Thread: Farming Good or Bad Idea?

Originally Posted by IsaanAussie

Thanks Toddaniels, I think? 555.
Your comment "..let 'em fend for themselves." is perhaps not my choice of words but the implication is correct. Take my own example. Before the wife and I moved here the family was growing rice on a total of about 40 rai, all channote land. For some years we had "helped" with fertiliser and harvest costs. Yet they were always "broke" and we never saw a baht or bag of rice. Since moving here we still have to put up the funds but now oversee the purchase and application of fertiliser. We do not fund the old daily "feast with your mates" during the harvest but pay a contractor to do it for us. But with no other real difference the harvest has doubled.
Obviously the details of what our money was spend on previously were changed. Fertiliser reduced, less rice produced and harvest cost increased. A good time was had by all and the rice bowl was full. Thai lifestyle.
Now its a business, I sell enough of the harvest immediately to recover all costs and profit. The rest we store for the family to "use". It is only possible to do if you are here and actively "stupervising".
If you are the absent funding source then do yourself a favour, hand over what you agree to and forget what it is used for. Once the cash changes hands, your part and participation in the deal is finished. You have helped.

AI as you and I have discussed, you can't farm remotely, it's boots on the ground.

Another thing overlooked often is a Thai girl is raised to believe she owes her parents a debt and that's a debt for life.

They gave her life, feed her and in some cases educated them, that means they owe. Any success in there future, they have to shsre, farang, Thai or just good job.
Culture is different, especially Issan and you just have to navigate through it or move back to the west.
Does my head in at times, but I'm a child of the Protestant work ethic, not of Buddha and live in the moment. Jim

Maybe you should investigate the possibility of doing in Thailand, what you do in Scotland? If you are contracting to the Off Shore Oil Industry ... check out if that is possible in Thailand, which also has an Offshore Oil Industry. Malaysia, Vietnam & Burma ... all are involved in Off Shore Oil Drilling. I am always amazed why successful home country Tradesman Builders, Carpenters, Auto & Diesel Mechanics ..etc., don't set up businesses they actually know. Most expat ferangs would rather deal with a ferang owned businesses, because they know the work will be done correctly. Farming is a tough business in any country. Four generations of my ancestors farmed on large scale in Canada. None made much money. They turned over a lot of money, but very little went into a bank account. The 5th generation abandoned farming for other pursuits and 75 first cousins are all pretty successful. After my Thai GF Farming Experience fell apart due to my running out of "spare" money, I now confine myself to golfing & snorkelling on alternate days around Pattaya for 4 months per year. I am much happier doing things I like doing.

My Thai BIL bought about 5 rai of land about 3 years ago. With a lot of hard work he was able to clear the land and fill it full of banana trees. He has tons of bananas now, but he doesn't make enough money to live off of. Fortunately he has a full-time job and will receive full pay when he retires (he's a Thai police officer).

Unless you and your wife plan on working extremely hard in all kinds of weather, you will probably have a rough time making a decent living. (If it is possible to grow enough crops on 5 rai to make a living.)

You probably know that any money you spend on land in Thailand is a total loss as far as you personally are concerned. You don't own it, and you can't sell it. It will belong to your wife and will be inherited by her Thai family.

I would be really careful before investing any money you don't mind losing.

I'm sure smarter guys then you have got taken by a pretty Thai lady's wish for "a better life".

Best of luck,

RickThai

"Investing money you don't mind losing..." This is not relevant in Thailand. You have either spent the money wisely or unwisely, but either way it is spent! Here the givens are you will not have your name of the title and in a dispute you will lose. Anyone who isn't aware of that going in should have done some more research first and a fool and his money have been parted.
I lost over half of my "safe" retirement funds in 2008 that were definitely in my name but in the hands of "experts". Nothing financial in todays world is rock solid safe, anywhere.

Andy, let's talk about this logically. Have you seen a lot of rich farmers in Thailand? I haven't and all the money is held by the Chinese because they know how to come into a country very quietly and exploit it.

Farming is hard work in any country and you said you are not afraid of hard work. Unless you are willing to do all the work yourself, you will find the productivity of the average Thai is directly related to their own needs. They do not need very much, so they do not work very hard. Take a look at the greater majority. They will work at a job, no matter what it is, until they have enough money to get them through and then they will quit. Few work hard day in and day out because it is not their way.

You would be much better off working in the UK and then spending as much time in Thailand as you can. If your wife does not mind going with you, then great. You will not get much help from her family if you are looking for money and you will be the bank of the family as long as you are willing to foot the bill.

