Thread: Hydrogen power, the future alternative fuel.

Originally Posted by westozguy

What the naysayers of hydrogen/gasoline or even hydrogen/diesel hybrid engines fail to understand is, it NOT the burning of the hydrogen that improves the fuel consumption to an "at-first-glance-seemingly-impossible" energy equation...It is the catalysing effect of adding hydrogen to the gasoline/diesel that makes it a much more complete and efficient combustion process. It DOES work.

I understand that very well. I have stated as much up in this thread. Though the effect surely is greatly reduced if the engine is already well designed and modern. There are clear limits to the efficiency of combustion engines.

I may concede an increase of efficiency for not the most modern engines of maybe 10%. Though really I believe it will be less in reality, maybe 3 to 5%. Which is still good, I agree.

But ENT does not understand that. He claims a ridiculous 30% of fuel savings. AND he claims adding a second device will reduce fuel consumption even a lot more.

Plain and simple idiocy.

You can be as insulting as you like, if you're prepared to take the same in return.

Your figures don't add up re. 10% efficiency as it's all in your head only.
The practical reality so far across the board, not only mine is for an approximate 30% reduction in carbon based fuel consumption in vehicles fitted with HHO devices, simple as that.

You pig-headedly ignore all other information on the subject as presented in life and in the media, and you expect a thinking person to accept your faux science as fact, because you have a few "friends who are scientists".

You haven't got a clue about the subject as you theorise away without even attempting a practical test or even looking at such a system in operation.

So much for your science, it's bunkum, designed to put people off the use of hydrogen as an energy source in vehicles.

The US and other military are using it, daily, but you claim that at best only 10% efficiency is possible.

Your whole interest in this topic is simply to debunk the matter as you obviously have vested interest in other fuel forms.

You're the one indulging in idiocy.

Originally Posted by ENT

The chief competition involved in the suppression of information and use of hydrogen has come from the oil and gas industry, as well as from nuclear energy proponents. Biomass fuels are only another added burden on the atmosphere, while hydrogen use is potentially the cleanest energy souce that we can use, apart from solar energy.

I don't think the Oil industry cares a fuk about some technology that is not yet proven. Yes, hydrogen is good and clean but the production systems at present would hardly fit in your car, never mind produce enough to run it

What military uses does hydrogen have?

The US and other military are using it, daily

Next time in Chiangmai go and check out the HHO units for sale there.
There are a growing number of these modified units in use in Chiangmai now.
The units are much smaller and compact than you imagine, I think.

The military and NASA have been using Hydrogen and Oxygen to power rockets for several decades.

If you search the web, you'll find references to this and other military and civilian uses of combusting hydrogen in oxygen for fuel.

The video I posted above should explain enough about how the technology is used in a civilian context.

Originally Posted by ENT

You can be as insulting as you like

I have checked on that. Facts are not legally insults.

Originally Posted by ENT

if you're prepared to take the same in return.

No problem.again.

Originally Posted by ENT

You haven't got a clue about the subject as you theorise away without even attempting a practical test or even looking at such a system in operation.

I dont need to hit my thumb with a hammer to know it hurts.

Hydrogen Powered Drone

Originally Posted by ENT

Hydrogen Powered Drone

Unlike you I am fully aware what can and what can not be done with hydrogen and how and under what conditions it can be manufactured with which efficiency.

BTW if reds make you happy, keep giving them.

I could also come up with a load of verbal spaghetti and alphabet soupe to prove with faux science that the moon is made of cheese, but without some indication of the practical to demonstrate my contention, it would be useless.

Since you claim to be fully aware of how hydrogen can be used, why not tell all?

I'm certain that others would like to know the facts.

Originally Posted by ENT

Since you claim to be fully aware of how hydrogen can be used, why not tell all?

I'm certain that others would like to know the facts.

I recommend reading this thread and try to understand. It is all in there with the advantages and the disadvantages, that will not allow it to be a fuel for cars.

And try to understand how your device actually works. It does not and cannot provide fuel for your car.

OK I will do a quick review.

Hydrogen does not occur naturally and needs to be produced. With every process the amount energy put in is larger than the energy of the resulting product. Even for the future the best hopes for producing hydrogen is less than 80% efficiency. At present all available processes are less efficient than this. Particularly the processes of the simple devices in cars are probably less than 50% effective. That means less than 50% of the energy stored in the battery comes out of the process in form of hydrogen.

Using mass produced hydrogen as a fuel for cars is not feasible. Car companies have tried it for more than 30 years. You can run a car with hydrogen. Converting the engine is no major challenge. The problem comes with storing the hydrogen in the car.

There are three different methods.

1. Storing the gas under pressure in gas bottles. Disadvantage the bottles are very heavy and increase the weight of the car, reducing the efficiency and limiting the amount of energy storable.

