Building a house in Isaan, for Dummies.

[Isee]

Well Musty I for one happen to agree with your observations. If you want a “western” house just build it in the west.

I'm just curious BKKBILL as there can be a misunderstanding of someones interpretation (or expectation) of western or "farang quality" - in my definition its something above what Somchaislaptogether would be happy to leave you with. Would you consider the expectation of windows not leaking to be a feature of a "western house"? What about level floor tiles that passes the "coin test" - is that a feature of a western house? Walls to be square - is that reserved for a western house??





MUSTY - I'm truly happy for you mate - from the pictures, it certainly looks OK. In fact I'll easily go one further and say it does look good all up. How do you think it will fare during the wet season seeing that its so open?

I can see one thing that they have done which I picked them up on with my house - but on its own it would come across as a bit of a "nit pick" and I'd be curious if you pick it up yourself. However, I can also see something that they have finished off well that they didn't do for me. I reckon reserve your final determination until you can have a close look.

I like your idea about the roof sprinkler, I have come across the idea before either here or somewhere else. The thais will think you are crazy - but who cares I take it you are looking at it for the main house and therefore sounds like you are having heat retention problems like myself. I reckon your big problem is having something durable that could sit up on the roof and deal with the UV and heat. I've only seen plastic sprinklers in the places I've looked in LOS and as a general rule, thai plastic doesn't fare well leaving it in exposed sunlight. If you are really serious about it, I'd be trying to source metal or UV treated sprinklers from home and bringing them over with you. The other option is using soaker houses - once again something of good quality.

[Isee]

Forgot one thing but for some reason I can't edit my previous post. If you want to set up a timer system, source it from home as well - save you the trouble of trying to find a good one in LOS.

[MUSTY]

Thanks Isee, I will resource it before we go. It was interesting that the Cardif Air system, whereupon a radial fan placed in the roof sucking the air through the house and then through the roof and out the eeves had a possible tendancy to recycle back through the house.(because you need to open windows etc.) We would be using a timer and the bore water for the cooling. The previous post stated a 12,000 btu outcome. That was an error on my original post. It is actually 120,000 btu's that was stated in the experiment.

You were right with regards the hot house and we got the gyprock with the silver paper side, which makes me chuckle. But I thought that when I went over, I could sought it out. The new addition has been placed on the afternoon side of the house, it may assist a little. With the open area on the new extension, we are going to try the plastic roll down blinds with the zippers. Similar to the restaurants with outdoor areas. Easy to roll up and out of sight.

Anyway, look forward to checking it all out. Thanks again, enjoying your thread very much.
Cheers.

[Isee]

Musty - I forgot you were Aussie, Eumundi no less - go through there on bike rides once in a while.

That Cardiff system to me looks like a bit of a maybe in my mind. As I understand how it works, its creating a +air pressure in the roof and forcing the roof air to be expelled down through the eave vents. The real benefit I see it is that its pretty much invisible. Sounds like you've done your research on it and probably know a bit more about it. Why not just use a couple of whirly birds on the roof with vented eaves. That system as I understand it as well, is that its a suction action occurring which seems more efficient to me - as hot air naturally rises. Obviously the birds are more visible and some people don't like them (my wife being one). You're in the same boat as me, a roof that doesn't allow itself to be vented through the normal way in Thailand (as done in your extension) and ripping out some of your eave panels and replace them with vented ones (the more the better).

I think Sabang got the silver foil gyproc as well - not sure if he remembers talking about the subject with me. There was a product that we nearly bought (after finding out what the builder was putting in) when we were in Homemart (it was on special at the time) that was your normal roof bat covered in a silver foil. The rating seemed a good balance against its price. We decided to leave it to see how hot the house got with the insulation we put in. Can't remember the name of it but wouldn't be hard to find. Where are you based in LOS - Roi Et? I have a feeling Global House sells them as well.

[BKKBILL]

Don’t want to hijack MUSTY’s excellent thread but seeing you asked. I would consider the expectation of windows not leaking to be a feature of a a properly constructed Thai house also the same with level floor tiles that passes the "coin test". Walls being square could be stretching it. Maybe I just got lucky with my builders. If I do run into Somchaislaptogether possibly a pass will be in order, but thank you for the heads up.

