Nato calls for calm after boats seized in Russia-Ukraine clashes

Nato has joined a chorus of western calls for Russia and Ukraine to show restraint as the UN security council prepares to meet amid a dangerous new crisis between the countries and fears of a wider military escalation.


Russia reopened the Kerch strait separating Crimea from the Russian mainland early on Monday after its FSB security service said border patrol boats had fired on and seized three Ukrainian naval ships a day earlier, wounding several crew members.


Kiev said the two small Ukrainian armoured artillery vessels and a tug boat, heading to Ukrainian ports in the Sea of Azov, were observing international maritime rules. Moscow said it had not been notified in advance of the flotilla’s passage and the boats ignored warnings to stop.


Nato said its ambassadors and Ukraine’s envoy would hold emergency talks in Brussels on Monday at the request of the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, after he had spoken to the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg.


Stoltenberg had expressed Nato’s “full support for Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty, including its full navigational rights in its territorial waters under international law”, the military alliance said.


It called for “restraint and de-escalation” and demanded that Russia “ensure unhindered access to Ukrainian ports in the Azov sea in accordance with international law”. Kiev has accused Russia of military aggression over the incident and asked for the international community to punish Russia.


Senior officials from Germany, Russia, Ukraine and France are meeting in Berlin on Monday for previously scheduled talks on the broader situation in Ukraine and will seek a “collective solution” to the latest clash.

Russia-Ukraine relations have been severely strained since Russia’s 2014 annexation of the Crimean peninsula and its support for a pro-Moscow insurgency in eastern Ukraine. In May Vladimir Putin opened a $3.69bn (£2.7bn) bridge over the Kerch strait that links the Russian mainland and the peninsula.


MORE. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-kerch-strait

Is Ukraine in NATO now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neverna

Is Ukraine in NATO now?

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Haven't looked in a long time. Think they're one of the "partner" countries.


At present, NATO has 29 members. In 1949, there were 12 founding members of the Alliance: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom and the United States. The other member countries are: Greece and Turkey (1952), Germany (1955), Spain (1982), the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland (1999), Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia (2004), Albania and Croatia (2009), and Montenegro (2017).


NATO – Ukraine cooperation within “Partnership for Peace”

“Partnership for Peace” (PfP) – is a program of practical bilateral cooperation between NATO and individual partner countries, through which, these countries can develop relations with NATO, independently determining their own priorities for cooperation.
The essence of PfP is the partnership between NATO and a partner country, which is formed on the individual basis, according to the individual needs of the country, and is implemented jointly at the level and with speed, chosen by the government of each participating country.
Ukraine joined PfP on February 8, 1994 after the signing of the relevant document.

Right in time for the US to start shooting at brown people.

Quote:

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The Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement is a European Union Association Agreement between the European Union (EU), Euratom, Ukraine and the EU's 28 member states (which are separate parties in addition to the EU and Euratom). It establishes a political and economic association between the parties. The agreement entered into force on September 1, 2017, and previously parts had been provisionally applied. The parties committed to co-operate and converge economic policy, legislation, and regulation across a broad range of areas, including equal rights for workers, steps towards visa-free movement of people, the exchange of information and staff in the area of justice, the modernisation of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and access to the European Investment Bank. The parties committed to regular summit meetings, and meetings among ministers, other officials, and experts. The agreement furthermore establishes a Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area between the parties.


The agreement commits both parties to promote a gradual convergence toward the EU's Common Security and Defence Policy and European Defence Agency policies.

---

send in macrons EU army. :rofl: that'll put the wind up ivan.

^Typical eu language for social engineering.

Putin is just following the same type of action as China wants to do with the South China Sea.
China builds military bases on the reefs to say we own all movement there.
Putin builds a bridge over the Kerch strait to control the movement of ships to the Sea of Azov then he owns the sea,no more
Ukraine ships allowed to go to Ukraine ports and stuff right of navigation,win win for Russia.

NATO are using Ukraine like a stick to poke the bear. And wont give 2 fucks when the stick ends up broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reddog

Putin builds a bridge over the Kerch strait to control the movement of ships to the Sea of Azov then he owns the sea,no more
Ukraine ships allowed to go to Ukraine ports and stuff right of navigation,win win for Russia.

