Turkey - an Islamist state?

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25-07-2007, 08:42 PM
stroller

Turkey - an Islamist state?

Commentary after last Sunday's election:

Quote:

After Sunday’s election Turkey is still as starkly divided as it has ever been about what kind of country it wants to be. Does it still want to stick fiercely to the secular vision of its founder, Kemal Atatürk, keeping religion out of the public square? Or should it express its Muslim heritage and identity, or even become an Islamic republic? Does it want to continue to move closer to Europe, or seek a new Asian destiny? Turkish voters did not give a clear, overwhelming answer to any of these questions.

The ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Prime Minister, increased its vote from 34 to 47 per cent. But the result has not given the cautious Islamist party the free hand it wants to reform the resolutely secular constitution because it now faces a stronger opposition in the national assembly. The main secular party, the People’s Republican Party (CHP), increased its support. The National Action Party (MHP), a proto-fascist group, galvanised by fears that the AKP is intent on stealthily Islamicising Turkey, surged from nowhere to win 14 per cent of the vote.

The MHP, strongly opposed to joining the EU, aims to unite the Turkic people in a “Greater Turkey” that encompasses Xinjiang in China, Central Asia, the Caucasus and northwest Iran. Its more extremist theoreticians also include Hungary and Finland in their “family of Turkish nations”.
...

A very Turkish coup? It may already be under way -Times Online
25-07-2007, 10:31 PM
ChiangMai noon

I am amazed at the route Turkey is taking.
i lived there for 3 years in the late 1990's.
most people wanted EU membership but didn't expect it.

It was very secular.
the idea of an islamic party was quite odd.
25-07-2007, 10:36 PM
stroller

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

most people wanted EU membership

Sure, they would like to...
But they haven't shaped up to the minimum requirements re. human rights, freedom of expression and a few other little things.
The EU would be crazy to accept them after this election result.
25-07-2007, 10:45 PM
ChiangMai noon

^
I agree stroll.
I'm just amazed at the political turnabout in such a short space of time.
26-07-2007, 01:06 AM
sabang

A surprising amount of Europeans- especially Germans, followed by Brit's are choosing Turkey as a place to live.
The few I have met who live in Turkey (my company had an office in Istanbul & Ankara) actually love the place- the lifestyle, the food, the women, the prices.
Maybe we have to see it through a similar prism to Thailand. Not perfect, not entirely understandable, but a damn sight better lifestyle than where we come from, overall.
26-07-2007, 01:18 AM
stroller

The individual experience level is always different from politics - I wouldn't touch Thailand with a bargepole for the politics of the gov and the people.

Same with Turkey, the hospitality truly puts the Germans to shame if one thinks about how Turks are treated in Germany.
26-07-2007, 01:51 AM
Hootad Binky

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabang

the women

Turkish women can freely date or co-habitate with Western men?
26-07-2007, 02:14 AM
Sir Burr

Turkey will never become an Islamic state. The army jelously guards Attaturk's legacy as a secular state and will do whatever it takes to keep it that way.
26-07-2007, 02:22 AM
sabang

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabang

the women

Turkish women can freely date or co-habitate with Western men?

Yes, and they do. Some of those Turkish wives I met have me drooling to this day. :sexy:

I understand the Kurdish community in Turkey is much more closed and conservative in this regard, but then again I doubt you will find an easy wife in Golders Green. :)
27-07-2007, 12:12 AM
Hootad Binky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

Turkey will never become an Islamic state. The army jelously guards Attaturk's legacy as a secular state and will do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

Increasingly rare!
27-07-2007, 12:14 AM
Hootad Binky

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabang

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabang

the women

Turkish women can freely date or co-habitate with Western men?

Yes, and they do. Some of those Turkish wives I met have me drooling to this day.

Yes some are very nice, indeed, and culturally much closer to the West... hmmmm, maybe I should take a harder look at those Turkish job offers :laugh:
27-07-2007, 04:10 AM
ChiangMai noon

^
Turkish women, I believe are pound for pound the most beautiful i have seen.
I married one.
shame her dad wanted to shoot me.
02-08-2007, 03:31 AM
shehiredahitman

Turkey has banned the burka.
02-08-2007, 10:13 AM
Lily

I think that this may be a good chance for Turkey and Islam to show the world that they can have an Islamist governmant and still govern in a democratic manner.

I really hope that this will prove to be the case.

It would go very far to showing the world that Islam can be moderate and respect people's rights. It could dispel a lot of the fear of Islam.
02-08-2007, 01:27 PM
mad_dog

The AKP has its roots in a form of a moderate Political Islam. "Islamists" is an over used, ill defined, word but should not be used to describe people or movements who seek Islamic forms of goverments through democratic participation.
02-08-2007, 02:27 PM
stroller

It's not the "democratic process", but the goals which are a measure, and in terms of EU membership, I see Turkey moving further away from it.
Even geographically, it's a bit of a stretch...
02-08-2007, 02:33 PM
machangezi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily

Show the world that they can have an Islamist governmant and still govern in a democratic manner.

