Rubber trees 101

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Originally Posted by Moolek

From one of Jim's recent posts I see him quoting 3-5 kg dry/year/tree for local Thai farmers in his area. I am trying to figure out what that translates into as far as baht per tree goes if you are doing lump.

I see the figures quoted in the low 30's baht/kg for cup rubber but I don't know what the typical water content of the cup rubber is. If it is only low 30's baht/kg adjusted back to dry weight then we are gonna be making less than I hoped.

We planted about 2200 RRIM600 trees about 3 years ago. We have had about 300 die post planting most of which have been replanted. This is the last year I will bother to replant and I think we will have to do about 80 to fill everything out. Most of the replants are RRIM3001's. By the time we get to cutting them I am hoping that at least 2000 of the trees are good producers. We have taken good care of the trees though a few have slightly low branches (2.5m), from when we were away for a year and had other look after the trees. The trees are on 2 separate plots of land, one plot of land is slightly higher than the other and the trees are doing a bit better on this plot than the other but both plots are looking very good when I compare them to our neighbors. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get at least an average production though I know I can expect low production for the first couple of years.

So if any of the experts out there would be so kind, I would like them to take a look at my numbers and tell me if I am off the wall with my annual revenue estimates.

2000 producing trees * 5kg/tree/year * 35 baht/kg(cup lump) / 70% water content

By my math that comes out to 500,000 baht per year gross.

If I am wrong about how the water content works then it would be only 350,000 baht per year gross.

Doesn't seem like a very good return but my biggest concern is finding the workers.

If you figure I need 3 guys to do 2000 trees then they will only be making 46,000 per year, (350,000*40%/3). That's only 4,600 per month per worker if you figure 10 months per year.

Does any of this make sense or am I completely of my nut with my numbers?

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If you ain't off your nut now mate..trying to get a handle on probables re rubber yield and profit will send you there. IMO it ends up being "suck it and see"..best way then no dissappointments and maybe some pleasant surprises.As they say if you must plan "plan for the worst and hope for the best". Good luck D

Last season's figures. RIMM 600 trees, 10 years old, 3rd season tapping, 2350 trees; total of 15,711 kgs cup (kee yang), total money in; 596,619 baht, 3 tappers earned 203,271 baht, season sales 9/5/13 - 29/1/14. Highest price at auction was 46.85 baht per kg in May, lowest was 31.30 in Dec.
Hope this helps.
By the way, the previous season, total kg was 12,584, but only 2 tappers earned only 10k less money over the year, due to much higher average prices.

That's 6.68 kgs per tree (3rd tapping season). First season of tapping, 2100 trees, exceptionally wet rainy season, a mere total of 6926 kgs, an average of 3.29 kg per tree.
We are opening another 2000 odd this October, which should bring our total tapping trees to approx 4500. But yeah, tappers and owners are not a happy bunch of bunnies, when the price is below 40 baht per kg. Sheet a waste of time at the moment, unless you can store for a LONG time and HOPE prices go up.

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Originally Posted by Moolek

From one of Jim's recent posts I see him quoting 3-5 kg dry/year/tree for local Thai farmers in his area. I am trying to figure out what that translates into as far as baht per tree goes if you are doing lump.

I see the figures quoted in the low 30's baht/kg for cup rubber but I don't know what the typical water content of the cup rubber is. If it is only low 30's baht/kg adjusted back to dry weight then we are gonna be making less than I hoped.

We planted about 2200 RRIM600 trees about 3 years ago. We have had about 300 die post planting most of which have been replanted. This is the last year I will bother to replant and I think we will have to do about 80 to fill everything out. Most of the replants are RRIM3001's. By the time we get to cutting them I am hoping that at least 2000 of the trees are good producers. We have taken good care of the trees though a few have slightly low branches (2.5m), from when we were away for a year and had other look after the trees. The trees are on 2 separate plots of land, one plot of land is slightly higher than the other and the trees are doing a bit better on this plot than the other but both plots are looking very good when I compare them to our neighbors. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get at least an average production though I know I can expect low production for the first couple of years.

So if any of the experts out there would be so kind, I would like them to take a look at my numbers and tell me if I am off the wall with my annual revenue estimates.

2000 producing trees * 5kg/tree/year * 35 baht/kg(cup lump) / 70% water content

By my math that comes out to 500,000 baht per year gross.

If I am wrong about how the water content works then it would be only 350,000 baht per year gross.

Doesn't seem like a very good return but my biggest concern is finding the workers.

If you figure I need 3 guys to do 2000 trees then they will only be making 46,000 per year, (350,000*40%/3). That's only 4,600 per month per worker if you figure 10 months per year.

