified with an honest government.

Instead of banning semi-automatic weapons(the term assault rifle is an emotional and inaccurate nomenclature), their use should be encouraged in sporting events like taking all the special interest lobbyists and shooting them. Starting with cocksuckers like Wayne La Pierre and replacing him with someone honest and turn the NRA back 40 years.
Just kidding but special interest buying politicians needs to stop.

^ Well said, finally we agree on something

[Morden]

That's a really tired old argument. How many cars have been driven into schools in order to kill 5 and 6 year old kids? How many young kids have got into a car and used it to kill their sisters?

Still playing the emotional knee jerk I see. How many times have tragedies like Sandy Hook occurred? How many guns were involved?
How many children die in car accidents every year? Thousands?

The fact is the any-gun-anywhere-any person brigade have no valid argument against better laws and better enforcement in the US and are going round in circles using diversionary arguments to draw attention from the real issues.

There's no question there are problems with the current firearms situation in the USA, but it needs to be addressed honestly, sensibly and focus on where the problems are. Which is generally in the cities and amongst drug gangs who seem to acquire many of the firearms illegally at the gun shows.

Knee jerk legislation affecting law abiding gun owners doesn't address the problem.
Knowledge about firearms safety should begin early in schools, being ignorant about firearms is dangerous. Firearms are a simple fact of life and need to be respected.

Sure, kids and adults being massacred is an emotional issue. The issue of gun control that stems from that is common sense. The problem with the NRA and its unofficial mouthpieces is that they have neither emotion, compassion nor common sense.

The incidence of deaths on the road has nothing to do with gun massacres. Sensible measures will at least reduce the chances of a repetition. To anticipate your next bit of illogical argument, no, nothing will eliminate mass shooting completely.

Legislation need not be 'knee jerk'. It;s the NRA reaction that's knee jerk.

[raycarey]

Agreed the gun show loophole needs to be closed

how do you propose closing it without universal background checks?

[Morden]

Bottom line, the US needs to come up with common sense steps to keep assault weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. To do nothing is to play into the hands of the NRA and gun lobby and will invite further carnage.

Agreed the gun show loophole needs to be closed and current laws involving criminals using firearms enforced.
The NRA needs to go back to the role they used to play back in the 60's and 70's.

Additionally a hard look needs to be taken at the role government has had in making this situation worse.
The failed war on drugs has only served to create a society of drug profit financed career criminals who account for the bulk of the crime and murders.
Decriminalize all drug use and address addiction on a social level would remove the profit motive and much of the crime and criminals need for firearms goes away.
There needs to be honesty about this issue, which has far reaching ramifications throughout society.

The inner city minorities would benefit the most from not being enslaved by a welfare state and a sea of illegal drugs.
Another side benefit to decriminalization of all drugs would be that many of the world wide terrorist networks would dry up for lack of money to buy weapons.
An honest discussion of the firearms issue should involve the war on drug issue as that is what is causing much of the demand for firearms.

It's a complex issue which could be vastly simplified with an honest government.

Instead of banning semi-automatic weapons(the term assault rifle is an emotional and inaccurate nomenclature), their use should be encouraged in sporting events like taking all the special interest lobbyists and shooting them. Starting with cocksuckers like Wayne La Pierre and replacing him with someone honest and turn the NRA back 40 years.
Just kidding but special interest buying politicians needs to stop.

Great idea! More drugged up criminals with guns.

[Mr Earl]

Agreed the gun show loophole needs to be closed

how do you propose closing it without universal background checks?

A system is already in place for BATF background checks for sales through FFL dealers.
You simply require all gun shows sellers have FFL's and purchases be filed the in the same manner as they always have.
Now that won't stop the private sellers from selling to criminals in their home out in Walmart parking lot's. But it will make it possible for law enforcement to track the bad guys selling guns to criminals.
I'm sure law enforcement already knows which states with lenient gun law are the problems.
For instance I know both Texas and Virginia are very lenient.

Anyway putting more stringent background checks into play isn't the only way the issue needs to be addressed. I mentioned in a previous post about how to deal with reducing the demand for firearms.
That would be a much more serious change which would require decriminalizing all drugs and establishing a broad and more effective social network for helping drug addicts.
Currently the war on drugs is counterproductive and needs to be overhauled and transformed into a social problem not a criminal one.
The high demand for firearms is a direct result of the misguided war on drugs.
That would also solve the financing issue of terrorists.