The Gun Issue thread

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Originally Posted by barbaro

I consider them enemy combatants, basically.

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What is an enemy compatant. What is the definition? I don't think there is one.

How do these two qualify as enemy combatants? Was Timothy McVeigh an enemy compatant?

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Originally Posted by MrG

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Originally Posted by barbaro

I consider them enemy combatants, basically.

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What is an enemy combatant. What is the definition? I don't think there is one.

How do these two qualify as enemy combatants? Was Timothy McVeigh an enemy combatant?

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Tim McVeigh was a domestic terrorist.

An enemy combatant is essentially anyone other than a US citizen who engages in warfare against the USA and is not part of any recognized nation's military and doesn't wear and specified uniform or follow any recognized military code of conduct.

So the Boston bombers being technically in the USA legal like, the dead one actually a citizen and the younger brother with a valid green card. They would technically fall into the domestic terrorist domain me thinks.

Shifting focus of the Gun Issue Thread for a minute, anyone else wonder why the DHS is buying up massive amounts of ammo? At last count they were purchasing 1K more rounds per person the the US Army. Not content to already have 250 million rounds in stock they want more?

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^ A house subcommittee is scheduled to hold a hearing on the ammo purchases of DHS. So stand by.

^ and ^^,

The DHS ammo purchases do seem odd. It is buying more round per person - civilian - than the army.

I'd like to hear where this subcommittee committee hearing goes.

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Originally Posted by hazz

I wonder if you would be saying that if the chap wasn't a muslem and had used guns in a school to perpetrate his crime?

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"Enemy combatant" is based on how you can get information from them and find others, who trained them (if anyone) and further Intell.

To me, the term is how you legally get the info.

For me, It also depends on their place of birth and religious and political ideology - and how that affects their decision to conduct mass killings.

If someone is a non-muslim and conducts a mass killing of civilians, I think it's fair to treat them as an enemy combatant.

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the chap is a common criminal no more, no less.... just like Adam Lanza, Seung Hui Cho, Timothy McVeigh each of whom demonstrate just how amateurish your 'enemy combatant' was. but then these chaps weren't Muslims so they probably are not quite so scary.

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I've never considered them scary. You're putting words in my mouth.

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You should learn to control your fear and not give in to it.

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I never said I feared them.

Again, someone disagrees with you, and you make false statements and assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Shifting focus of the Gun Issue Thread for a minute, anyone else wonder why the DHS is buying up massive amounts of ammo? At last count they were purchasing 1K more rounds per person the the US Army. Not content to already have 250 million rounds in stock they want more?

Source

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First rule of government spending:

Spend it even if you don't need it.

I guess I might as well repeat myself. The bullets....

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Originally Posted by hazz

What is it about internet and gullible fools? So americans are supposed to be afraid because the government's buying 2 billion bullets, some people even think the government has actually taken delivery of these bullets.

Now this would be a matter of concern if there were any truth to these stories that seem to have got plastered around the internet. but for some reason never with any details the the deals done.... which got me suspicious.

I cannot look into the two billion claim, because there is no order for 2 billion bullets; the figure is derived from multiple contracts that the goverment has agreed. So I will look inot the truth of the claims for 450 million bullets for DHS/ICE, its a decent wedge of the total being claimed.


The contract has been awarded to a company called ATK who have rather nicely given details of their win in a press release:

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Originally Posted by ATK

ATK WINS FIVE-YEAR, INDEFINITE DELIVERY/INDEFINITE QUANTITY CONTRACT FOR .40 CALIBER AMMUNITION FROM DHS, ICE
ADDITIONAL .40 CALIBER AMMUNITION CONTRACT WITH 450 MILLION ROUND POTENTIAL DEMONSTRATES ATK'S LEADERSHIP IN AMMUNITION MANUFACTURING
Mar 12, 2012

ANOKA, Minn., March 12, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.

ATK was the incumbent and won the contract with its HST bullet, which has proven itself in the field. The special hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.

"We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40 caliber duty ammunition for DHS, ICE," said Ron Johnson, President of ATK's Security and Sporting group. "The HST is a proven design that will continue to serve those who keep our borders safe."

ATK will produce the ammunition at the Federal Cartridge Company facility in Anoka, Minn. Deliveries are expected to begin in June.

ATK is an aerospace, defense, and commercial products company with operations in 22 states, Puerto Rico, and internationally. News and information can be found on the Internet at www.atk.com.

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You will notice that the DHS/ICE have not agreed how many bullets they will buy or when. They have a greed to buy all of their .40 ammunition from, ATK at an agreed price.

The DHA/ICE gain buy being able to buy ammunition as and when the need it without having to go though the full federal purchasing process with each purchase, a purchase at a known predictable price.... allowing them to budget more accurately and in principle allowing them to negotiate decent discount.

This contract does not give any evidence regarding how many bullets that DHS/ICE will purchase. it does not provide any evidence that the DHS/ICE are stockpiling in preparation for the collapse of american society, which is what its being used for by the tin foil brigade.

To do that you need to get figures actual purchases and deliveries. But then that requires effort and might not provide the evidence you want. So its simply easier and simpler for the likes of Mark Levin to make shit up, because he knows his target audience are gullible fools what will drink up anything he says, won't they jesus

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Strange, still arguing about the 2nd Amendment, founding fathers, DHS conspiracies etc. But your government had just spat right in your face, and openly defied the will of 90% of the citizens that elected them, without so much as an explanation or an excuse.

