"Lenshare" in Thailand...It's legality...Anyone know about this ?

[Chipper41]

I you haven't heard about this Thai custom or dont live in Thailand, then I guess this term will be pretty meaningless to you!

However I have no doubt that amongst some of the Thai residents here(or definitely their partners ) the issue of " lenshare " will surely resonate......

I am involved in it (my spouse that is) and its turning nasty.....

Is it legal(debt wise) or is it a form of gambling? Len. (play). Share is the terminology and there are "muu". (hands ) in the group who "win" if they bid up enough interst rates which can be very high!!!!!!

I know there are some pretty knowledgable people on this forum,some lawyers even...
and I would certainly like to hear from anyone with opinions on this issue...even advice


Thank you

[dirtydog]

Pretty sure it is illegal, if I remember rightly whomever puts up the most money gets to keep the pot for a certain period, ie 1 month and use the money as they wish, seems to work out that the richest will always have the pot, but the poor get a small amount of interest from it.

[Norton]

I am involved in it (my spouse that is) and its turning nasty

It can turn very nasty. Works fine as all in the Lenshare group are trustworthy.
I'm not sure of it's legality but there is a gambling aspect to it.

Some decent info on Lenshare here:

http://library.wur.nl/way/catalogue/documents/FLR17.pdf

[nidhogg]

http://library.wur.nl/way/catalogue/documents/FLR17.pdf

Bloody good read. Thanks.

[pet coon]

As mentioned, if all participants are trustworthy, it gives those involved a source of capital to buy stock for business, etc. A member can only buy the pot 1 time during the time frame allowed (10 members normally) The dishonest individual may be in several "shares", buy all on a given day and then abscond with the funds.

[hazz]

^as you say there is an incentive for earlier winners of the pool to run off, so it's very much dependent on trust and fear of consequences. Though one had to ak is having free access to the first pot... Worth being liable for the others not making their payments?

I can see all kinds of potential for this going south and getting very nasty very quickly if/when something goes wrong

Norton, thanks for the read, very interesting reading

[Chipper41]

[QUOTE=Norton;2191221]

I am involved in it (my spouse that is) and its turning nasty

It can turn very nasty. Works fine as all in the Lenshare group are trustworthy.
I'm not sure of it's legality but there is a gambling aspect to it.

Some decent info on Lenshare here:



Thank you for this and a little more info!
The legality is indeed in question but in this case the the partner involved is deceased and the other share players have launched legal proceedings against the estate, which would seem to support the non gambling element of the lenshare scheme...

There is no real evidence that would hold up in any Western court,just a few bits of unsigned pages of nicknames and amounts paid in and interest received and I doubt that would hold up in any court but there are a bunch of Isaan women all supporting each other and that might mean something to the court !!!!!! TIT

It will be opposed in court for sure and even to the appeal court if necessary as principles more than money apply here, but it's going to cost for sure Mso any advice will be appreciated......

Thank you

[hazz]

Nieve as this is, given the byzantine nature of thai village politics, jealousy and opportunism make everything, I would have though the easiest way of dealing with the death of a lendshare member or organiser would be for the estate to play the part of the deceased until the end that round of the scheme. I can see lendshare being a messy thing to wind up in mid play.

The best advice I can give you. is if you have to live with these people who are going to get into court with your relatives.... principles might come with a cost you may well regard with hindsight as too high, regrettably there are circumstances where swallowing your pride and being pragmatic is by far the best solution. Best of luck in what ever you do

[Chipper41]

Nieve as this is, given the byzantine nature of thai village politics, jealousy and opportunism make everything, I would have though the easiest way of dealing with the death of a lendshare member or organiser would be for the estate to play the part of the deceased until the end that round of the scheme. I can see lendshare being a messy thing to wind up in mid play.

The best advice I can give you. is if you have to live with these people who are going to get into court with your relatives.... principles might come with a cost you may well regard with hindsight as too high, regrettably there are circumstances where swallowing your pride and being pragmatic is by far the best solution. Best of luck in what ever you do

Well it's a bit late for the first option!!!! Regarding the second point I don't have to live with any of the claimants and in fact I only know personally 1 of them!

The point re the principles versus the realities is always relevant and at some point may well be necessary, but the amounts involved are large(millions) and there is no doubt in my mind that some of them are taking the piss, knowing the there is no way for the deceased to answer......

The problem is if course I don't know which of them (over 30) are telling the truth and if I give in to one it opens the floodgates to them all!!!!!

The question is...Can they win in court ? How legal is all this with its gambling implications? I don't feel like giving in to a bunch of#######s who are just cashing in and of course if I wasnt a falang here (with all it's baggage) it would all have been dropped by now !

It's a serious dilemma!!!!!

[dirtydog]

Maybe get a lawyer as there could be such large amounts involved.