---

The thread #8 said it all...

^^^ that does seem rather perverse.

WTF is NATO gonna do about it? Nothing, I think, but agree with Tax this is an ideal opportunity for the European Army to flex their muscles...

sounds like the Americans were testing the water using traitorous Ukraine as a bait,

FAILED !!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reddog

Putin is just following the same type of action as China wants to do with the South China Sea.

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Yes. At least Ukraine has NATO supporting it's right to navigate the waters, unlike the wimps in the UN who do nothing to curb China's encroachment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foobar

NATO are using Ukraine like a stick to poke the bear. And wont give 2 fucks when the stick ends up broken.

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Oh don't be so fucking silly. There's only one person doing the poking and he has a veto on the Security Council. Time for more sanctions, because that's all they have.

Quote:

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The situation began ramping up in May, when Russia opened a 19-kilometer, rail-and-highway bridge over the Kerch Strait connecting mainland Russia with the annexed Crimean Peninsula. The bridge's low height restricted the types of merchant ships that could pass, decreasing traffic to service Ukrainian ports in Mariupol and Berdyansk. For those cities, their ports are economic lifelines.

<snip>

Council of Europe Secretary General Thorbjorn Jagland said free passage of the Kerch Strait was guaranteed by the 2003 treaty signed by Russia and Ukraine.

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https://www.rferl.org/a/explainer-ke.../29621909.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^^^ that does seem rather perverse.

WTF is NATO gonna do about it? Nothing, I think, but agree with Tax this is an ideal opportunity for the European Army to flex their muscles...

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WTF NATO? They do not have enough exercise space in Mexican Gulf or in front of Koreas...

Perhaps you should read this:

Lavrov: Russia will not allow NATO ships to enter the Sea of Azov
Friday, October 19, 2018

“Now Ukraine wants to invite NATO to conduct joint exercises in the Sea of Azov, but this will not be possible because our agreement with Ukraine requires mutual consent for the passage of warships into the Sea of Azov,” said Lavrov in his interview with RT France, Paris Match and Le Figaro.

“But they want it, and they are actively encouraged by others,” added Lavrov.

According to the Russian Foreign Minister, the NATO actions near the Russian borders are provocative.

"The accumulation of weapons on our borders, the intention to modernize Europe’s transport infrastructure so that American heavy machinery and likely weapons of other NATO countries would have easy access to our borders – openly provocative exercises, not like ours with China in the middle of Siberia, but in Ukraine, in Georgia and in the Black Sea,” said Lavrov.

The Russian minister added that the deployment of the American division on a permanent basis on the territory of Poland would be a direct violation of the Russia-NATO Founding Act.

Read more
https://uawire.org/lavrov-russia-wil...he-sea-of-azov

Kerch Strait standoff: Ukrainian Navy consciously ignored orders to stop, FSB says
Published time: 27 Nov, 2018

Ukrainian sailors, interviewed by Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) after the standoff near the Crimean coast, admitted they deliberately violated Russian borders while trying to pass through the Kerch Strait.

The FSB has claimed in a statement that the naval standoff in Crimean waters was a “provocative act of the Ukrainian Navy executed upon direct orders by the government in Kiev.” The clash took place on Sunday in the Kerch Strait, which connects mainland Russia and the Crimean peninsula. It involved Ukrainian ships and Russian coast guard vessels.

FSB noted that the territorial waters entered by Ukrainian vessels belonged to Russia even before 2014, when Crimean citizens voted to reunify with the country. It also said two officers from the Ukrainian Security Service, or SBU, were embedded with the intruder ships to coordinate the incursion.

The Federal Security Service released footage of three men identified as Ukrainian service members who had been on the ships. Speaking on camera, the men who look strained but not injured, said their crews deliberately violated Russian maritime borders and ignored repeated orders to stop.

Previously, the FSB said they had detected the Ukrainian flotilla early on, long before it tried to enter Russian waters. Under a maritime protocol, all ships passing through the busy, narrow Kerch Strait should send notifications and report their route. While Kiev says it notified Russian authorities in advance that its navy ships would be sailing through the area, Moscow denies that it was given warning.