2. Liquid H2. It requires extremely low temperatures and a well insulated tank. Still the H2 heats up and evaporates. If you fill up today your tank will be empty tomorrow. Also you cannot keep the car in a garage or covered car park as the evaporating H2 will pose a risk of explosion.

The method could be used for a bus, that gets filled in the morning, runs all day and is empty in the evening if you can time it precisely enough.

It can be used for a drone, as in your last example, as the engine will be running all the time and burn the evaporating hydrogen.

It can be used in rockets. They are filled up before the start and they lose hydrogen all the time until liftoff, but that is factored in, no problem. With a delay in the liftoff time the losses are replaced for a short delay or the tanks emptied for a longer delay.

3. Hydrogen hydride storage. The hydrogen gets losely attached to a suitable metallic material. A possible long term storage method. The method has three drawbacks.

Low density requiring large tanks.

The need to heat the tank up to get the hydrogen released requires some energy on every startup. While the engine is running, enough excess heat is available.

The probably worst drawback is the very slow filling process of the tank. You cannot stop for a few minutes to fill up, it takes a lot of time.

So none of the three methods is suitable for private car owners.

From Toyota's blurb;


"Around the world, efforts are being made to harness the power of hydrogen,
the most abundant element in the universe.

Recognizing hydrogen’s vast potential as a clean energy source,
Toyota is actively developing and producing fuel cell vehicles (FCV).

We believe hydrogen can help us contribute to the next 100 years of the automobile."
Toyota Global Site | Fuel Cell Vehicle



"The Toyota Mirai (Japanese for "future") is a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, one of the first hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles to be sold commercially.[5][6] The Mirai was unveiled at the November 2014 Los Angeles Auto Show.[7] Toyota plans to build 700 vehicles for global sales during 2015.[8]"
Toyota Mirai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Toyota unveils game changer hydrogen-powered car





Toyota has unveiled the first mass-market hydrogen fuel cell car, which will start selling in Japan next month and in the US and Europe in 2015.

The four-door sedan, called the Mirai, which means future in Japanese, will emit only water vapor, but it’s not cheap at 6.7 million yen ($57,000). It’s designed for a niche market and Toyota is only expecting to sell 400 of them next year.
http://rt.com/news/206667-toyota-hydrogen-powered-car/

World’s first double-decker hydrogen bus unveiled in London
November 30, 2016




The London Mayor Sadiq Khan has unveiled the world’s first double-deck hydrogen-fuelled bus, manufactured by Wrightbus, and said it will be trialled on London’s roads next year.

Mr Khan also pledged to stop buying double-decker buses that run purely on diesel from 2018, as part of his drive to clean up the capital’s toxic air.

The zero-emission double-decker debuts a new hydrogen fuel cell driveline from the Northern Irish company Wrightbus which will become available to power both single-deck and double-deck buses when it goes into full production next year.


The mayor is working with officials from other cities around the world to phase out polluting buses and spur the development of zero and low-emission buses by driving down their costs. Eleven other cities, including New York, Amsterdam and Cape Town, have vowed to phase out the procurement of diesel buses by 2020, with Paris, Madrid and Mexico City pledging to end their use by 2025, his office said.


"It’s great that more cities are getting on board to phase out the procurement of pure diesel buses, which sends a clear signal that only the cleanest technologies are wanted in our cities," Mr Khan said.

He has made cleaning up the capital’s air pollution, blamed for 9,400 early deaths a year, a priority of his tenure. Since becoming mayor in May, he has ended the use of the dirtiest buses on some of London’s most polluted roads, proposed an emissions surcharge for the most polluting vehicles on top of the capital’s existing congestion charge and announced plans to extend London’s "Ultra-Low Emission Zone".

World’s first double-decker hydrogen bus unveiled in London | The National

Hi Ent, you still on this hho project? Wondering if you used a signal converter for your o2 sensor? Or was it carburator car?
Tom

Where exactly does the hydrogen come from?

Water?

Originally Posted by Tommy

Hi Ent, you still on this hho project? Wondering if you used a signal converter for your o2 sensor? Or was it carburator car?
Tom

I stayed very low tech in HHO production, so all the O2 and H produced was mixed after production in an anti-flashback water 'bubbler', then drawn into the carburetor via the air cleaner. Petrol screw was leaned off to two thirds of norm, and choke used to increase petrol flow to start, then eased off once the motor started.

Excellent smooth acceleration, no hesitancy or 'surge' from fuel starvation, hotter burning I guess created a nice clean grey to biscuit coloured exhaust pipe, no soot at all, from either a petrol, diesel or LPG and HHO hybrid motor.

Other friends in the game went into highly technical conversion and balancing systems in efforts to increase hydrogen volumes, but the draw on the battery was noticeable and the engine revs dropped simultaneously.

I've not run an HHO/petrol or diesel hybrid for three years now, moving from country A to B too often to warrant owning a car.