I came back to the US because no Thai would give me the money to finish building my house. Even after offering to sell my Vigo or another building lot owned by my wife and paid for by me, these ideas were not accepted. For me to work is the only way to finish the house, so here I am. I do not expect my wife, or her family, to help me monetarily. You will need to figure out how to live and make money without their help.

A harsh reality, but this is the way it is in Thailand. If you are counting on hard, continuous work to make money farming, forget it. No Thai will work at the pace you want and you will find it is not easy to make enough money to live on. They can do it because they have been doing it for decades, but it will not be enough to maintain a western lifestyle.

If there is anyone on this site that has made a very good living from farming, please correct me if I am wrong and tell us all how to prosper in Thailand.

I can say from experience that it's very difficult to make money farming here.
For me it's been a barely break even experience. The main issue for me is the volatile commodity prices. I have oil palm and have seen the price fluctuate from 8 to 1.2 baht a kilo. At 6-8 baht a kilo there was a good cash flow. Now for the past couple years it's been staying closer to 3 baht a kilo, which is not putting very much money in my pocket.
I got other investments here so I'm not totally dependent on the farm, but it's nice to have it at least break even.
I'm continuing to diversify into other crops and commodities, and producing my own fertilizer. Actually producing the fertilizer is where I save a bunch. If I had to buy commercial fertilizer I'd be losing money.
The way the big farm operators make it is by buying chicken shit in large 6-12 month contracts from the big chicken farms. You need about 1000 rai to be doing that scale.

There are ways to make money off the land but it's a hands on affair, and you gotta ride your labor kinda hard to make it workable.

I invested back when land prices were still reasonable, the way things are now it's not really workable for a small operator unless you figure out some kind of niche market to fill.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Andy, let's talk about this logically. Have you seen a lot of rich farmers in Thailand? I haven't and all the money is held by the Chinese because they know how to come into a country very quietly and exploit it.

Farming is hard work in any country and you said you are not afraid of hard work. Unless you are willing to do all the work yourself, you will find the productivity of the average Thai is directly related to their own needs. They do not need very much, so they do not work very hard. Take a look at the greater majority. They will work at a job, no matter what it is, until they have enough money to get them through and then they will quit. Few work hard day in and day out because it is not their way.

You would be much better off working in the UK and then spending as much time in Thailand as you can. If your wife does not mind going with you, then great. You will not get much help from her family if you are looking for money and you will be the bank of the family as long as you are willing to foot the bill.

I came back to the US because no Thai would give me the money to finish building my house. Even after offering to sell my Vigo or another building lot owned by my wife and paid for by me, these ideas were not accepted. For me to work is the only way to finish the house, so here I am. I do not expect my wife, or her family, to help me monetarily. You will need to figure out how to live and make money without their help.

A harsh reality, but this is the way it is in Thailand. If you are counting on hard, continuous work to make money farming, forget it. No Thai will work at the pace you want and you will find it is not easy to make enough money to live on. They can do it because they have been doing it for decades, but it will not be enough to maintain a western lifestyle.

If there is anyone on this site that has made a very good living from farming, please correct me if I am wrong and tell us all how to prosper in Thailand.

A good living would depend on your previous life style, I make more expendable income here then I did in Australia.
By the time you take out housing costs, living costs, taxes etc, from your western wages, there's not much left, in my case there wasn't.

Like Mr Earl, I started when land was still cheap and took a long term approach, a big gamble that most will not be prepared to take.
On paper, at least we have made a lot of money from the land values alone, a reasonable steady income, minus rain etc from rubber.
I have no outside money, but have not had to do paid work for near on 4 years. When the world gets better we will earn more.
Could make more money, but can't get good workers or enough, that's my biggest problem.

Will say this, no ones coming to Thailand with a few million Baht, setting up a farm and earning a living, those days are long gone. If it wouldn't work, return wise in the west, it won't here.

If I was starting up again, I could never afford Thailand, it would have to be Lao or Burma, just the facts of life.

Have had friends wanting to come and set up, but they all have weird ideas about buying some land. The in laws will sweat in the hot sun, day in day out, while they lay on a beach with the money rolling in.

If the OP wants to try something here, look outside the square, find a need or what will be needed in the future and go for that.
Friend came over many years ago and asked what could he get into, that would see him live the good life here. Said buy some land [ my wife's name ] on the main street of our nearest town and put up a proper legal petrol/gas station. He laughed, there were hardly any cars then, today you can't find a parking spot.