Does any of this make sense or am I completely of my nut with my numbers?

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Lets see if we can ort it out.
Latex, liquid about 30 plus % dry rubber content.

Wet cup, depends how wet, but after 4 taps, 2 on 1 off, say 80% dry rubber content.

Money, up and down, if you do RSS and get 5 kilos of dry rubber per tree per year, today, about $10 US per tree.

Cup, dry or wet about $6 per tree.

That's on paper, reality, you won't get 2000 good producing trees from 2200 trees, no 2 clones will produce the same, tapper skill, rain fall and tree condition will make big differences.

So you really won't know how much rubber until you start tapping.
Think that 3 kilos per tree is the Thai average, not a good indicator, new trees, old tree, good tree and poor trees.

Hope that's some help, by the way where are you. Jim

Jim is correct, we have some big trees that fill a cup in a fortnight, and we have medium trees that fill 3 cups in a fortnight. No two trees will produce the exact same amount. You have to average out the total yield over the whole season divide by the trees you tap. Severe rainy seasons (like 3 years ago) will have a big impact on the year's output too.

Thanks guys that was just the kind of info I was looking for.

Also note, in my experience, 7 x 3m ie 76 trees per rai produce more latex than 85-90 trees per rai done in a 6 x 3 or similar pattern.

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Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Also note, in my experience, 7 x 3m ie 76 trees per rai produce more latex than 85-90 trees per rai done in a 6 x 3 or similar pattern.

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Agree, canopy space is key, Thais, just think more is better.
We have people planting double rows, tree, meter space, next tree, then 6 meter space, then another double row.
Motto, never listen to the locals. Jim

Thanks for all this info.

Do you religiously stick to the 2 days tapping, one day rest, schedule except may be in the 2 months when the trees shed their leaves?

What about in the main rainy season?

Can you suggest a good tree spacing, 7 x 3m, or would you recommend different.

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Originally Posted by OhOh

Thanks for all this info.

Do you religiously stick to the 2 days tapping, one day rest, schedule except may be in the 2 months when the trees shed their leaves?

What about in the main rainy season?

Can you suggest a good tree spacing, 7 x 3m, or would you recommend different.

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First page of the thread, most of the answers are there.

Think very hard before investing money and don't believe what in laws tell you.
Doing rubber is not easy or cheap. Jim

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

Think very hard before investing money and don't believe what in laws tell you.

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Thanks I have no intention of "investing" in rubber.

I ask as my in-laws seem very haphazard in their tapping schedule. Even allowing for the "this is Thailand" spiel there seems to be a hundred and one reasons offered of which none, to me, are logical.

I see from your post on the first page that one should get a feel for the trees "capacity" and adjust accordingly. I see from the tapping schedule here a totally haphazard approach. Intermittent tapping, various aged trees tapped and leaving the plantation for a week or so with no tapping at all.

I am just trying to get my head around it. They wouldn't listen to my opinion anyway, I am just a bemused bystander.:)

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Originally Posted by OhOh

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

Think very hard before investing money and don't believe what in laws tell you.

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Thanks I have no intention of "investing" in rubber.

I ask as my in-laws seem very haphazard in their tapping schedule. Even allowing for the "this is Thailand" spiel there seems to be a hundred and one reasons offered of which none, to me, are logical.

I see from your post on the first page that one should get a feel for the trees "capacity" and adjust accordingly. I see from the tapping schedule here a totally haphazard approach. Intermittent tapping, various aged trees tapped and leaving the plantation for a week or so with no tapping at all.

I am just trying to get my head around it. They wouldn't listen to my opinion anyway, I am just a bemused bystander.:)

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General rule, rural Thais only work when they need money, car payments, etc.
My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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May be you should offer:
- payment for the work
- after the work is done a fishing/hunting trip ending with a lot of booze and a days sleep afterwards

:mid:

Just catch them in what they like...

Bye,
Derk

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Originally Posted by Derk

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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May be you should offer:
- payment for the work
- after the work is done a fishing/hunting trip ending with a lot of booze and a days sleep afterwards

:mid:

Just catch them in what they like...

Bye,
Derk

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Obviously you have not lived in Issan long ,or if you have with the greatest of respect you must be walking round with a pair of electric welding goggles permanently covering your eyes , Jim Collister knows the score about this neck of the woods as good as any and better than most ,and many who live here know it too :)

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Originally Posted by piwanoi

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Originally Posted by Derk

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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May be you should offer:
- payment for the work
- after the work is done a fishing/hunting trip ending with a lot of booze and a days sleep afterwards

:mid:

Just catch them in what they like...

