Fry makes his point extremely well IMO.
YouTube - Stephen Fry's beautiful comments on a world without God.
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Fry makes his point extremely well IMO.
YouTube - Stephen Fry's beautiful comments on a world without God.
Fry is a contemporary genius. Burdened with the an intelect the size of two planets, no wonder he has the odd breakdown.
Carrying all that knowledge and understanding, he is fortunate to have us mere mortals to indulge his passion for living life to the full.
you have to realize that men are religious animals, so the issue is not really god per se, but man interpretation of the world though his narrow vision, because his brain is simply incapable of dealing with certain reality, but just enough to understand the depth of that reality
therefore, maybe it be Christian gods, Muslims, Science, and even "Free Entreprise", these are all a model framework that we put in place to "protect" ourselves.
We need religion to survive, even if it kills a few in the process
"Ignorance breeds monsters to fill up the vacancies of the soul that are unoccupied by the verities of knowledge."
-Horace Mann
A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
(Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930)
Quite.
butterfly talking utter nonsense as usual when it comes to secularism.
man has sufficient intelligence to see the corruption and fallacy that exists in all religions.
No need to beat yourself with a stick to prove you are wrong butterfly. Every word you write continues to beat you senseless.
he does now, but that's thanks to religion in some ways. Think of a caveman mentality, do you think without religion he will have become "civilized" ? Religion made man evolution. You need to read Rousseau :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
Glad to see you are a believer in your own religious crap. Who is your god ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
When it comes to religion and politics, I always get the distinct feeling you were dropped on your head as a baby, or maybe you are on acid or summat.
This good Butterfly;
YouTube - Fry and Hitchens Discussion 4/10 (Sound Fixed)
Man is not crippled with narrow vision or requiring of an external supernatural being to provide insight in to the beauty of nature and the universe. The literary, artistic and scientific geniuses of history are testament to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
'God' is just a poetic metaphor for that insight into the sublime which is actually a feat of the human spirit itself.
Organised religion is not spiritually relevant anymore it was a stepping stone in the evolution of organised society and its desire to weave moral consciousness into its fabric.
wasn't his father a vicar?
Fry ?Quote:
Originally Posted by good2bhappy
His father was a physicist.
and inventor
my mistake
but these are exceptions, hence confirming the ruleQuote:
Originally Posted by Looper
you obviously haven't been outside :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
the world is full of believers, the majority of the mass is scared and live in lala land. The world is a world full of people with a narrow vision, and this is a fact. I believe that 90% of the world population believe in some type of god or religion. That's what we are, religious animals, nothing else. And stop taking this personally :)
agree but only for an educated minority. It remains relevant for a majority, mostly uneducated, that would be more happy to return to the stone age. We remain vicious and salvage animals deep down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Off on a bit of a tangent but well worth watching. I've posted the first bit, it's about nine minutes long. There are 5 altogether. The final result of the debate is pretty amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=pXACuQXQ7Co&feature=related
I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
This a terrific debate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=vnMYL8sF7bQ&feature=related
The good Rabbi, IMO, gets "owned".
You are suggesting that humans are essentially savages and that God is the boogeyman who keeps us in line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
I don't think humans are essentially savages. I think most humans conform to mutually cooperative moral codes hard-wired into our social evolution. There are exceptions of course but we don't need a mythical sky-phantom to discourage misbehaviour. That is what the criminal justice system is there for. Better to have something tangible to discourage rogue behaviour than something intellectually deniable.
^ disagree, remove the social infrastructure or any "social barriers", and see how we return to the animal stage in a matter of days
we remains apes, that is we are basically monkeys. If you go to a zoo and watch Orangutans, look at them in the eyes, and see how surprising "human" they are in their eyes and facial expression.
the "social contract" is the only thing that keep us "civilized". Remove it, and we will go apeshit like monkeys out of their cage. The first "social contract" ever is the 10 commandment.
The "imaginative" being is a necessity to establish a credible authority,
So you're saying that prior to the 10 commandments all was chaos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
it was probably also after, but I am just illustrating that our society is based on a religious "social contract"Quote:
Originally Posted by jandajoy
other religions have them too, "covenants" are contracts
Why does a social contract have to religious?
^ intrinsically it doesn't need to be, but in the early days it was needed to establish credibility or authority :)
Make your mind up butters. You say man is a religious animal and religion brought us out of the caves, now you say we are savages, happy to go back there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Which is it to be.
Given a reasonable education, and freedom from queer priests, most would choose to follow therie own path to enlightenment.
Globalisation has taken away the need for religion for the majority.
The only ones who still believe are in the dark ages, afraid of being cast into the inferno.
Having said that, if someone like you, who claims to be well versed in such things is a believer, perhaps you are the exeption that proves my rule.