While some Western politicians and pundits habitually framed the incident as Russia’s attempt to escalate tensions, there are others who are less convinced.

Commenting on the incident, Virginia Senator Rickard Black said both sides have “some merit to their claims,” because Ukraine and Russia enjoy the freedom of navigation in the strait under a 2003 treaty. However, the Ukrainians “were perhaps a bit reckless and perhaps there was an intention to create a provocation.”

He also noted that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has “an 80-percent disapproval rating” and he is up for re-election in 2019. “I don’t discount the fact that this may have been tied in to the 2019 Ukraine elections,” Black stated.

On the heels of the incident, Poroshenko has imposed martial law in the country – a move which could allow him to call off scheduled elections and remain in power. Moscow has accused Kiev of provoking the entire incident to win sympathy in the West and to help Poroshenko to remain in office.

https://www.rt.com/news/444948-fsb-i...rainian-ships/

Ukraine’s state security service says that its intelligence officers were among the crew on Ukrainian naval ships seized by Russia in a standoff near Crimea.

The SBU agency said in a statement Tuesday that the officers were fulfilling counterintelligence operations for the Ukrainian navy, in response to “psychological and physical pressure” by Russian spy services. It didn’t elaborate, but demanded that Russia stop such activity.

Russia’s FSB intelligence agency said late Monday that that there were SBU officers on board the Ukrainian ships, calling that proof of a “provocation” staged by Ukraine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...10c_story.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neverna

Ukraine’s state security service says that its intelligence officers were among the crew on Ukrainian naval ships seized by Russia in a standoff near Crimea.

The SBU agency said in a statement Tuesday that the officers were fulfilling counterintelligence operations for the Ukrainian navy, in response to “psychological and physical pressure” by Russian spy services. It didn’t elaborate, but demanded that Russia stop such activity.

Russia’s FSB intelligence agency said late Monday that that there were SBU officers on board the Ukrainian ships, calling that proof of a “provocation” staged by Ukraine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...10c_story.html

---

I really don't know why Putin bothers, it's not like anyone is going to war over it, and all it does is increase the risk of more of his filthy lucre being appropriated.

In 1994 Russia signed the treaty called the Budapest Memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine's international borders.
In some of those Wikileak cables, the former Polish foreign minister,Sikorski said Putin and Russia looked at Ukraine
as a rebellious colony so it is no wonder Putin is flexing his power and does not give a stuff what West thinks.
But like Harry said,it will piss off his cronies when more sanctions bit.

Quote:

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On the heels of the incident, Poroshenko has imposed martial law in the country

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I am puzzled, how can a martial law inside the country help to calm the conflict on the high sea?

But perhaps somebody will have a clue (please no names here)...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klondyke

I am puzzled, how can a martial law inside the country help to calm the conflict on the high sea?

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Control the media in Ukraine, ban demonstrations if they want, stuff like that. Maybe mobilise forces quicker too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neverna

Control the media in Ukraine, ban demonstrations if they want, stuff like that. Maybe mobilise forces quicker too?

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Stop Putin organising some fake protests and put men of military age under warning of call up.

Because Putin has control of the press, he can't use them as his imaginary "enemy of the people", so he's using Ukraine.

Before that it was Georgia and Chechnya. He basically nicked bits of them as well. He's a bit of a c u n t, that Putin bloke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Oh don't be so fucking silly. There's only one person doing the poking and he has a veto on the Security Council. Time for more sanctions, because that's all they have.

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Yes ...you're so right once again Harry. I bow to your unrivalled objectivity in all Russian/Chinese geopolitical matters.

NATO would never ever threaten Russia's borders. NATO are a force for good and care very deeply for their Ukrainian cousins while Russia are just being aggressive, expansionist, downright undemocratic and unfreedomy right?



NATO border in blue. Russia border in red.
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2018/11/103.jpg

^
It's really a shame how the Russians are expanding, threatening the peaceful Europe...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neverna
Control the media in Ukraine, ban demonstrations if they want, stuff like that. Maybe mobilise forces quicker too?