[hazz]

^^Unfortunately I don't have the expertise to comment on the law or court cases in thailand, beyond the need to put real effort and care in to choosing your lawyer as they are a rather lazy bunch who given the chance are very much into "telling the client something will be/has been done... is the same as doing it".

Sorry I cannot help further than that, but best of luck

[Chipper41]

Thanks both of you .There have been lawyers involved for over 8months already!

As to whether he's good or not ......I don't know and that's the problem also.

Do these people want to test this up to the Court of Appeal or not? I can afford it but can they? Will they? Thais don't like lawyers (who does.) but I'm not afraid of court proceedings.....I've been in enough in UK !!!!! The High Court in the Strand is a familiar place to me...

Personal safety may be an issue also but I don't believe they'll go that far as I'm an innocent party to all this share business and they know it....

[hazz]

I did have a chat with better half, who did a degree in law, before going into public policy and becoming a civil servant... so administrative law is more her thing.. so bare that in mind and don't act on what I say below without checking with someone who works with these laws professionally.

What she told me is that these schemes have been used by scammers for decades and a long time ago the government passed an act to make them illegal because of the trouble they were causing.

She also said its is very hard to enforce a debt to an illegal investment scheme and that all parties are breaking the law, though if enough money is involved the organisers will get hunted down by government agencies; chasing either justice for the victims or more likely their cut for not doing so.

apparently what happened in the past is the government will seize the money and ask the victims to come forward, they usually don't because they didn't pay tax on the money and they know that the tax office will shake them down if they do, after a while the unclaimed money kind of disappears into government accounts or some well connected persons personal account.

She call not see why anyone would take the deceased persons estate to court, given the risks they are taking themselves and the issues they will have in winning the case without bribery.

I would also like to add on the personal safety front, thai's can get very self destructively violent and unpleasant over money when they have decided they are the wronged party. There is a case of a foreigner who has been effectively murdered by a builder over a disputed bill of a few hundred pounds. Crap gun men can be hired for 10's thousands of baht and good ones for 100's... and you are standing between these people and millions of that

[sulasno]

Lenshare aka as tontine is a way to raise money by paying interest through bidding

There are 2 variations and the Thai's style is much easier to abuse. Although not legal, the Court recognise any claims up to a level (which is quite low and I forgot the amount)

[Chipper41]

I did have a chat with better half, who did a degree in law, before going into public policy and becoming a civil servant... so administrative law is more her thing.. so bare that in mind and don't act on what I say below without checking with someone who works with these laws professionally.

What she told me is that these schemes have been used by scammers for decades and a long time ago the government passed an act to make them illegal because of the trouble they were causing.

She also said its is very hard to enforce a debt to an illegal investment scheme and that all parties are breaking the law, though if enough money is involved the organisers will get hunted down by government agencies; chasing either justice for the victims or more likely their cut for not doing so.

apparently what happened in the past is the government will seize the money and ask the victims to come forward, they usually don't because they didn't pay tax on the money and they know that the tax office will shake them down if they do, after a while the unclaimed money kind of disappears into government accounts or some well connected persons personal account.

She call not see why anyone would take the deceased persons estate to court, given the risks they are taking themselves and the issues they will have in winning the case without bribery.

I would also like to add on the personal safety front, thai's can get very self destructively violent and unpleasant over money when they have decided they are the wronged party. There is a case of a foreigner who has been effectively murdered by a builder over a disputed bill of a few hundred pounds. Crap gun men can be hired for 10's thousands of baht and good ones for 100's... and you are standing between these people and millions of that

Thats extremely Interesting and I will discuss this point with my lawyer tomorrow

Actually I have had 3lawyers already on this and the first one (pulled out for personal reasons) said they had no chance to sue the estate........But they are!!!!!!!

On the personal safety front I don't believe I'm in real danger as all the parties know that I'm innocent of any involvement in this share business and I don't believe that (if I act circumspectly and show an acceptable degree of respect and politeness in dealing with them) they will go that far!! I hope

This is essentially a Thai on Thai business and I personally haven't injured any of them...
It's just that I am standing in their way as the "rich" Farang!!!!!! The easy target..

I much appreciate your advice .....

[Chipper41]

Lenshare aka as tontine is a way to raise money by paying interest through bidding

There are 2 variations and the Thai's style is much easier to abuse. Although not legal, the Court recognise any claims up to a level (which is quite low and I forgot the amount)

If its not legal then how can the court allow all these claims to be entered?

I think it is legal but the point you raise could indeed be relevant.

The claims are for both principal and interest (40%!!!!!!!!!!)

[Chipper41]

The problem I have in not giving out more details is I'm not totally sure if any of the lenshare players can access this forum .....Some of them have Farang partners!

[Katana]

There is little to stop anyone bringing a civil suit against anyone or any entity.
The illegal part not paying tax not being a registered lending entity make no difference to whether some one is claiming to be owed an asset or a sum of money.