Looper is right and you are wrong.
ah, I always knew you were a bit "impaired" in terms of logic (aren't you swiss ?), but frankly it's not hard to understand. We are animals, we need "education", the beginning of civilization is "religion", without it we go back to the animal stage. Easier now ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
globalization has only serve a few economically and certainly not the majority in terms of education, and guess what, that didn't stop "religion" and the religious extremists, worse they have spread thanks to globalization.Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
you will find that a lot of scientists, doctors and all kind of educated people have become highly religious, and it's not uncommon to see the 2 extreme of society, the highly educated and the poorly educated to share a common religious beliefs. Actually, scientists have said that their "devotion" has come from their work, that is the more they learn and discover things, the more they were convinced that a god existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
you are an ignorant fool and live in the Swiss mountains so who cares :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
So would you say that we can have a "social contract" as in "morals" without involving a deity, a religion, an all powerful dictator?Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
nope, not on a large scale of population like we have, it could work on a very small community, but not with millions of people to manage, you need an "authority" figure to control our "civility"Quote:
Originally Posted by jandajoy
if you look at Communism, it's exactly what it tries to do, a "social contract" without "interference", but it's after years of brutal dictatorship, to break our "animal instinct"
I vcould argue the point with you all day and all night butterfly. trouble is, you only disagree and contradict others in order to extend the debate.
We are highly developed mammals who have evolved despite religion, not because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
you need education to get you over this mental defect that tells you religion is necessary or even essential to the current well being of man. It is not and bever has been.
Religion has been responsible for millions of deaths over the centuries. It is an impediment to further progress for humanity. It may well be a stage we have to go through, in order to appreciate that a god does not exist, and we are quite capable of managing without one.
I honestly believed you were being sargumentative for the sake of it, but maybe you are as dumb as the shite you spout after all.
man has it in himself to be a monster or a buddha , people are conditioned from an early age to believe . ie the majority. fear rules the roost and we will do whatever is necessary to secure our security .and protect our pleasures . almost every important decision a man makes has a pleasure angle attached to it . desire . and what will you do to safeguard your pleasure ? btw you will not be, like a buddha by practicing buddhism .thought created the self and there would be no thinker if there were no thought.
to be honest, I don't think you have the brain capacity to argue anything, I have a feeling you are not mentally equipped for that kind of debate :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
assumptions, assumptions, assumptions :mid:Quote:
Originally Posted by chassamui
I wonder what god you believe in, probably a nasty one :)
Mine is based on consumption, not assumption, you chump. If you provide a link to prove that this god of yours exists, then i will provide one to prove he doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Surely you have worked it out by now, you being such a clever chap and all?:)Quote:
I wonder what god you believe in, probably a nasty one
butterfly ,,you have not seriously gone into this subject and i have to say your posts are rather silly. but i defend your right to the very end to state them. forget who said that.
can only imagine that the books you read were full of horse- shit.
^ sorry, I was a philosophy major at one point, so yes I read plenty of books on the topic of shit :p
Seems like you are arguing the case for telling the masses that God exists for practical reasons of keeping them in order rather than adressing the philosphical question of whether or not he does exist. You have said that you think that Man needs to believe in God for social order but do you yourself actually believe that God does exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
I think religious fear was a primitive tool in maintaining social order but the common law system, a police force and the penal code are much more efficient and, crucially, capable of adapting to the shifting mores of society as it evolves its ideas about right and wrong, which religion, with its inflexible absolutism, is not.
I think those 2 issues are fundamentally different, religion and the possible existence of god. Most people are confused and merged those 2 together. They have nothing to do with each other. Religion obviously doesn't prove that God exist, only that you believe in it. Only scientific and philosophical logic and exercise, not religious logic and exercise, can lead to a debate whether god exist or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
I believe that something does exist that is at the origin of our universe or is a framework of our universe. I don't believe it's a being, more like a thing. So yes technically I am a god believer. I think it's impossible for man not to believe in some form of god. Those who deny it are just repressing themselves, like a catholic priest repressing his love for Choir boys :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Looper
definitely, but eventually the social infrastructure could break as "physical" disturbances take its toll. An authoritative being that is mystic and that nobody can see can keep your social order forever :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Looper
I still think your beliefs are based on archaic principles of the very issue that you support.
You fear the absence of a god becauise, the existence of your god is your own social and psychological safety net.
It also underlines your personal insecurities, that you have to hold on to something so mythical as a 'god'.
I think you are confusing god and religion with faith.
^ jesus Chass, logic wasn't your strong in School
Religion is based on faith, and what define man better than faith and beliefs
not sure why again you are taking all this so personally, afraid to find god ? :mid:
Religion is based on fear and control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
I think a healthy dose of reality is much better than blind faith, brought on by people selling fear in order to gain power.
As far as logic is concerned, it obviously has no place in the magical world of the butterfly.
nothing personal butters, i just disagree with your warped views.:)