Thread: Crown Land use, Sor Por Kor discussion

Jim when my dear wife passed away 16 Mar 2003 after 42 years of a happy marriage I Inherited everything, Money ,Property ,vehicles , the whole monty, Leaving me quite wealthy ,the estate was not contested by my Wifes brothers or my kids some how I do not believe I would get the same deal here Married to a Thai under similar circumstances

Piwanoi can't comment on your case but it's common here that the youngest daughter (usually) looks after the parents in their old age. In return she inherits all, as per the Thai way, and no claim is made by the other sibblings.

Originally Posted by piwanoi

the way I see it, and of course I could be way off the mark here but legally whatever the circumstances the "precious " land always belongs to a Thai ,whether its your wife or whatever ,so if the partnership goes tits up, it could be somewhat embarrassing and expensive for "the alien" involved

Are you talking from direct experience?

Originally Posted by Neverna

Originally Posted by piwanoi

the way I see it, and of course I could be way off the mark here but legally whatever the circumstances the "precious " land always belongs to a Thai ,whether its your wife or whatever ,so if the partnership goes tits up, it could be somewhat embarrassing and expensive for "the alien" involved

Are you talking from direct experience?

Nah not land wise, but I did get shafted for about a million plus by my ex , 5 years ago, it was a waste of Time and money taking it to Court as the Casino in Chong Chom had cleaned her out ,but there is quite a lot of Farangs in this area ,two in particular a German and a Norwegian have lost big time, the Norwegian if what I hear is correct has done 16 million baht in .

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Jim when my dear wife passed away 16 Mar 2003 after 42 years of a happy marriage I Inherited everything, Money ,Property ,vehicles , the whole monty, Leaving me quite wealthy ,the estate was not contested by my Wifes brothers or my kids some how I do not believe I would get the same deal here Married to a Thai under similar circumstances

Long time married and a great lose after that many years.
Yes, you would not get the same deal here, as an alien, kids [Thai] would get the land, one would hope that the kids would be happy to allow there father to live on as things were.
Know of a few farangs who's wives passed before them, none were taken for the land, house, even when the kids they raised were not of their blood.
Family law does not discriminate between Thais and aliens, just that aliens can't own land, kids can.
If your kids want to rip you off, you haven't been a good dad. Jim

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Piwanoi can't comment on your case but it's common here that the youngest daughter (usually) looks after the parents in their old age. In return she inherits all, as per the Thai way, and no claim is made by the other sibblings.

I hope you are right ,but the feed back I'm getting from Jans family is that when Jans old lady pops her clogs its going to be the start of world war 3 !,I 've told her fuck them let them have the land its only about 15 rai anyway and not worth getting upset for ,I've banned her 2 sisters from our house cos all they did was argue and take whatever took their fancy out of the fridge whilst I was out on my mountain bike, thieving kunts

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

One way to trade SPK land at the land office and have the name changed is by saying the seller is the uncle/aunt of the buyer, he/she being present at the land office and confirming this. This will only happen on SPK land that has checked with bounderies and sat long/lat confirmation. Worked for my missus. She pays an annual land tax on all her land, all of which is SPK, and apparently, this will also help in eventually upgrading paperwork. Allegedly.

Don't know about that one, ask your wife, do they change the name on the title, or put a rider on the back stating the land goes to this relative upon death of owner.

Same goes for chanote title less than 10 years old, no name change allowed, you can not borrow against it, as banks can not put a lean on it. You can sell it by informing the land office on a special form, no tax or transfer fees paid. At the 10 year mark, new owner can have the title changed and pay the taxes.

As posted, when the charnote guys did the 2248 road, any dispute over who owns what and no new title was issued, people were told to take their claim to the land tribunal for a judgement.

It's not the locals you need to worry about, but the guys on computers in BKK, from what I heard the 10 year rule seemed to apply mostly.

Will see what happens when they get out my way, whole villages could be in the national park. Jim

hmmm..seems to me that land title laws are interpreted the same way visa rules at consulates ie autonomously.
SIL changed 3yo Chanote to her sisters name recently.. 2000bt fee..maybe family is different.
Not sure that even the lawyers have a complete grasp:
Land Deeds Ownership and Possession
Title Deeds in Thailand | Siam Legal International

Originally Posted by crepitas

hmmm..seems to me that land title laws are interpreted the same way visa rules at consulates ie autonomously.

That is why anyone who wants to build a house builds it on 'Chanote' titled land. There's no interpretation of that title. It's all singing and dancing.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Originally Posted by crepitas

hmmm..seems to me that land title laws are interpreted the same way visa rules at consulates ie autonomously.

That is why anyone who wants to build a house builds it on 'Chanote' titled land. There's no interpretation of that title. It's all singing and dancing.

