Thread: Electric Cars ard not the future!

Electrics are fine for niche applications which includes eco-dreamers who want to feel good about driving an electric car. But they aren't displacing internal combustion. These govt mandates will run into a wall of reality sooner than later.

Originally Posted by S Landreth

I knew more about their higher-end EV’s than the salesperson

did they offer you a job

^^ we should be going hydrogen and using renewables to split water instead of digging up more of the planet and polluting it with battery production

Originally Posted by malmomike77

^^ we should be going hydrogen and using renewables to split water instead of digging up more of the planet and polluting it with battery production

I agree, and actually taught a university course on this area to business majors three or four times: "The Hydrogen Future of Korea". It is problematic however due to it's need to be massively cooled before it gets small enough to be reasonably contained - that costs a lot of energy.

Australians will be pleased that Korea has signed a big deal to get their hydrogen from central Australia, but this involves massive logistical problems including the design of new ships.

It's unlikely that hyrodrogen will ever beat electric for city use cars, but for long distance truck haulage, shipping and possibly air travel, it could end up being the best solution. Many countries have a plan to have a significant amount of hydrogen usage by 2035/2040.

But beware, not all hydrogen is clean (green hydrogen). So, the oil industries are pushing blue and grey hydrogen (which isn't very clean); purple and pink hydrogen is being pushed by the nuclear industry which creates its own problems..., etc. Here's a quick and easy chart:



(As you can see above, plenty of opportunity for dirty corporations to lie to the public about their ecological credentials... &, this is happening already.)

Not to mention not requiring all this charging infra - but we seem to be rushing headlong into electric and flushing our automotive industries down the drain in favour of cheap chinky battery production. Oh well it won't be an issue in 20 or so years.

Originally Posted by Backspin

Electrics are fine for niche applications which includes eco-dreamers who want to feel good about driving an electric car. But they aren't displacing internal combustion. These govt mandates will run into a wall of reality sooner than later.

There's definitely a wall of reality that will be hit soon. By drivers with their heads in a large bucket of sand like you and Joe.

A whole new infrastructure is required for hydrogen too because it takes up a lot of space, so you need pipes to transport it at normal temperatures, aswellas massive containers and cooling systems at the end of those pipes, in ships, in airplanes, in trucks/buses, etc. Plus, there can be problems: it's very combustible - fancy an airship trip?

Originally Posted by malmomike77

did they offer you a job

He clearly was not qualified. Being ignorant of EV is a job requirement.

Hydrogen has a place in the chemical industry, maybe in some energy intensive industries. It has none in the car industry. I have been following hydrogen for ~50 years and nothing has changed in the fundamentals of it. It wasn't, it isn't and it won't ever be the basis of transportation, except possibly airline industry.

Hydrogen will play an increasingly large part in clean energy, imho.

Takeovers is probably right with regard to cars (although some manufacturers such as Toyota have working vehicles).

Hydrogen delivery: Hydrogen Delivery | Department of Energy

Long distance trunking is a great area, and already in use: Hyundai Fuel Cell Truck & Bus | Hydrogen-powered, zero-emission car

Airplanes are very difficult (due to weight and size of holding the hydrogen), but might be possible; they are certainly in development by Airbus: Airbus develops fuel-cell engine for hydrogen plane | Reuters

Long distance buses are similar to long distance trucks, so should be possible: Fuel Cell Electric Buses | Knowledge baseObviously space travel likes it's hydrogen: NASA -
Liquid Hydrogen--the Fuel of Choice for Space Exploration

The EU, Germany, South Korea have made massive investment in hydrogen as a clean fuel, so that will happen:

https://www.wfw.com/articles/the-eur...ogen-strategy/

https://www.energypartnership.cl/newsroom/hydrogen/

Hydrogen cities are already being created in Korea; this makes a lot of sense because once you have the cost of setting up the infrastructure then you want you housing and malls (for energy), your long distance bus and truck haulage fueling stations, and other elements such as energy grid and management close together: https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/south-korea-to-create-six-hydrogen-cities-that-would-use-h2-in-buildings-and-transport-as-part-of-daily-life/2-1-1385821

&, the government roadmap: https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2...boost-industry

South Korea is a good indicator because all the major industry players (Posco to make the steal tubes, Hyundai Heavy Industries to make the power plants, Hyundai Trucks to make the long distance trucks and buses, etc,) work together to form government policy - thus, a fully integrated plan. That plan has been made, money put in, more money put aside, international agreements made and laws passed.