[DrAndy]

I like your idea about the roof sprinkler, I have come across the idea before either here or somewhere else. The thais will think you are crazy - but who cares

my neighbour in CM uses a sprinkler system in hot weather; he says it works well and is much cheaper than aircon

strangely enough, he is Thai

[sabang]

I think Sabang got the silver foil gyproc as well

Yep-I checked it up when you called. The reasons my house is relatively cool must have more to do with the aspect (east facing), the fact that the two main sun exposed walls are shaded by the carport and the back verandah, the Q-Con, and open plan interior. Also with no walls around the place and an open outlook, even the slightest breeze gets thru'.

Sorry to hear about the 'Hotbox' issues, and I hope they're sorted out OK Musty and Isee- thats one thing I'm pretty picky about, Mrs sab and the Mil too- they both hate aircon.

As for your 'new addition' Musty- it looks great mate, well done. I think you'll be spending plenty of time out there on hot days, as opposed to the house interior- thats the Isaan way.

[sabang]

The problem with the builder's wife, was her insistance in asking for payments before they were due.

She tried it on mrs once (I mentioned it early in this thread). The answer was a firm 'No'- although DD did subsequently mention he thought the payment (3rd, i think) was well due by then!. But they were the agreed terms. If you don't mind guys, I will feed this back to them, 'cus this sort of thing is infuriating to many a farang. It's their job to get their budgeting and cost estimating right on this type of quote.

Decide whether or not you want him for for labour hire only, compared to quote on full job. (labour and materials)

I've been thinking about this, and I think the answer might vary according to the 'personality type' of farang we are talking about. Now me, I'm a Dummy when it comes to building, plus basically a 'type B' hands-off kind of guy. The certainty of the 'all-in' quote attracted me, as I knew exactly what I would be paying- in fact I did do one or two things better in the end, such as tiles and insulation, but it was close enough. So the main stress for me in the whole excercise was picking the right builder (once again, see the first part of this Thread). Then I pretty much let them get on with it until the finishing stages. It worked fine for me.

Now a 'Type A' type farang, and/or a guy that knows a fair bit about building is probably gonna be different. He wants to be involved or observing at all stages of the process, down to and including picking his own building materials. That way, he both knows exactly what he is gonna get- and only has himself to blame if it isn't what he wanted! So I think in this instance (and contrary to my earlier advice) a contracted Labour price plus materials bought seperately would work better for 'Khun A'. As I mentioned earlier, in my observation most of the jobs I've been privy to that are done this way do run over the anticipated budget though- so it is up to you to get your costing right Khun A, or at least not cry foul if it ends up more than you originally thought. As luck would have it, there is a guy a few km's from me in Ubon who did it this way, and he did well. Then again he must have spent hundreds of hours (by his estimation) shopping around all of the Builders merchants in Ubon and surrounds, comparing prices and seizing on the specials that apparently regularly come up. But he had a decent builder, and got a good job done at what seems a good price too.

There is also a 'Type C' farang . Now he will usually just leave it to the wife and family to sort. Oh my Gawd- we've got one around here. You reckon you've had problems with your wall Isee- his collapsed, twice. On the back wall, they just ended up bulldozing in a few ton of earth and making it a dike instead. There is absolutely no drainage on the side walls either- I doubt they will last. Then theres the electrics, the finishing, the wonky stairs, etc etc. And of course the mounting cost. Yet Farang C, amazingly, is still happy- "well, lets face it, it still costs way less than it would in the UK". I think Isee, in contrast, would have had a coronary! My advice to a "Type C" farang- try at least to become like a Type B for this excercise (TIT). Or hope to hell your wife is a 'Type A'. You should probably get your price quoted up front, and pay time and attention to getting a half decent builder too (ie not your wifes cousins). But you probably won't.

[Isee]

Yet Farang C, amazingly, is still happy- "well, lets face it, it still costs way less than it would in the UK". I think Isee, in contrast, would have had a coronary!

Yep, if I had handed over any money (either labour or materials) I would have certainly gone off my nut if they came back with mai bpen lai as an excuse and I was out of pocket . I reckon the best you could get might be an offer to do labour for free but would find it hard to believe for them to pay for materials - even if its there own fault. Their way of thinking would be you only paid us for labour - the materials are your problem (even if we've wasted them).

I also think you've made a good observation about the "type" of people as to whether an all in quote versus a labour quote is suitable. To be buying materials, I think you would need to have a fair knowledge of construction as well as the time AND a place to store materials in advance. The biggest problem I still believe in a labour only deal is wastage or theft of materials.