Cannot find anything in any land titles gumph about building just occupying..so where does all this stuff about building come from..given that everyone Thais and farangs talk about it...some other set of regs?
Was told after occupying our house for about two years that the head man should have been consulted before building...few beers and he went away smiling..think our land is SB2 found a survey pin once......used to pay about a buck or two a year for taxes but last time wife went to pay about three years ago they told her did not have to pay anymore..confirmed by all neighbours...go figure.

Not worth getting an ulcer over..all rural farm land round here same title as wife's with houses etc built..villagers and head been saying for years "Chanote come soon...."...probably when the blacktop that has been creeping towards our land arrives??

Anyone of you old stagers remember the big kerfuffle a few years back under YS:

Possibility of land purchased with farang money will be investigated and if proven seized by goverment...??

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

To own it it needs to be 'Chanote'. As Jim indicated, in having 'Crown Land' it carries no security and can be taken back by the 'Crown' as and when they choose. That's m

My land was #3 and now is Chanote. Easy as pie. I dare say if you have so called "crown land," you can go anytime to the land office and if clearly your families title, application for change to chanote can be made and applied on request, not some myth about when and if...as noted here.

Follow the yellow brick road to the land office and do it. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do know there are vast differences in applications for titles and whats being spewed here is not completely accurate of applicable to all situations.

Seizure of Crown land is rare outside national parks. Land transferred in Jims case from Grandfather to grand daughter seems implausable as seized by military legally. I assume no formal protest was lodged? Left without working would be the main issue for ability to seize, nothing more.

95% of agricultural land, and land outside of the towns and villages in Isaan is NOT Chanote, or NS3. Indeed, some larger market towns will have Chanote on one side of the main drag, NS3 or less on the other. Go figure. It will never happen that this "crown" land will be taken back from areas in the boondocks that have no commercial benefit to large monied companies ie factories etc. There would be anarchy, and more importantly, rebellion. The "crown" know this, as well as all recent governments. Eventually, (hopefully in my lifetime), the land paperwork mess of a system will get sorted. If you go into an SPK office these days, everything is slowly getting sat navved, updated and they are on the case.

Originally Posted by ltnt

I do know there are vast differences in applications for titles and whats being spewed here is not completely accurate of applicable to all situations.

Well go ahead and say what isn't accurate.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

To own it it needs to be 'Chanote'. As Jim indicated, in having 'Crown Land' it carries no security and can be taken back by the 'Crown' as and when they choose. That's m

My land was #3 and now is Chanote. Easy as pie. I dare say if you have so called "crown land," you can go anytime to the land office and if clearly your families title, application for change to chanote can be made and applied on request, not some myth about when and if...as noted here.

Follow the yellow brick road to the land office and do it. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do know there are vast differences in applications for titles and whats being spewed here is not completely accurate of applicable to all situations.

Seizure of Crown land is rare outside national parks. Land transferred in Jims case from Grandfather to grand daughter seems implausable as seized by military legally. I assume no formal protest was lodged? Left without working would be the main issue for ability to seize, nothing more.

I think up here (Udon) it is currently easier and less hassle to get "no title" paperwork put into Chanote, than SPK. Slow process though, inc showing paying the annual pitiful agri tax on that parcel for 10 years. I know, 'cos the missus is on the case. A slow process, but it can be done, but one needs to keep on top of 'em.

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Go figure.

Why do I have to go figure? I live in a small(?) village in Buriram and there seems to be a fair bit of Chanote title land about. The land we live on is Chanote and I wouldn't have it any other way. Land repossesion happens everywhere. Don't believe it's a 'National Parks' thing.

If you are buying property in Isaan then be very careful when dealing with Title Deeds in Thailand. The title-deed system in Thailand is not the same as in your home country and hence it is best to speak to a lawyer first when dealing in property. The Thai government create certain types of title deeds for the rural poor so in Isaan you are likely to come across some of these title deeds.
The main title-deed much like you would have at home would be called a Chanote title-deed also called the Nor Sor 4. This is a full title-deed and this is what you would buy into. The other title deeds such as the Nor Sor 3 Gor is not a full title deed but can be upgraded if you apply to the Land Department for an upgrade of this title deed. This application process can be done and the title upgraded if nobody objects to the upgrade, so there is some risk in the process.
The other title-deed is the Nor Sor 3 which the government has as yet not measured the land so the boundaries not really known. This title deed can be upgraded to a Nor Sor 3 Gor and then to a full Chanote however as the Nor Sor 3 Gor there are risks. This title deed as stated has not had its boundaries set as yet and the land could be smaller than what you think. Be very careful!
The other title deeds that the government does issue especially in Isaan are title deeds that cannot be owned. They are deeds which only give the user possession but not ownership. Most times this land belongs to the government and cannot be sold or built on. Normally the government only allows someone to build a small house on this type of land.