There are opportunities out there, I see openings, but don't have the capital to invest. If anyone wants to take a punt and has money come see me, I have one thing that makes things cheaper and easier, a Limited partnership company and 10 rai of national industrial zoned land, factories certified. Jim

Have the same argument with the wife, she says it's just the Thai way and I live here and should act more like a Thai man.
I say OK, your brother, married one kid has a few G/Fs, the other brother, wife 2nd 2 kids is at the local bar girl short time bars, first opportunity, everyone knows, Thai way.
Say I will try to be more Thai and hang out with your brothers, not that Thai she says. Can't win, stranger in a strange land and all that.

On the investment front, out here lots of coconuts left to rot on the ground, not a big investment to start in machines. Charcoal the shells into bricks, 200 Baht a bag for charcoal out here. Cottage industry and would pay a return, but you can never get big unless you are legal, that's where the cost comes in. Jim

Don't know what happened above, 1/2 the post disappeared, anyway good post td.
Jim

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Andy, let's talk about this logically. Have you seen a lot of rich farmers in Thailand? I haven't and all the money is held by the Chinese because they know how to come into a country very quietly and exploit it.

Farming is hard work in any country and you said you are not afraid of hard work. Unless you are willing to do all the work yourself, you will find the productivity of the average Thai is directly related to their own needs. They do not need very much, so they do not work very hard. Take a look at the greater majority. They will work at a job, no matter what it is, until they have enough money to get them through and then they will quit. Few work hard day in and day out because it is not their way.

You would be much better off working in the UK and then spending as much time in Thailand as you can. If your wife does not mind going with you, then great. You will not get much help from her family if you are looking for money and you will be the bank of the family as long as you are willing to foot the bill.

I came back to the US because no Thai would give me the money to finish building my house. Even after offering to sell my Vigo or another building lot owned by my wife and paid for by me, these ideas were not accepted. For me to work is the only way to finish the house, so here I am. I do not expect my wife, or her family, to help me monetarily. You will need to figure out how to live and make money without their help.

A harsh reality, but this is the way it is in Thailand. If you are counting on hard, continuous work to make money farming, forget it. No Thai will work at the pace you want and you will find it is not easy to make enough money to live on. They can do it because they have been doing it for decades, but it will not be enough to maintain a western lifestyle.

If there is anyone on this site that has made a very good living from farming, please correct me if I am wrong and tell us all how to prosper in Thailand.

A bit broadly generalised, Rick..
But being comfortable from farming [in Thailand] can be done.

Hard work, plenty of land, and most important a very marketable agricultural/horticultural product.

Explore and experience....I know numerous folks [Thai, Farang, Chinese, etc] that are extremely successful through farming practices. Hard, but honest living.

OP,

Lot's of good advice and experience on this thread.

Again good luck.

RickThai

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I can say from experience that it's very difficult to make money farming here.
For me it's been a barely break even experience. The main issue for me is the volatile commodity prices. I have oil palm and have seen the price fluctuate from 8 to 1.2 baht a kilo. At 6-8 baht a kilo there was a good cash flow. Now for the past couple years it's been staying closer to 3 baht a kilo, which is not putting very much money in my pocket.
I got other investments here so I'm not totally dependent on the farm, but it's nice to have it at least break even.
I'm continuing to diversify into other crops and commodities, and producing my own fertilizer. Actually producing the fertilizer is where I save a bunch. If I had to buy commercial fertilizer I'd be losing money.
The way the big farm operators make it is by buying chicken shit in large 6-12 month contracts from the big chicken farms. You need about 1000 rai to be doing that scale.

There are ways to make money off the land but it's a hands on affair, and you gotta ride your labor kinda hard to make it workable.

I invested back when land prices were still reasonable, the way things are now it's not really workable for a small operator unless you figure out some kind of niche market to fill.

I believe Earl's approach is correct, diversify. Not necessarily into many different things, but more importantly into things that relate and contribute to reducing costs. It is the purchased costs that kill off the return. Making fertiliser instead of buying it. Composting wastes. The real money in farming is in producing the inputs not the outputs. These are must haves and are not reliant on commodity prices or weather conditions, or labour. Without them you just don't start.
So first rule for me is to minimise external costs.
Most posters have the same labour issue. Work until the rice bowl is full, then hammock time. The best I have ever had stayed useful for a year then fell into the whiskey vat. It isn't the large occasional project that is hard, you can get a team together for a week (when money is tight) if you get the timing right. It is the skilled or careful guy that is few and far between. I have two or three people that are key for me. I use them infrequently and pay well.
Watch the Thais in the village, it is all a matter of face. Even the poorest will not work on his own house if his is paying others to do it. But they use people with skills to do the job or they just accept what they get or can afford. Being there to observe is critical but don't criticise, plan ahead, sketches and aides. Or do it yourself if it is important. But cop the result "sweet"!
The Thai word "Chang" has two meanings, one is elephant the other engineer. The two have one thing in common, they never forget! So to rewrite an old saying "Get mad and you'll never get even!"

