Thread: Romanization of Falong/Farang/Farung

interesting stuff.

i had thought that romanisation of thai was developed when thais were considering abandoning their alphabet in order to change over to using the latin alphabet.

Todd

You faux toughness is noted......

we disagree on one thing.....

Originally Posted by toddaniels

we both agree on the fact that the system is totally worthless looking at words from a non-native speakers perspective.

I don't think it is worthless... I said

Originally Posted by Bobcock

understand the system and you will benefit from it.

but it is wasted on most of you........

That's me being faux pompous again.

Santi.

falang/ farang/ falong is Arabic, anyway.


Santi. Shukran. Shalom.

Persian according to the above soources, although I think we can all agree the Thais have made it very much their own....

Then the rabs prolly borrowed it off the persians (heck, our word 'paradise' we stole form them)- the word was spread through SE asia by arab traders, coming down the malayan peninsula and on to Indonesia. they were the first 'farangs'- or ferringhi, as the say in malaysia. it just means foreigner in original language, as i understand it, and 'farang' & 'foreigner' may well be linguistically related too.

they weren't Arabs, they were Persians, the Farsi word for foeigner was farangi.

they also spread a similar version down Ethiopia way.....

Funny cos i have a mate who is Ethiopean and he looks cleary Persian....ish

There is no reason to waste the slightest bit of time learning to understand their (as in the thais) government approved version of karaoke. Understanding the system won't make you even marginally better in speaking, reading or understanding Thai..

As I have pointed out, there's no difference in long short vowels, no intonation, and no silent character marker.

I stand by my assertion that it's totally worthless!

Alas, that means we must agree to disagree on everything but the pronunciation of what I call "the F word" here.. (which BTW is ฝรั่ง).

Originally Posted by toddaniels

I stand by my assertion that it's totally worthless!

Keep standing.... matters not a jot to me

Originally Posted by Bobcock

It is reckoned that in about 75% of the words that end in a vowel, that vowel is redundant.

It's not redundant. It modifies the tone.

Originally Posted by Bobcock

matters not a jot to me

With you there. Still, it's fun stirring up the wanklets.

Agreed, sorry I meant to the Western reader with no knowledge of the system.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by Bobcock

It is reckoned that in about 75% of the words that end in a vowel, that vowel is redundant.

It's not redundant. It modifies the tone.

Hi DrBob
Really? Can you give some examples, please?

Sorry this is long, stick with it, if you can;

Well, there Bobcock; feel free to keep your oh-so dark rose colored glasses on and make sure your blinders are tightened down to the degree you can't see the big picture. It seems to work for you.. I mean who am I to piss in your iced Chang beer?

As far as DrBob's post saying that the silent character is not redundant and modifies the tone.. After a quick perusal thru a Thai dictionary, I must disagree;

Actually the "silent vowel" over usually a final consonant doesn't affect the tone of the word one iota (or not any word I could find which wasn't a compound word where the final consonant comes "alive" when it's combined with another word). It mostly shows Thais that the word came from Sanskrit or Pali origin..

The intonation of Thai words are primarily governed by 4 things;
1 - class of the beginning consonant
2 - short or long vowel
3 - "live" (open) or "dead" (closed) endings
4 - tone mark (if any)

Examples;
ชาติ (the word for "national; of a nation; race; of a country") but the ิ above the last character is totally silent, and plays NO role in the tone of the word. In phonemic Thai (the thai used in thai dictionaries) it's; ชาด, in Benjawan Becker's Paiboon it's; châat, and in RTGS; the government's official system (NOT the version they use on signage) it's; chat

สุวรรณภูมิ (the name of the airport); again the ิ over the ม, plays NO role in the tone of the last syllable; ภูมิ. Phonemic Thai shows it as; สุ-วัน-นะ-พูม, Benjawan's Paiboon shows it as; sù wan ná puum, RTGS shows it as; suwannaphum, yet all the signage scattered around the city shows it as Suvarnabhumi (even though Thai doesn't even have a fricking "V" in their alphabetic system! The closest they can get it it is ว which is a "W" and is actually the character used in the word)

ประพฤติ (the word for "behave, act, conduct oneself) in Phonemic Thai is; ปฺระ-พฺรึด, in Paiboon it's; bprà prʉ́t and RTGS it's; praphruet..

ประวัติ the word for "history; record; story; account; chronicle" in Phonemic Thai is; ปฺระ-หฺวัด, Paiboon; bprà wàt and RTGS; prawat. However the tone of the second syllable is วัติ is governed by the first syllable of this word as it follows a some what obscure rule;

"In some disyllabic words, when the first syllable has mid- or high-class initial and the second is dead with a low-class initial, the tone of the second syllable is determined from the first syllable."

It is interesting to note that leaving off the silent ิ on the 4 words I listed wouldn't change the intonation of the syllables in the least. ชาติ spelled as ชาต would still be pronounced with a falling tone. The last syllable of สุวรรณภูมิ if spelled as ภูม would still be a mid tone. The second syllable of ประพฤติ if spelled as พฤต would still be high toned and finally the second syllable of ประวัติ if spelled as วัต would still follow the sometimes used rule I quoted and be a low tone. So you see; having a silent vowel above the last character didn't change the tone rule for ANY of those syllables.

IF there are examples where the tone is affected by a silent vowel over the last character (where the word doesn't have ไม้ทัณฑฆาต; the mark ์ silencing a letter called a การันต์) I'd like to see it. I'm totally open to the concept, I just couldn't think of any where this actually happens..

Again, sorry this was a long post..

Originally Posted by toddaniels

ชาติ spelled as ชาต would still be pronounced with a falling tone.

wow, ya don't say. impressed by your knowledge of thai script though tod.

impressed by the list of English words from Persian/Farsi, as well- to bring this rather convoluted thread back to the farang thing.

