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At times I read and dabble in World War II.
I have at times read that the Dresden bombings by the Allies amounted to war crimes because a lot of the casualties were civilian. I'll post some artlcles soon.
But I ask, to those have have studied and read about the Dresden bombings: were they justified in an attempt to win the war against Germany and Axis powers or did these Dresden bombing amount do a war crime? Were these bombings justified? Necesarry?
The targeting of civilians is a war crime, as stated under International Law.
However there is one psychotic American poster here on TD who thinks otherwise.
I can hear the voices "only one!"
Did the boxheads bomb London ? Were the Nazi's the aggressors ? Fuck Dresden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
There was no strategic advantage in bombing Dresden, I have no doubt it was a war crime. However, in a war which probably marked the lowest ever point in human ethics and morality it doesn't particularly stand out. To put it bluntly, while I do feel it was an atrocity I fundamentally feel, and I know this is not a good thing, that it was good that the Nazi cnuts who made up the vast majority of the German population at that time got a taste of their own medicine. Revenge pure and simple. While we're at it I also believe that the atrocities inflicted on the civilian population of Germany by the Soviet Red Army were also amply deserved. If I had been Mashall Zhukov I would have issued a standing order to shoot every German on sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Bomber Harris, was he a hero?
There is a statue of him in London.
Historically he wasn't a hero, he was utterly ostracised after the war. Churchill, on seeing film of the Dresden bombings, asked "are we become beasts that we do such things?". This from the man who authorised aerial gassings of the Mesopotamian Kurds:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by good2bhappy
Both sides were bombing civilians to lower morale and sap the will to fight.
I don't understand why Dresden is picked out. There were countless other bombings where many civilians were killed. Hamburg and Berlin for a start and countless raids on the Ruhr. It's brought up nowadays because of the high civilian casualties. At the time, it was thought of as a very successful action.
London, Coventry and Bristol were also very heavily bombed, too.
WW II was unique, it was the first war where civilian casualties outnumbered military casualties. It maybe called World War II, but, it should have been called Total War I.
Certainly, today, I would be against any bombing of civilian targets. The trouble with looking back at history, is that we overlay our own morality and way of thinking to a time where it was different and cannot be applied.
Dresden also happened when the Allies already had an inkling of what was happening to the Jews, plus their own civilian casualties. To think about being merciful to the enemy would have seemed the height of stupidity.
Don't forget, Hitler was voted into power and I'm sure the Allies had pictures of wildly cheering civilians waving flags as the tanks rolled through Poland, Russia and all of Europe. I'm sure the Allies saw German civilians as complicit in Germany starting the war.
Dresden is regrettable, but, understandable if you try and put yourself in the Allies position.
I was under the impression that Dresden was in response to Coventry. Is that right?
Not wanting to go off topic, but can you brief me and the others on this gassing Mesopotamian Kurds, B0b?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
I've never heard of this, and want to learn. TIA.
sure Milky, here it is.
Never Fight a Land War in Asia: Early Iraq
Civilians usually suffer during and after a war and it's a matter of debate whether German civilians were innocent or were enthusiastic supporters of their government. Even today, some Germans still complain about the bombing of their cities at a time when the country was just about beaten. They are especially angry about incendiary bombs.
I'm old enough to remember seeing the devastation caused to England by explosive and incendiary bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe. I also remember the talk about the friends and neighbours killed in action or in bombed buildings. London, Liverpool and Coventry weren't the only cities to be hit. I guess that Britons and the escapee Poles fighting with them were a tad angry and that the ferocity of the attacks on German cities had an element of revenge to it.
If Churchill expressed horror, assume that he feared reaction at home to the bombings and was aware that there would be a General Election after the war ended. The voters had to put up with him during WWII but they would have remembered his treatment of miners and other during the Depression of the 1930's.
However, I abhor the blind disregard of civilians welfare during wartime, whichever 'side' commits the crimes and whether the war is an old one or current. Sadly, whenever there is war, innocent people will be robbed, murdered, mutilated or raped as if it's legitimate. If you want to, you could use the old testament and later documents to justify it -but religions and its use of violence is another subject.