You might wanna steer clear of the word "Islamist" cos I think they want a "Islamic" government not Islamist.
02-08-2007, 02:57 PM
mad_dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by stroller

It's not the "democratic process", but the goals which are a measure, and in terms of EU membership, I see Turkey moving further away from it.
Even geographically, it's a bit of a stretch...

The word Islamist is synonamous with "Islamic fundametalist". The rulling party in Turkey is not in anyway fundamentalist in outlook. Sadly Western media is so low brow that niceties such as this are overlooked and this leads to many misconceptions. Islamists, IMHO, would not engage in Turkey's political system.
02-08-2007, 03:51 PM
stroller

Sure, the AKP is not 'extremist' in the sense of wanting to establish a one-party theocracy, but the tendency is away from the secular constitution and giving more weight to Islam in politics and public life.
That wouldn't go down well in the present European climate.

What is worrisome is the rift and the rise of the National Party - "Greater Turkey" with bits of China and Finland??? :confused:
02-08-2007, 03:54 PM
Lily

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

There should be a limit to everything. People have rights but when there is no control it becomes obscene and thats where Islam puts a limit or draws a line. In Islam one can't have it both ways.

Like what Macha?
02-08-2007, 04:00 PM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by shehiredahitman

Turkey has banned the burka.

has it really?

Quote:

Quote:
It would go very far to showing the world that Islam can be moderate and respect people's rights. It could dispel a lot of the fear of Islam.
There should be a limit to everything. People have rights but when there is no control it becomes obscene and thats where Islam puts a limit or draws a line. In Islam one can't have it both ways.

WTF? I dont understand what you are saying Macha...... people cannot have rights and a moderate Islam at the same time???

surely not.
02-08-2007, 04:08 PM
Lily

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrT

has it really?

In government buildings and schools and such, I think.
02-08-2007, 04:08 PM
machangezi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

There should be a limit to everything. People have rights but when there is no control it becomes obscene and thats where Islam puts a limit or draws a line. In Islam one can't have it both ways.

Like what Macha?

Sorry that was out of context.
02-08-2007, 04:08 PM
ChiangMai noon

^^
Only about 60 years ago.
the headscarf too.
02-08-2007, 04:20 PM
ChiangMai noon

as it relates to education.

Quote:

The ban on the headscarf within universities excludes thousands of women from higher education each year. In accordance with a 1997 military ultimatum delivered to the government of the day, the HEC forbids any woman who wears the closefitting headscarf from studying or teaching in higher education. This restriction of women’s choice of dress is discriminatory and violates their right to education, their right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and their right to privacy.

......
02-08-2007, 04:43 PM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

There should be a limit to everything. People have rights but when there is no control it becomes obscene and thats where Islam puts a limit or draws a line. In Islam one can't have it both ways.

Like what Macha?

Sorry that was out of context.

Are you saying that Lily (as did i also) quoted you out of context? or that you made a mistake and you had made a quote out of context?
02-08-2007, 05:43 PM
machangezi

I made a mistake by taking the piss out..... and saying something that I shouldn't have said.
02-08-2007, 06:32 PM
buriramboy

Turkey is 95% in Asia, it is a muslim country, IMO those 2 reasons alone should exclude it from ever becoming a member of the EU. Never mind the financial cost to the rest of Europe that they would incur in bringing Turkey up to standard.
02-08-2007, 06:54 PM
machangezi

Quote:

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Turkey is 95% in Asia, it is a muslim country, IMO those 2 reasons alone should exclude it from ever becoming a member of the EU.

What has economic integration got to do with Religion??:confused:
02-08-2007, 08:05 PM
mad_dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by stroller

What is worrisome is the rift and the rise of the National Party - "Greater Turkey" with bits of China and Finland??? :confused:

In the mid-ninties armed groups did stage some attacks with the aim of creating a state called Eastern Turkistan in the Xiang (s.p) region of China. There are racial and lingistic links that thread through out Central Asia. However I can't for the life of me think of any links between Finland and Turkic peoples.:confused:

With regards to Turkey joining the EU. It will be a very very long bureaucratic process (20 years or more perhaps). France and Germany ( Germany due to its large Turkish population) are opposed to Turkey's membership. Britain and the United States are keen for Turkey to join so they can have a token Rag head state in there continuing attack on the Muslim world.

The process will take so long that it may turn out that Turkey will not want to join as its economy has been growing at a faster rate that the EUs for sometime and are well aware that many Europeans consider them not welcome; Turkish people have a very strong sense of national pride and joining a "club" that doesn't really want them would be an afront to their dignity.

MD BSc