It would be a good tactic to try and get on the record from each party that is trying to claim some of the estate, things like the amounts, the interest, previous amounts and interest, tax paid and if not paid why not. If your lawyer was requesting this information it may make some parties think about what they will be swearing to and putting into the official record.

Mark

[dirtydog]

^The court case will not be about tax evasion, so why even bring it up, it will just be ignored as it has nothing at all to do with charges that are being filed, plus the money hasn't even been paid so why would they pay tax on it?

[Gerbil]

Ok.

I'm calling troll.

The largest here I've heard of here is with 12 partners and 5000 baht a round. Anything bigger is insane..... Oh wait... We are in Thailand after all

[tsicar]

I did have a chat with better half, who did a degree in law, before going into public policy and becoming a civil servant... so administrative law is more her thing.. so bare that in mind and don't act on what I say below without checking with someone who works with these laws professionally.

What she told me is that these schemes have been used by scammers for decades and a long time ago the government passed an act to make them illegal because of the trouble they were causing.

She also said its is very hard to enforce a debt to an illegal investment scheme and that all parties are breaking the law, though if enough money is involved the organisers will get hunted down by government agencies; chasing either justice for the victims or more likely their cut for not doing so.

apparently what happened in the past is the government will seize the money and ask the victims to come forward, they usually don't because they didn't pay tax on the money and they know that the tax office will shake them down if they do, after a while the unclaimed money kind of disappears into government accounts or some well connected persons personal account.

She call not see why anyone would take the deceased persons estate to court, given the risks they are taking themselves and the issues they will have in winning the case without bribery.

I would also like to add on the personal safety front, thai's can get very self destructively violent and unpleasant over money when they have decided they are the wronged party. There is a case of a foreigner who has been effectively murdered by a builder over a disputed bill of a few hundred pounds. Crap gun men can be hired for 10's thousands of baht and good ones for 100's... and you are standing between these people and millions of that

Thats extremely Interesting and I will discuss this point with my lawyer tomorrow

Actually I have had 3lawyers already on this and the first one (pulled out for personal reasons) said they had no chance to sue the estate........But they are!!!!!!!

On the personal safety front I don't believe I'm in real danger as all the parties know that I'm innocent of any involvement in this share business and I don't believe that (if I act circumspectly and show an acceptable degree of respect and politeness in dealing with them) they will go that far!! I hope

This is essentially a Thai on Thai business and I personally haven't injured any of them...
It's just that I am standing in their way as the "rich" Farang!!!!!! The easy target..

I much appreciate your advice .....

ok.
" rich farang, easy target" thing means you already know what is going on.

1.
tell your thai lawyers to fuk off:
they are wasting your time and stealing your money.
2.
stop acting politely and respectfully, and tell the thais to fuk off: they are like dogs and see respect as fear and they will prey on this.
3.
smack your wife a few times around the ears and make her aware that if she ever gets involved in this or any type of thai shit again, you will kill her.
4.
stop believing the thai bullshit about : "oooh. dahk-ling, if you don't pay they will kill me/you" etc.
the thais are habitual cowards and they know where they stand as far as the law goes about their silly little scheme.
respond to threats with action, so they know you are serious. and willl not back down.
yes, the news is full of idiots who get taken out in driveby shootings, etc, but this is smalltime village shit and if you back down yiou will become a victim for life.

fuk the respect: do they fukkn deserve it?

tell them tsicar sez so!

[hazz]

Ok.

I'm calling troll.

The largest here I've heard of here is with 12 partners and 5000 baht a round. Anything bigger is insane..... Oh wait... We are in Thailand after all

I've been talking about it with some of better halves colleagues and apprently in the past (70s-90s) they have had lendshare schemes involving some quite big people in the civil service which have gone south with organisers disappeared with millions of that; often pulling off a chalerm and returning after a few years in hiding

so yes more than 5000 Baht is insane and this is thailand. the two often correlate

[Chipper41]

Thank you all for your advice here

To Tsicar.......My wife is dead......they are sueing me as executor of her estate!

To Gerbil......No troll(I wish!). And share is (much!!!)more than 5000baht month !!!!!

To Katana and DD....This is NOT the first round but the second and I'm assured that all the players of the first round did indeed make a profit on its completion . Therefore it is possible there are tax implications and I will take this up with my lawyer

Otherwise I'll have to just face them down in court...not something I'm looking forward to, but I cannot let this lot if *************s just get away with what seem to be spurious claims and minimal evidence!

[Chipper41]

There is little to stop anyone bringing a civil suit against anyone or any entity.
The illegal part not paying tax not being a registered lending entity make no difference to whether some one is claiming to be owed an asset or a sum of money.

It would be a good tactic to try and get on the record from each party that is trying to claim some of the estate, things like the amounts, the interest, previous amounts and interest, tax paid and if not paid why not. If your lawyer was requesting this information it may make some parties think about what they will be swearing to and putting into the official record.

Mark

Absolutely.....and this will be done!