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Andy, let's talk about this logically. Have you seen a lot of rich farmers in Thailand? I haven't and all the money is held by the Chinese because they know how to come into a country very quietly and exploit it.

Farming is hard work in any country and you said you are not afraid of hard work. Unless you are willing to do all the work yourself, you will find the productivity of the average Thai is directly related to their own needs. They do not need very much, so they do not work very hard. Take a look at the greater majority. They will work at a job, no matter what it is, until they have enough money to get them through and then they will quit. Few work hard day in and day out because it is not their way.

You would be much better off working in the UK and then spending as much time in Thailand as you can. If your wife does not mind going with you, then great. You will not get much help from her family if you are looking for money and you will be the bank of the family as long as you are willing to foot the bill.

I came back to the US because no Thai would give me the money to finish building my house. Even after offering to sell my Vigo or another building lot owned by my wife and paid for by me, these ideas were not accepted. For me to work is the only way to finish the house, so here I am. I do not expect my wife, or her family, to help me monetarily. You will need to figure out how to live and make money without their help.

A harsh reality, but this is the way it is in Thailand. If you are counting on hard, continuous work to make money farming, forget it. No Thai will work at the pace you want and you will find it is not easy to make enough money to live on. They can do it because they have been doing it for decades, but it will not be enough to maintain a western lifestyle.

If there is anyone on this site that has made a very good living from farming, please correct me if I am wrong and tell us all how to prosper in Thailand.

A bit broadly generalised, Rick..
But being comfortable from farming [in Thailand] can be done.

Hard work, plenty of land, and most important a very marketable agricultural/horticultural product.

Explore and experience....I know numerous folks [Thai, Farang, Chinese, etc] that are extremely successful through farming practices. Hard, but honest living.

Too generalized SR. Be a little more specific on how to be "comfortabe" from farming. A business plan would really be helpful here if you think it is easy to be successful in Thailand. Please share.

I have some family who grow sugarcane and make a good living out of it. It is hard work but thats being a farmer. Even a western lifestyle is possible for them.

Do you know Chokchai steakhouse? That guy is very rich from breeding cows and selling steaks and yoghurts.

Not to pick nits there; especially with you "IsaanAussie", but. . .

The Thai word you spelled as "chang" doesn't have two meanings.
It's two words, spelled and pronounced completely different;
ช้าง (elephant)
ช่าง (engineer)

OFF TOPIC; What is it with these people and animal names for their beer? Elephant, Tiger, Leopard, Lion??

Back ON TOPIC;
I will agree that finding reliable labor seems to be the linchpin in a lot of endeavors here. I was lucky enough to hook up with some really talented Thai craftsmen; wood workers, tilers, electricians, plasterers, painters, etc. They all work in the Engineering department for a 5 star hotel chain, so they know what work done to an international standard is like. Unfortunately because they work full time at their "real job" for the hotel, they don't have a lotta time to "moon-lite" on other renovation projects I find for them.

Still on the ones we've done; the quality was first rate, the projects came in on budget and more importantly, (especially for a foreign clientele) on time.

I also got them to charge and get, real money for their work. I taught them the English adage, "Good work is not cheap.. Cheap work is not good" in Thai (งานดี; มันไม่ถูก.. งานถูด; มันไม่ดี). It's funny back in the day in the US, you'd charge twice the materials as labor costs; $100 in materials = $200 in labor. Here I found it was the exact opposite, 100 labor = 200 in materials. I got the guys to start bidding the jobs with labor equal to materials and they were as over the moon with it as their customers were with the quality of the work. People will pay more if the work is high quality. There's so many foreigners who dumb themselves down to accepting Thai quality work that they think there's nothing else out there.

I've tried to find other semi skilled Thais who'd put in a fair days work for fair pay, but they always wash out after about a week or so. It's disheartening, especially when I had to go in and paint the entire inside of house because the worker crapped out on me. I thought the Thai who owned the house was gonna fall over in a dead faint when he came in and saw me painting. He took pictures to show his friends that the interior of his house was painted by a 'white guy'!

If I had just 4 or 5 guys who'd show up on time, I could keep them busy 24/7 with little bullshit repairs, renovation jobs which get kicked my way, but I can't source any reliable half skilled workers..

Sad really, there's work out there, and good money to be made too, IF you can find the people...

Sorry "RuralSurin" I'd hafta weigh in on the side of other posters in that that I've NEVER seen a rich Thai farmer. I've seen a LOT who manage to "get by", most who carry more debt than they can afford and a whole boat load who do nothing but put on a "show" that they're better off than they really are. A Thai being "comfortable" here is a far cry from a foreigner being comfortable here.