The same "3 layer" observation you can also make with the "expectation" of what you will get.

1. As long as it doesn't fall down its ok;
2. An expectation of good workmanship;
3. An unreasonable expectation.

I would like to think that I fall in the middle, I expected work to be done using proper building methods. Quite a number of times I looked at some work and thought "hmmmmm - ok I'm in Thailand lets see how it turns out". When what they were doing was just downright wrong (in my novice building knowledge), I would pull them up on it. My house was in excess of 10k per sqm - while I don't think I paid massively over the top, I certainly KNOW I didn't get any sort of bargain. That was something I knew at the time of contracting and while I accepted the price, I did so on the reassurances that I would be getting "farang quality" - so I was expecting what I was paying for.

I simply don't agree with the attitude of comparing prices with "back home" - its a comparison of apples and oranges in my opinion, its that simple.

I had a similar problem with early payments - I thought most of them were too early but went with the flow to keep the peace. I said no (a number of times) at the end for the final payment as they were a good 10 days out from completion. As it was, in hindsight, I should have withheld the final payment until I was happy with the finishes and not trusting that they would be back to fix everything up (which they said they would do).

[Norton]

The biggest problem I still believe in a labour only deal is wastage or theft of materials.

There is that but when you think about it, there is no incentive for the builder to optimize time on the job. Unless the buyer is an experienced project manager and is on site everyday, the builder in no hurry to complete the job.

[Isee]

Norton, so is that another cross against a labour only agreement?? Thats how I read what you say but not 100% sure

[Norton]

Norton, so is that another cross against a labour only agreement??

Absolutely. I have done a couple. Never again. Oops, take that back. Built a rice barn recently on a labor only basis. Three village "builders" at 200 baht a day each. I bought all the materials and was with them everyday explaining the intricacies of fitting tab A into slot B.

[bobbysan124]

Very nice and entertaining thread. Hope you and Mrs. enjoy for many moons to come.

[sabang]

Finally, we have our own Source' Perrier.

Several things have been waiting on this- not least the fishpond, and gardens. And after three failed attempts on our immediate land, things were not looking up at all. My 'fallback' position was to connect up to the local forest Wat, but it was never one I was happy with. It would have involved around 3.5 km of pipes to be laid- not cheap at all, and plenty can go wrong in that length of piping- not to mention I couldn't be sure how the water pressure might be at the other end. Might well need an auxiliary pump. On the good side, it is nice sweet potable water- we use it as drinking water here actually.

But it was all pretty perplexing- several properties around us have well water, no problem- and their wells are not that deep, 25-35m. Why didn't we? And as I continued a slow process of local enquiries, it got even more perplexing. Those shallow wells locally are fine, but then there are other places that had to go deeper too- oftentimes under a rock layer. But that water varied- sometimes it was great, like mineral water, other times salty and with a vague sulfur smell. So if I went deep- which would involve a more sophisticated and expensive drilling rig, I might just end up with crap water too. It seems the local aquifer is quite complex.

But in the local vicinity, I did notice that most of these 'shallow well' properties- and they produce good clear water- are roughly linear, you can draw a straight(ish) line between them. And that line passes through another 13 rai of land we have, down the track from the house. Worth a shot? Must be an old river bed down there or something, now an unconfined aquifer as opposed to a confined body of water- where the water, apart from being deeper, can be real good or real bad.. The same boys who did the last, failed attempt to eke water from our barren land were more than happy to give it a shot again, so decision made and off we go. Fingers crossed too.




Our home is to the right, along this track-



Like 400 metres or so. We're just past the bend in the track, and as you can see we pressganged some locals for the pipelaying-




I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is the best we could do as far as this Dummie can tell. The drilling job itself was a doddle- easy drilling conditions, rounded water eroded pebbles started appearing at around 27 meters- and that means theres water down there. The well was sunk to 32m, at which point it was producing crystal clear water. Smiles all around.

So we now had a well, but pump, power and piping yet to be done, so it was plugged for the night, to be completed next day-




And I enjoyed my beer that evening.

[sabang]

So heres the pump going in next day- it's a 'Lucky Star' brand, never heard of em but they seem to be the main choice around here, and thats good enough for me.



Western standard wiring -



Of course, an unattended pump out here in the Sticks does lead to temptation for the light fingered few.



A lick of paint, and presto-




Now if a pump were left like that in a similarly remote place around Pattaya, I doubt it would last three days frankly. But this ain't Pattaya. We'll see.