You deserve your government.

^ There has been a bit of backlash against those four Democrat senators who voted against background checks. Looks like one or two will lose their seats in the next election just because of this.

Not one of them should be allowed to even contest the next election, at least as a Democrat. They betrayed their party, the people that voted them in, and Democracy itself. The latter day GOP is a mess- a miasma of low brow teabaggers, insanely greedy self serving rich people, and 'pro Israel' (more like anti US) military hawks. (there are sensible voices too, but they are marginalised, and presumably leaving in droves). Let the people of the US throw them to the dogs, where they belong. That party has become a cancer on your nations soul. I can't believe, as a conservative, how twisted, malevolent and destructive they have become in recent years.

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Originally Posted by misskit

^ There has been a bit of backlash against those four Democrat senators who voted against background checks. Looks like one or two will lose their seats in the next election just because of this.

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Maybe more. :D

^ Won't be even close to the number of GOP who will be shown to the door.

Giving the archaic rules that Congress and the Senate operate by, the neo-GOP doesn't need a majority to keep destroying your country from within- just enough of a minority to raise an ongoing, non-stop fillibuster. And of course, throwing a spanner in the works wherever else they can- stymying judicial and senior government appointments, rent-a-'scandal', etc. If the people of the US are incapable of denying them that, I basically stand by the principle they deserve what they get.

The archaic rules of the US Congressional system were designed for a political system that involved consultation and compromise, and Congressmen representing their constituents. This is no longer the case. One parties tactic is to vandalise all it can, if it doesn't get it's way. The minority party.

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Originally Posted by sabang

I basically stand by the principle they deserve what they get.

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Me too.

And, just to cite one example is the train wreck that is Obamacare. All those folks who voted for the Chicago Jesus are now having their respective Crows home to roost.

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Originally Posted by Boon Mee

one example is the train wreck that is Obamacare

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I doubt your nation will be paying over double the rest of the advanced world for incomplete healthcare in a generations time- those living then can at least thank obamacare for that. But, with the controlled demolition of the 'public option' at the hands of lobbyists and their pet politicians, it is nowhere near as effective as it could or should have been. It will be revisited though, I am quietly confidant of that.

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Originally Posted by sabang

the neo-GOP doesn't need a majority to keep destroying your country from within- just enough of a minority to raise an ongoing, non-stop fillibuster.

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Look, denying civil rights to homosexuals, interfering with a woman's right to health care, shaming a grad student who dared to ask if one of her friend's prescriptions could be covered by health insurance, blocking the President at every turn and turning a blind eye to genocide in countries without oil is not enough to make them the bad guys, all right?

The NRA has spent $700,000 since the first of this year (2013) to keep our representatives from passing gun control laws.

LD-2 Disclosure Form

Even though ninety percent of Americans want background checks for firearms, the law was voted down.

Our elected government sold us out for less than a million dollars.

The more I read and hear from the any-gun-anywhere-any-person brigade the more I'm convinced that a proportion of the US population has lost it's sense of reason. Their logic is crazy. They distort the truth, invent lies, put words into the mouths of people with whom they disagree, shout down other people, make personal insults and quote the 2nd Amendment as if it has never been modified by lawmakers and the Courts. These are the tactics of the desperate who know that they are wrong.

Paranoia is rife amongst these people too. Some seem to believe that they must have a gun to protect them against their own government. Chaps, if your government wanted to wipe you out, it wouldn't use guns!

If you want to see where your individual rights have gone, read the PATRIOT Act. They aren't taking away your liberties at gun point.

Y'all are still missing the point; the bill does fuck all to prevent and deter criminals and wackjobs from using firearms while directing all the legistation at law abibing citizens.
It's completely ass backwards and that's pretty damned obvious.

Sure enough 90% of the people support a sensible background check which actually already exists in part.
What good does it do to pass new law when current law isn't being properly adjudicated?
It be all smoke a mirrors for the dumb and gulible do gooders who feel the need to do the emotional knee jerk every time a Sandy Hook or a Colombine shooting occures.

^That background check law compelled gun show and online sales to do background checks. It is sensible and closes a loophole in the current law. People wanted it and it didn't pass.

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

It be all smoke a mirrors for the dumb and gulible do gooders who feel the need to do the emotional knee jerk every time a Sandy Hook or a Colombine shooting occures.

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The Low Information Voter sucks this stuff up like candy...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Y'all are still missing the point; the bill does fuck all to prevent and deter criminals and wackjobs from using firearms while directing all the legistation at law abibing citizens.
It's completely ass backwards and that's pretty damned obvious.

Sure enough 90% of the people support a sensible background check which actually already exists in part.
What good does it do to pass new law when current law isn't being properly adjudicated?
It be all smoke a mirrors for the dumb and gulible do gooders who feel the need to do the emotional knee jerk every time a Sandy Hook or a Colombine shooting occures.

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See what I mean folks? Any excuse to do nothing, even after kids are shot to pieces.

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Originally Posted by misskit

^That background check law compelled gun show and online sales to do background checks. It is sensible and closes a loophole in the current law. People wanted it and it didn't pass.

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But like I said it has no teeth if current law isn't enforced properly. It's stupid lightweight feel good panacea which does nothing to really address the issue of gun crime.

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

every time a Sandy Hook or a Colombine shooting occures.

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Christ on a bike , how fokin sad are you . :(