There certainly are exceptions and Chokchai Bulakul is one. He got where he is because he wasn't afraid of hard work. Oh, he also built MBK mall back in the day before becoming a "cowboy".

TD, I do agree with what you said about keeping good craftsmen busy in Thailand. The reason is that there are so few of them around. You are definitely lucky if you put together 5 good workers and am sure you could be a very successful contractor given those circumstances.

I am one of those who did have to "dumb down" things to get my house built. We all have seen very nice western homes, but to expect that to be built in Thailand is beyond reality. You have to work within people's capabilities and understandings. This is why so many westerners become frustrated at the larger building companies. They want western quality but only have Thai labor available. You could teach it, but nobody seems to be interested in learning.

As a result, you need to know the limitations and work within that framework.

Damn, my attempt at humour with loose use of Thai is discovered.
TD my experience with labour in Bangkok is exactly the same. I was living in WangSawan near the Mai Sois, it was great, just ride the push bike down and come back with all the teak I needed. I was building a room full of solid teak furniture for a Japanese businessman. There was a lot to do and the finishing with teak oil took forever. Got one of the BIL's (expert painter) to come over to help. Spent the first week getting him to slow down and do things properly and then redoing most of it myself. A week or so later, now delivery date looming fast, he just went missing, gone. So a battle alone against the clock but finally got it done. The BIL turned up the evening I finished and wanted his pay for missing weeks. Got exactly what he had coming, bugger all.
I was charging that stuff out at materials times 3, for interest. Could easily have made a business out of that except for the labour issue.

Why would we do this! Would we do this to the wife in the west?
Is this the easy way out!! to have no heart.

Just read this tread and here is my 5 cents. My wife and I took over a Durian farm down south and added sprinkler system and dug ponds to supply water. The first year we broke a little bit above even paying for improvements and paying wages with enough to cover sprays fertilizer for the next year. Last year we were able to buy a new pickup and pay all bills. But and that is the big but we had 55 rai to start with and had the cash to improve the farm. This year we will make a nice bit but are buying more land and going to plant it but as stated labour is king we pay two workers 20% gross and they look after everything the harder they work the more we all make. So farming is not all bad news or maybe I have been lucky .

GreatThread,,, awesome to read the years of experience shown in a gentlemen's manner from all.
I was a beef farmer in Canada and now live the executive office life in UAE and soon look to have a rural life in Isaan,,,, not looking to make huge profits from farming,,, but to grow/raise several variants of produce, stock, chicken and fish for own consumption and any possible side line sales with a small shop mart that also sales some whiskey, beer, smokes and common household items.
Very interesting topic was the lending of money anyone familiar with this Thai money lending termed as "shares" ?

The key point i take from all posts is to diversify, reduce operating costs by recycling and above all enjoy your new life in Thailand!

GreatThread,,, awesome to read the years of experience shown in a gentlemen's manner from all.

I was a beef/sheep farmer in Canada and now live the executive office life in UAE and soon look to have a rural life in Isaan,,,, not looking to make huge profits from farming,,, but to grow/raise several variants of produce, stock, chicken and fish for own consumption and any possible side line sales with a small shop mart that also sales some whiskey, beer, smokes and common household items.

The key point i take from all posts is to diversify, reduce operating costs by recycling and above all enjoy your new life in Thailand!

Chok Dee Kup

Originally Posted by blowin

Just read this tread and here is my 5 cents. My wife and I took over a Durian farm down south and added sprinkler system and dug ponds to supply water. The first year we broke a little bit above even paying for improvements and paying wages with enough to cover sprays fertilizer for the next year. Last year we were able to buy a new pickup and pay all bills. But and that is the big but we had 55 rai to start with and had the cash to improve the farm. This year we will make a nice bit but are buying more land and going to plant it but as stated labour is king we pay two workers 20% gross and they look after everything the harder they work the more we all make. So farming is not all bad news or maybe I have been lucky .

Since I wrote optimistic comments last time now I am not as positive. We had a horridness start to the year due to drought. We lost trees fruit and the price dropped anywhere else the price would rise ( supply and demand) but here it droops. The other thing is the price is fixed by the big buyers who control all the pickers and transport so you have no control. My master plan was to move to Thailand full time this year but that has been shelved. So it is time to dust my self off and start again and hope next year is better. But we have trees that are over 10 years old and have 55 rai with a high value crop so don't believe that you put all your eggs in the one basket and live happy ever after it might not work..

^
Now you are starting to get the idea of things here in Thailand.