It is done...

Australia and Korea agreement from 2021: https://www.dcceew.gov.au/about/news...ublic-of-korea


The hydrogen future is already being constructed and is real, but in the sense of personal cars it will have little if any impact (however, when you have city hubs with refueling station then why not refuel your hydrogen car too? Buy one now if you want (and the infrastructure will be in place by 2035/2040): https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen

Hydrogen energetic efficiency is at least 4 times worse than direct electricity use. No way to overcome that except in areas where using hydrogen is essential.

The rush into electric cars and renewables are going to hit significant hurdles. Firstly the availability of clean energy to charge EVs. Secondly It is going to require a massive increase in raw materials production. It is estimated some materials will need a doubling of production within a relatively short period, something that has never been achieved before. Solar panel efficiency varies from place to place and is not suitable in every country, likewise for obvious reasons wind turbines. Solar panels, chiefly made in China will need to be ramped up. The solar industry is subsidised by the Chinese govt and it is estimated alternative manufacturing countries may see solar panels increase in price by 200 to 400 percent. IMO Hybrids will be the main car power source for many years to come. Then of course there is the massive taxes on petroleum fuels that many govts gouge out of the taxpayer that will no doubt be transferred to EVs in some form of road tax in the future.

Many problems ahead for hydrogen, and inherent difficulties - that is true. However, the local, governmental and international laws, agreements and finances are in place and a huge amount of development work is being done to get ready for 2040-ish.

Its betamax and VHS all over again this time driven by massive amounts of lobbying cash and politicians driven by useless advisors on the take.

Originally Posted by Joe 90

Boring whinging long winded prick I hope never to watch again that wasted his money on a Porche EV. 750 pounds for a service? What an absolute tool.

Originally Posted by Backspin

Electrics are fine for niche applications which includes eco-dreamers who want to feel good about driving an electric car. But they aren't displacing internal combustion. These govt mandates will run into a wall of reality sooner than later.

Not boring prick who has intelligence.

Yeah, current EVs are pretty crap, imho - by this stage, they should be a lot better; cheaper, better batteries, more comfortable rides, better infrastructure, less polluting manufacturing processes, etc. But, I still think they're required (especially as small vehicles in cities) for the sake of the environment. They are current a transitional technology, but consumers are paying a lot for a very average (or poor) product currently. Hopefully, they'll be a lot better and cheaper before long.

Here's an interesting video:

The EV has problems with resource use and the side effects of production processes. There are further issues with the infrastructure required to charge EVs. The charging infrastructure will be different in small heavily populated countries and larger low density countries.
Dont forget the ICE. Production will continue wherever it is permitted, leading to poorer countries taking the bulk of remaining production. Current production will have life prolonged if only for sentimental reasons.
Not sure how significant the following is for so called classic cars, but if backspin is anything to go by, the ICE business will become niche and specialised to service all those folk who resist new technology, for whatever reason!
ULEZ for London is seen today as highly punitive for individuals, but it’s likely to be the norm for big cities who have no other option to pursue for the future.

With adequate government support, the EV in some form, will grow because it has to.

For high density populations, could multi story car parks be the charging solution?
Why did freight move from rail to road? Was government funded railways the problem, or was rail freight just the low hanging fruit?

Yet another high tech, rapid evolution for clever people to deal with!

This video is interesting. It sees a hybrid v plug-in hybrid v fully electric with regard to cost and range on the motorway and in the city. Suffice to say, the fully electric is expensive (unless you charge it in at home everytime and don't go out of "home range"...

EV Suspected As Cause Of Cargo Ship Fire That Burned 3,000 Cars

And caused a death