Title Deeds in Thailand | Udon Lawyers in Thailand

CHANOTE: from the land title documents issued by the Thailand Land Department only the Nor. Sor. 4 Jor or Chanote is a true land ownership title deed.

Thailand government issued land ownership title deeds and documents

The rest don't prove ownership, they only show a right to farm, as I've said earlier.

^Yes, however if you proceed as others here have stated, you can secure title.

As for land grabs by the government I've not seen any up here. Only those reported by the Thai Media as their paid for entertainment propaganda news shows.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Yes, however if you proceed as others here have stated, you can secure title.

May be in 20+ years. Go back and see how long Jim reckons it'll be before his wife gets the full title. Until then Jim, and many others, live with the not knowing if the land is fully theirs.

CHANOTE: from the land title documents issued by the Thailand Land Department only the Nor. Sor. 4 Jor or Chanote is a true land ownership title deed

Originally Posted by ltnt

As for land grabs by the government I've not seen any up here. Only those reported by the Thai Media as their paid for entertainment propaganda news shows.

Carry on living your dream Itnt. Me, I live knowing that in buying chanote land I was getting what I, my wife, paid for and that is land that can't, under any circumstances, be taken away from us. Can you say the same thing?

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Originally Posted by ltnt

As for land grabs by the government I've not seen any up here. Only those reported by the Thai Media as their paid for entertainment propaganda news shows.

Carry on living your dream Itnt. Me, I live knowing that in buying chanote land I was getting what I, my wife, paid for and that is land that can't, under any circumstances, be taken away from us. Can you say the same thing?

Just been talking to a Swiss guy who has quite a bit of Land under cultivation near to Lahansai ,I asked him about owning and buying land just out of curiosity ,he said anyone who buys land for his wife and family without a Chanote is a risk taker ,he also said thats why you can often buy it cheaper without one because its a gamble .

Piwanoi everything in Thailand is a gamble. They can change the rules tomorrow and we could all be gone. When I came to Thailand 9 years ago the missus bought land (Chanote) which cost 4 times that of SPK. I struggled to find out why as I was newby. A guy who used to post on here nick 'Tsicar' educated me. Told me my missus done right and I should never build a house on SPK land. Shame he doesn't post on here any more he could teach many a poster a few things as to the ways of the Thais.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Piwanoi everything in Thailand is a gamble. They can change the rules tomorrow and we could all be gone. When I came to Thailand 9 years ago the missus bought land (Chanote) which cost 4 times that of SPK. I struggled to find out why as I was newby. A guy who used to post on here nick 'Tsicar' educated me. Told me my missus done right and I should never build a house on SPK land. Shame he doesn't post on here any more he could teach many a poster a few things as to the ways of the Thais.

Yeah everything a Gamble ,even riding a motor bike at 30kmh with a clear road in front of you ,the leg is just about right now ,after what 3 months?,My own fault I suppose as I should have heeded your advice and got it sorted pronto instead of it finishing up a hole big enough to get your fist in !

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

95% of agricultural land, and land outside of the towns and villages in Isaan is NOT Chanote, or NS3. Indeed, some larger market towns will have Chanote on one side of the main drag, NS3 or less on the other. Go figure. It will never happen that this "crown" land will be taken back from areas in the boondocks that have no commercial benefit to large monied companies ie factories etc. There would be anarchy, and more importantly, rebellion. The "crown" know this, as well as all recent governments. Eventually, (hopefully in my lifetime), the land paperwork mess of a system will get sorted. If you go into an SPK office these days, everything is slowly getting sat navved, updated and they are on the case.

Agreed, 100%. I would be hesitant to buy land adjacent to a river, rail line or a forested area, (etc) with no Chanote but where we are there are almost no titles. Most of the villages have no titles either. My MIL's house is on Sor Por Kor title but they better bring the army if they think they will be getting her out of the house. Our farms are all on un-titled land and in our area it is preferred as there are no Chanotes and everyone avoids Sor Por Kor as they believe it to be more difficult to transfer.

There is no way that they are just going to start evicting people of land that is not part of a park or other reserved crown area unless they have a darn good reason. Also I doubt land with no title is necessarily crown land either as the crown would have no title as well.

Finally don't think your Chanote is so bombproof either, some of them are fake and even if they aren't you can still have you land appropriated. If the government decides they really want to build something where your house is they can and will appropriate it and they will decide what your compensation will be and you will have a heck of a time fighting them on it.

Originally Posted by Moolek

If the government decides they really want to build something where your house is they can and will appropriate it and they will decide what your compensation will be and you will have a heck of a time fighting them on it.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Moolek

If the government decides they really want to build something where your house is they can and will appropriate it and they will decide what your compensation will be and you will have a heck of a time fighting them on it.

Exactly.

or anyone with power and influence it seems..see shrimp farming land grab news item/thread