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Stop Putin organising some fake protests and put men of military age under warning of call up.

Because Putin has control of the press, he can't use them as his imaginary "enemy of the people", so he's using Ukraine.

Before that it was Georgia and Chechnya. He basically nicked bits of them as well. He's a bit of a c u n t, that Putin bloke.

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Putin should not organize the "fake" Maidan...
And not control the press in Ukraine...

Important that the announced Ukraine's election in January will be now better controlled with the martial law, won't be?

why are you even arguing with Harry? he is a blind nutter, a typical English fool who fall for government lies :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foobar

Yes ...you're so right once again Harry. I bow to your unrivalled objectivity in all Russian/Chinese geopolitical matters.

NATO would never ever threaten Russia's borders. NATO are a force for good and care very deeply for their Ukrainian cousins while Russia are just being aggressive, expansionist, downright undemocratic and unfreedomy right?

---

Have you ever wondered for even a glimmer of a nanosecond why countries in Europe want to be members of NATO?

Do you know what Article 5 does?

Do you think Putin would have invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea if it had been a NATO member?

Russian X35 anti-ship missiles are apparently on their way to Crimea, and Russia will deploy S400 missile defence systems there soon, by the end of the year apparently.


https://www.rt.com/russia/445015-rus...issiles-kerch/
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-uk...-idUKKCN1NX0KM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvXbhPe0Gtk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neverna

Russian X35 anti-ship missiles are apparently on their way to Crimea, and Russia will deploy S400 missile defence systems there soon, by the end of the year apparently.


https://www.rt.com/russia/445015-rus...issiles-kerch/
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-uk...-idUKKCN1NX0KM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvXbhPe0Gtk

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Nooooooooooooooooo. They simple tourist come visit Crimea beautiful seaside.

:smileylaughing:

Big zoom lenses they're bringing this time. :)

Don't they bring a BUK like the one few years ago?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reddog

Putin builds a bridge over the Kerch strait to control the movement of ships to the Sea of Azov then he owns the sea,no more
Ukraine ships allowed to go to Ukraine ports and stuff right of navigation,win win for Russia.

---

You may wish to investigate the bilateral treaty and the agreed operations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

ideal opportunity for the European Army to flex their muscles...

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WTF do you think NATO has been doing for the past 5years?

:rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maanaam

Ukraine has NATO supporting it's right to navigate the waters

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NATO will not support shit. ameristan will, but they believe Russia will only attack Europe and not ameristan.:yerman:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Council of Europe Secretary General Thorbjorn Jagland said free passage of the Kerch Strait was guaranteed by the 2003 treaty signed by Russia and Ukraine.

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Read the treaty and operating conditions and quote the clause, in English or Russian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reddog

it is no wonder Putin is flexing his power and does not give a stuff what West thinks.

---

Russia has laws on it's side, Ukraine does not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klondyke

I am puzzled, how can a martial law inside the country help to calm the conflict on the high sea?

---

I have read that one of the articles of the Martial Law bill will allow for the dismissal of treaties with foreign countries. Which would allow Ukraine to possibly win more support from those peace loving countries ameristan and UK.

From what appears to be a Ukraine official press office site.

Parliament green-lights martial law in Ukraine: 30-day period in certain districts

"What does martial law in Ukraine mean?

"The law allows to:

- Introduce labor service for the sake of defenses, elimination of natural and man-made emergencies, and socially useful work;

- Use the capacity and labor resources of enterprises and organizations of all forms of ownership for the sake of defenses, change their mode of operation and working conditions;

- Withdraw for temporary use the required property of ministries, central and local executive authorities, territorial communities, enterprises and citizens, including vehicles, structures, cars, machinery, equipment and other facilities related to the maintenance of transport, issuing documents of the established sample;

- Set up protection of important facilities of the national economy of Ukraine;

- Impose a curfew and establish a special blackout mode;

- Establish a special mode of border crossing, restrict the freedom of movement of citizens, foreigners and stateless persons, as well as traffic;

- Check IDs of citizens, and if necessary, inspect belongings, vehicles, luggage and cargo, office space and citizens' homes;