Is there an arguement that, in WWII there was a bit of a grey area as to what was considered "civilians" and "combatants". Given the limitations of technology - none of this super accurate bombing etc. - would the bombing of the Home Guard or the French Resistance have been justified as "enemy combatants"?
I read that the strategic bombing of Cologne and Dresden was to destroy the will of the people to fight.
I also believe as does Jandajoy that the bombing of Dresden was in direct response to the attack on Coventry.I studied this during part of my history degree. Bomber Harris did not select targets this was done by G2 (Operations) in concurrence with the government, remember bombing is just not about killing people it also aids lowering of morale in the opposing troops or civilians.This decision would have been taken at the highest level,what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? was that a war crime? remember it shortened the war and saved many American lives in the Far East. If the Russians had not been able to advance to Berlin from the East maybe we would have done the same to a major city in Germany?
In some cases, it was difficult to hit a military target without risks the lives of nearby civilians. For example, an attempt to destroy a railway bridge over the River Trent one night led to the complete destruction of a nearby bakery that had a full night shift. Many bodies were never found.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandajoy
Home Guard members were civilians in reserved occupations who did their bit part time to watch for invaders. They were among other civilians most of the time and not identifiable, of course, in a night bombing raid. French and other resistance fighters were rounded up individually with others that the SS and German army disliked and tortured then killed.
I think that the overriding principle is that warmongers and their forces don't give a damn about civilians. If they did, they would 'jaw jaw' instead.
^ But I am not suggesting that "They started it".
War is/was but more so was a series of events that were both unpredictable and unaknowledgeable. One of the greatest explorations of war, as was, must be seen in Tolstoys War and Peace. The crux of his arguement is that though historians need to justify their existance by applying plaudits to the generals and leaders of the time in retrospect, it was in fact the men at the front line, who, in blind panic for their lives, dictated the ebb and flow of a battle.
Nowadays technology dictates tactics. I'd suggest that up untill recent times, given the total lack of efficient communications it was down, as much as anything, to pure luck.
As Tolstoy says, and I don't quote cos I cant be assed, a single man that shouts hurrah and runs forward rather than backward can change the entire battle front.
I agree with what you say JJ. What it means today, though, is that the one man doing his own thing can kill many people in one action or with one order.
What a pity that Christmas Day football game in WWI didn't change the course of that war.
1939-1945 Fuck Dresden & fuck the Germans.
You want to talk about German civillian casualties. Tell that to the surviving jews of the death camps who were spit upon by the German swines en-route to other forced labour camps.
Amen to that mate. (and I'm an atheist)Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
One thing you said struck home,
"one man doing his own thing can kill many people in one action or with one order."
The difference nowadays. IMO, is that the "one man" has access to unbelievable powers of destruction. In the past Napolean, Churchill whomever might give an order and the results and effect of said order were mostly dependent on those carrying out those orders. i.e could work, might work, fuck it lets go home, (S. Milligan).
Now its easy. You issue a directive and the binary systems click and BOOM>
And the consequences are considered in votes not bodies.
i hate the geamans, they bombed our chip shop
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy55
What, all of them? Cripes! They really meant to get it, didn't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin
Splendid commentary, thanks for the input. You'll feel better in the morning.
No, he refers to the geamans, at number 42. they bombed his chip shop but only 'cos of the lack of peas. Musharrif mushies, the best food west of the Pakistan border.Quote:
Originally Posted by MordenQuote:
Originally Posted by andy55
What, all of them? Cripes! They really meant to get it, didn't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandajoyNo, he refers to the geamans, at number 42. they bombed his chip shop but only 'cos of the lack of peas. Musharrif mushies, the best food west of the Pakistan border.Quote:
Originally Posted by MordenQuote:
Originally Posted by andy55
What, all of them? Cripes! They really meant to get it, didn't they?
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Dresden was a military and industrial target, which was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.
So in other words FK Dresden!!!