The answer is to look at low energy "complete solutions" to the economy.
I mean, why do people need to travel around so much these days?
All this energy being burned to what end?
Perhaps every job should have a carbon footprint... it might encourage teleworking, and more family time, and create a healthier work culture.
You see people dragging their meatsacks through cities every day all over the world, and you wonder, is this the most efficient way of completing whatever task they are travelling to do? Do we need to have this extent of physical transport-dependent economy any more? There are, of course, a lot of tasks and jobs that need a human phyiscally there to do them, but there are an awful lot that don't, and this is why "robots replacing our jobs" isn't necessarily the apocalyptic thing it's made out to be.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

Originally Posted by Tommy

Water?

This I know. And how exactly is the hydrogen separated from the water? This I also know.

These questions allude to the fact that electricity in quite large quantities has to be used and from whence in reality does it come? Without causing the same amount of pollution.

Apparently you don't know.
So without getting over-technical, keeping it all at high school level, here's how.

Electricity generated by the car's alternator is stored in the battery at a regulated amount, keeping the battery topped up while the motor runs, the car drawing off a small amount for firing spark plugs, and powering various instruments and other electrical functions the car might normally use.

At night, even more electricity from the car battery's used for the headlights, the battery being continually topped up by the alternator as the motor runs, without any loss of power in the motor.

But, if the lights are left switched on without the motor running the alternator, they would soon use up all that previously generated and stored electricity and flatten the battery.

In normal circumstances, at night with a full load on the battery, lights, radio, aircon etc, the alternator will keep generating electricity and keep the battery topped up, without any extra fuel being used to run the car's motor.

If some of that stored surplus of continually generated electricity is simultaneously used to run an HHO hydrolizer, around 15 amps max is used, so there's no excessive load on the alternator or the petrol/diesel/LPG fueled motor, and a continuous supply of hydrogen and oxygen is produced to add to the air/fuel mix allready used to run the motor, while the alternator still generates electricity at the same rate as before, while still topping up the battery.

No extra carbon based fuel is used at all to generate the HHO. In fact 30% less petrol/diesel/LPG, mixed with the HHO is used to keep the car running with an improved performance and 30% less pollution.

So where's that extra carbon footprint you mention?

It doesn't exist in such an arrangement.

The standard protocol of getting hydrogen (and o2) with dc can be easy improved by pulsed dc. So lets assume 2v on the 2 plates hanging in the water. With say, 15amps i would use 2x15=30watts.

Now pulse the dc, half time on, half time off (50% dutycycle for the techheads). 2v, 15a, but now you use only half the energy since half the time the power is off. (Energ calculated time x power(W))

Fact is, the plates in the water act like a capacitor. And when power is switched off, it takes some time for hydrogen gas production to stop (hysteresis).

What this means is when you use pulsed dc 50% dutycycle, your h2 production is not half compared to normal dc, but somewhere between 50 and 100% (depending on size, water conductivity etc.).

Some electronics is required to run pulsed dc powersupply, but it is an easy task for on onboard alternator or carbattery.

That's the pathway my son took experimenting on his HHO generators, I had other things to do and think about, while his mind is far more adept at technical matters such as this than mine is.

Originally Posted by Tommy

hen power is switched off, it takes some time for hydrogen gas production to stop (hysteresis)

Hysteresis cuts two ways.

What you describe works to cheat the human eye. If you pulse LED-light the eyes integrate to something closer to max than 50%. But I strongly doubt this applies to electrolysis.

Originally Posted by ENT

In normal circumstances, at night with a full load on the battery, lights, radio, aircon etc, the alternator will keep generating electricity and keep the battery topped up, without any extra fuel being used to run the car's motor.

Rubbish.

Originally Posted by ENT

No extra carbon based fuel is used at all to generate the HHO.

Rubbish.

You're verging on perpetual motion.

Of course there is a greater load on the engine (and thus more fuel consumed) when the alternator is re-charging the battery.
AC alone brings up to 10% more fuel consumption.

Stop pretending to be a scientist. You're a googler and not a very thorough one at that.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Originally Posted by ENT

In normal circumstances, at night with a full load on the battery, lights, radio, aircon etc, the alternator will keep generating electricity and keep the battery topped up, without any extra fuel being used to run the car's motor.

Rubbish.

Originally Posted by ENT

No extra carbon based fuel is used at all to generate the HHO.

Rubbish.

You're verging on perpetual motion.

Of course there is a greater load on the engine (and thus more fuel consumed) when the alternator is re-charging the battery.
AC alone brings up to 10% more fuel consumption.

Stop pretending to be a scientist. You're a googler and not a very thorough one at that.

Seconded.
ENT has a difficulty understanding that energy can only be transformed but not created

Originally Posted by Takeovers

But I strongly doubt this applies to electrolysis.

Think, and you will doubt..... Act, and you will know....

Tom