- Raise the issue of banning political parties, public organizations if they threaten the sovereignty, national security of Ukraine, its independence and territorial integrity, as well as the lives of citizens;

- Monitor the work of telecoms enterprises, printing companies, publishing houses, television and radio organizations, cultural institutions and organizations, use local radio stations, television centers and printing presses for military needs and explanatory work among the troops and the public, regulate the work of amateur receiving and transmitting radio stations, transmitting information through computer networks;

- Seize from citizens their firearms and ammunition, cold arms, as well as from enterprises, institutions and organizations

– training and military equipment explosives, radioactive substances and materials, potent chemicals and toxic substances;

- Prohibit conscripts and reservists from changing their place of residence without notifying the military command;

- Establish for individuals and legal entities the obligation to house military personnel and military units, subdivisions and institutions;

- Establish the procedure for the use of shelters, structures and other facilities to protect the population, as well as meet the needs of defense;

- Carry out the evacuation of the population, enterprises, institutions, organizations and material values;

- Introduce standardized provision of the population with basic food and non-food goods, medicines;

- Forcibly withdraw and seize property from legal entities and individuals for defense purposes.

https://www.unian.info/politics/1035...districts.html

I'm sure 'arry, MK, ..... will think these are all useful for the good of the local citizen.

My advice if your in Ukraine, is to get out now.

If you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Do you think Putin would have invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea if it had been a NATO member?

---

In that case everybody would be happy, like they were happy in the case of Kosovo...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Have you ever wondered for even a glimmer of a nanosecond why countries in Europe want to be members of NATO?

---

.....is it because they see what happens to countries that insist on absolute sovereignty and refuse to have a US military base deployed within their borders

You know countries like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, China, Russia etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foobar

.....is it because they see what happens to countries that insist on absolute sovereignty and refuse to have a US military base deployed within their borders

You know countries like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, China, Russia etc

---

No....

It's because they don't want Putin invading them like he did Georgia, Chechnya and Ukraine.

None of the above (your list) were NATO actions.

Good effort though, at least you're trying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhOh

I have read that one of the articles of the Martial Law bill will allow for the dismissal of treaties with foreign countries.

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And then posted a link that shows that none of the articles says that.

Putin has violated a treaty though, I think you can safely say that one's flushed down the gary glitter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

None of the above (your list) were NATO actions.

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Different stickers, but same military hardware, personnel and countries...therefore one in the same.

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2018/11/150.jpg

Ukraine's population in the time of Soviet collapse was 52 M, now 42. And that's including the ones who works abroad and returning with the money back home (est. 4 M, most of them in UK, Germany, Czechia).

Wiki:

Quote:

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Ukraine is a developing country and ranks 84th on the Human Development Index. As of 2018, Ukraine has the lowest personal income[18] and the second lowest GDP per capita in Europe. It also suffers from a very high poverty rate and severe corruption.[19] However, because of its extensive fertile farmlands, Ukraine is one of the world's largest grain exporters.[20][21] Ukraine also maintains the second-largest military in Europe after that of Russia.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Putin has violated a treaty though, I think you can safely say that one's flushed down the gary glitter.

---

Title, Clause, Section of your treaty?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

And then posted a link that shows that none of the articles says that.

---

Last section, see above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhOh

- Forcibly withdraw and seize property from legal entities and individuals for defense purposes.

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Item 1.

Word: withdraw

Definition: She had to withdraw from the ........... because she had .......

Item 2.

Words: legal entities

Definition: A company or organization that has legal rights and responsibilities, for example the right to make contracts and the responsibility to paydebts

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/withdraw

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...legal+entities


Or is your knowledge of the English Language limited to puerilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

They simple tourist come visit Crimea beautiful seaside.

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Part of the tourist trail.

The defensive systems have been in sunny Crimea for years. Just along the coast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foobar

Different stickers, but same military hardware, personnel and countries...therefore one in the same.

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2018/11/150.jpg

---

The Iraqi government asked NATO to come in and train their soldiers. In 2004. Probably because, you know, NATO are quite good at that military shit.

and no, you can't go inventing imaginary wars.