Bye,
Derk

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Obviously you have not lived in Issan long ,or if you have with the greatest of respect you must be walking round with a pair of electric welding goggles permanently covering your eyes , Jim Collister knows the score about this neck of the woods as good as any and better than most ,and many who live here know it too :)

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Yep...couldn't agree more.;)

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Originally Posted by Derk

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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May be you should offer:
- payment for the work
- after the work is done a fishing/hunting trip ending with a lot of booze and a days sleep afterwards

:mid:

Just catch them in what they like...

Bye,
Derk

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If it was a day fishing, boozing or sleeping, would be OK, but weeks or months sometimes, different story.
Have had tappers say, why should I tap 2 on 1 off, make enough on 1 on 2 off.
Have 2 new tappers starting this week from Trang, have family up here.
A different world out here in the badlands. Jim

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

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Originally Posted by piwanoi

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Originally Posted by Derk

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

My biggest problem is labor, I've been out sweating my guts out planting cassava for the last week, by myself. Can't hire anyone, too hard, too hot, family won't even help. Fishing, hunting and sleeping is all that counts, no tomorrows, just today's, full rice bowl, why work. Jim

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May be you should offer:
- payment for the work
- after the work is done a fishing/hunting trip ending with a lot of booze and a days sleep afterwards

:mid:

Just catch them in what they like...

Bye,
Derk

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Obviously you have not lived in Issan long ,or if you have with the greatest of respect you must be walking round with a pair of electric welding goggles permanently covering your eyes , Jim Collister knows the score about this neck of the woods as good as any and better than most ,and many who live here know it too :)

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Yep...couldn't agree more.;)

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Of course needless to say RS I put you in the same category as Jim as far as "spelling it out", however "uncomfortable" it may be at times, and reading your past posts of life here in Issan I have held this opinion for quite some time :)

No leaf on the tree, stop cutting. Approx 8-10 week period before retapping, depending on the age of the tree, and allowing for the new leaf to turn a full dark green, then waiting another 2-3 weeks. Hence on average a 9-10 month season. 1/3 circumference, 2 days on, 1 day off. 1/2 circumference 1 day on, 1 day off. Done this way, by the time you get round to tapping the original panel (say 7-9 years), the bark has healed up nicely and is ready to go again. Unless you have animals for tappers. 3 on, 1 off not good. Rainy season - tap when you can, sometimes a daytime cut is neccessary, if you've had 3-4 nights rain. Trees like to be in synch and get used to being tapped in a "routine". They don't like going out of routine. Your in-laws; if it's their trees and land fair enough, they can do what they like. If they were working for me on my trees, they would not last a week.

Kinda sad reading this bad news for you rubber farmers ,I have always and always will admire people who work to make a living and not only secure their own futures but others around them too, as there is always a spin off from success's of any kind , lets just hope that this slump in World demand will not last too long , I am sure all who read this, farmer or not will concur Rubber futures slump to five-year low | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

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Originally Posted by piwanoi

Kinda sad reading this bad news for you rubber farmers ,I have always and always will admire people who work to make a living and not only secure their own futures but others around them too, as there is always a spin off from success's of any kind , lets just hope that this slump in World demand will not last too long , I am sure all who read this, farmer or not will concur Rubber futures slump to five-year low | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

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Like any farming, there are good times and bad, think farangs get into rubber or other things as a life style change.

Would think there are more Samui swingers and Pattaya fliers than farming farangs committing suicide.

No millionaires out my way, just farangs looking for freedom. Jim

^^^ Thank you for your informative reply.

Just a short post, got 40,000 Baht rubber subsidy yesterday, not sure how it was worked out, but it' in the bank.
There will be beer, and a 51 inch TV. Jim

Just wait until the oil price spikes. You will be quids in.

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

Just a short post, got 40,000 Baht rubber subsidy yesterday, not sure how it was worked out, but it' in the bank.
There will be beer, and a 51 inch TV. Jim

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should it not have been 65?...guess not worth asking anyone what happened to the rest though...lol gift horse and all that? Still waiting here.

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Originally Posted by crepitas

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

Just a short post, got 40,000 Baht rubber subsidy yesterday, not sure how it was worked out, but it' in the bank.
There will be beer, and a 51 inch TV. Jim

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should it not have been 65?...guess not worth asking anyone what happened to the rest though...lol gift horse and all that? Still waiting here.

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Don't know how much we should have got, been some dodgy doings and we may get more money.
Know we got 2 extra bank accounts in BILs, wives maiden names, deals were being done, need to know and I'm a farang, less I know the better according to the Thais. Jim