The cost of the exercise-
Drilling crew - 8000 bht (+ one Lao Khao). Cheap
Lucky Star pump- 7300 bht, including a few connecting bits
Water Pipe & connectors & glue- 9000 bht
Electrical wiring- 6900 bht
The pump cage- 2000 bht
The Road gang- 1500 bht

Total = 34,700 bht

Of course over half of the cost is due to the fact we've had to go 400m from our house to get water, and then connect it. But get water we did- and good water it is too.

Phew- but lets face it, what would that exercise have cost in the West? I wager the Road gang alone would have cost far more.

Should you have reason to go down the same road as me and put up a house in the Sticks, I have one word of advice. If your wife says 'water no ploblem', Check.

But alls well that ends well.

[Isee]

^ There is a design flaw in your cage. It wouldn't take much to unscrew the roof and lift the pump out - could be done fairly quietly. Or alternatively if you've used anchor bolts that are exposed which can be unbolted and the entire cage lifted up. While it would stop the average passerby from walking away with it, wouldn't be hard to quietly to remove it with a little planning. Don't take this as a criticism, just wouldn't want to see someone walking away with it one night.

I presume its all up and running - pressure good/ flow rate? I take it you're just pumping into your tank and then using your tank pump to provide water pressure to the house? What is its lift capacity - I would have thought 32m would have be beyond its limits - or at least struggling with it.

[sabang]

There is a design flaw in your cage. It wouldn't take much to unscrew the roof and lift the pump out

Actually there were bars welded under the tin roof to the steel frame later- the wife had picked that up instantly. Just haven't taken a pic yet as it's much the same. Well spotted.

Or alternatively if you've used anchor bolts that are exposed which can be unbolted and the entire cage lifted up

They're seemingly good sturdy bolts, but whether they are unscrewable or not I don't know. I'll check that.

I presume its all up and running - pressure good/ flow rate?

It's fine, quite strong enough. If we run a couple of water outlets simultaneously that drops the pressure noticeably though.

I take it you're just pumping into your tank and then using your tank pump to provide water pressure to the house?

Nope, we're bypassing the tank actually. I'll give it a while to see how it pans out, but if turns out reliable & ongoing decent pressure I'll probably make the tank purely for rainwater. If anything the water pressure is too strong when pumped from the tank by our Mitsubishi pump, although hardly a problem.

[Dilbert]

Sabang, Great Thread! I'm happy to see that both you and Musty have built great homes for your families. Thanks for sharing with all, and I hope you enjoy many years in your house.

[Norton]

Well done! Finally.

[Marmite the Dog]

Nope, we're bypassing the tank actually.

Don't. Get a tank and another pump. You won't regret it.

[sabang]

^ It's set up so we can switch between the two Marmite. I want to bypass the tank for a while so I get an ongoing look at the water clarity, pressure and so on. Mrs sabs attitude is why use two pumps when one will do, fair enough, but we'll obviously keep the water tank full in case of power outages or whatever else might screw up.

Cheers guys.

[sunsetter]

well done sabs, keep rolling along mate

[BKKBILL]

Yes well done sabang. Good thing you bolted that pump house down looks so good you could loose it to someone in need of a great dog house.

[MuckyMan]

Hi Sabang , I was very impressed with your house building project.I am hoping to build a house near KK next year,and I'm looking for a good builder(If there is such a thing),I think your guy may fit the bill, I'd be much abliged if you could supply me with his details, could save me a lot of leg work. Or I should say ,save the Mrs' a lot of leg work.

Cheers,
Muckyman

[sabang]

^ I'll send you a PM MuckyMan- good luck with your project.

Heres a look at those 'security bars' Isee-



I doubt it would be enough to stop a determined tea leaf, but then again this local chappies wouldn't be difficult at all to make off with-



And of course, nothing can possibly go wrong now anyway, cus Mrs sab bribed the spirits -




A few days later and it's all good- the water runs fine and clear (we're drinking it now actually- although I'm getting the water tested, 'just in case'). Pressures good too- so we're still bypassing the tank, and second pump. I'll be a bit curious to see of it jacks up our electricity bill noticeably, as if we've gone to considerable lengths to get it, and it goes a considerable length to get to us.


Perseverance has it's rewards, and my closest farang neighbours house is looking pretty good-




He built it the hard way- locals & cousins. A load of stuff has had to be redone, but it's getting there now.