Words as diverse as balcony, serendibity, paradise, alfalfa, carafe, tulip, peach, india, and seersucker.
List of English words of Persian origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We should study Persian history more.

I started reading Todd's long post, but after a few lines I realised he was talking about the Thai script and not what we were talking about which was the Romanization of the Thai script according to the official system.

So I stopped reading.

What I will say is this, I don't have any belief that it is a great system, sure certain language courses designed to teach foreigners how to speak are far better, I used the Linguaphone system when I started and Tood quotes Paiboon.

I also stated that subject of the OP (RickThai?) as far as I am concerned can use what he likes, I understand what he is trying to say as to most of the people who want to drag with over the coals. I also stated that I have my own particular way of spelling things as does anyone else.

All I have stated is that there (whether Todd likes it or not) is an official system and what it's true purpose was when it was developed......

So Todd, I ain't wearing specs, I am in fact wearing contact lenses and I certainly do not drink Chang beer under any circumstances, iced or not. I'm sure there was some smarmy veiled insult in that reference but sadly I don't know what it is........

Sorry I was answering Dr Bob's post about final ending consonants with superscript yet silent vowels changing the tone..

I have noticed on this forum that topics can wind their way off the O/P's post with little or no restraint... I knew it'd be too much for most people to wade thru..

No harm no foul..

OFF TOPIC (but marginally of interest);
The whacky pronunciation versus spelling that English suffers from results from only one reason!

English speakers ain't afraid to "steal" (borrow) ANY word from ANY language if we think we have a use for it.

Thai is getting better at "stealing" words than they used to be. They're called "loan words" in Thai; ทับศัพท์. That means taking a word from another language and spelling it in Thai like; ซูชี sushi, การันตี guarantee, เก็ท get, เคลียร์ clear, ดริ๊งค์ drink, โคโยตี้ coyote (like the dancers), เพนท์ paint, เวิก work, เมคเซ้นส์ make sense, เมคเลิฟ make love, ออกัสซั่ม orgasm, ออรัลเซ็กส์ oral sex, ดิลโด้ dildo, ดูเร็กซ์ Durex, along with most words which are related to the IT field..

The powers that be (as in the dinosaurs who try to control which words officially are adopted into Thai) are pulling out their hair, because the thai kids of today are "borrowing" words as fast as they can. Forums where thais post in thai are over flowing with english words (spelled in thai)...

Thais are also famous for taking an English word (usually a word with two or more syllables); then cutting it down to just a single syllable.
แป๊ก back; the first syllable in "backfire"
เมนท์ ment; the last syllable in "comment"
เฟิร์ม firm; the last syllable in "confirm"
โอ oh; the first syllable in "okay"
โป๊ po; the first syllable in porn (racy, sexy, etc)
เอ็กซ์ X; the fist word in x-rated (xxx),

To me, it's quite interesting to hear English words creeping into the newscasts on Thai t/v. I heard มันไม่เวิก, มันไม่เมคเซ้นส์ which is "it doesn't work, it doesn't make sense" on this morning's news about something or other..

Anyway I know it was way OFF TOPIC, sorry.. pary on dudes

Oh BTW: I ain't picking on anyone in particular.. I'm an "equal opportunity disparager"... That's just how I roll...

Originally Posted by toddaniels

To me, it's quite interesting to hear English words creeping into the newscasts on Thai t/v.

Not a great shock seeing as up tp 25% of everyday Thai is derived from English.

Even as little as 9 years ago I almost NEVER heard English words spoken by thais who were speaking thai like I hear now. Except perhaps by that limited demographic of thai women who make their living in the seedier foreign patronized areas (by that I mean thai whores).

I dunno if I agree with "Marmite the Dog" and the statement that 25% of everyday thai is derived from English.. But there is a lot more english being mixed in with thai nowadays.

Still, the topic of the O/P was how to romanize the word ฝรั่ง or what I call "the F word"..

Personally, I go outta my way to never use it speaking thai when referring to myself or other foreigners. On rare occasions, I'll use บักสีดา (the Isaan word for guava) in jest. However, when I tell thais I speak thai with a foreign accent, I always use ชาวต่างชาติ/คนต่างชาติ, ชาวต่างประเทศ or informally มะกัน (what thais call americans)..

Write it in engrish however you wanna, and in fact go ahead and pronounce it with an L instead of an R if that's how your significant thai other does, I don't care and I'd wager neither will the thais.

For christ sakes; if you're gonna argue how it's spelled/pronounced in thai at least try to get your ducks in a row and quacking in time before you quote totally wrong facts about it's pronunciation like RickThai.

ซานตาคลอส <- Santa Claus

Originally Posted by toddaniels

Write it in engrish however you wanna, and in fact go ahead and pronounce it with an L instead of an R if that's how your significant thai other does, I don't care and I'd wager neither will the thais.

For christ sakes; if you're gonna argue how it's spelled/pronounced in thai at least try to get your ducks in a row and quacking in time before you quote totally wrong facts about it's pronunciation like RickThai.

Todd, you know a million times more thai than I, and so I am not really throwing my hat in the ring - except to say (!) the thread was not about whether the word has a r or an l sound, it was about the second vowel sound which for every other person in the world seems to be an "a" or a "u" sound, but for rickthai it is an "o" sound:

Originally Posted by RickThai

I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner. A few posters repeatedly whine about my “incorrect” transliteration, since “farang” is commonly used by many.

Although I have patiently explained numerous times, that I prefer “falong” because it sounds (to me anyway) much closer to how Thais generally pronounce the word,

You are correct "nidhogg"; the the R/L switch so common here was not a topic of this pronunciation debacle err debate.

I stand humbly erected ... errr humbly corrected...

Sorry about that.. . . .