Thread: Hugo Chavez Dies

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by draco888

Originally Posted by bsnub

^ You should be banned from this thread until you respond to post #101. No one cares about another one of your stupid right wing blogosphere spambot posts.

Yup this 'you should be banned' is standard reaction for the left wing warriors. Nothing like silencing what you do not wish to acknowledge.

That's their MO.

Heh...one way to make a a Liberal's Head Explode is to point out that Vladamir Lenin was a bigtime Liberal who preached UNIONS. What a guy!

Still dodging out on answering that post eh boontard? Once again you have been called out and blown out of the water. Carry on then spambot.

WTF, over. Can somebody explain why an official U.S. delegation was sent to Caracas for the funeral of Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez. It only boosts our enemies while diminishing America.

The death of Chavez this week should have been an opportunity for the U.S. to rally global support for Venezuela's battered democrats and make a stand for democracy. Instead we're sending a message it's OK to be a Marxist and ruin an economy.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

one way to make a a Liberal's Head Explode is to point out that Vladamir Lenin was a bigtime Liberal

Lenin was a liberal? Really? Do you find yourself looking up to socal in awed admiration of his intelligence and scholarship? Come on now. Be honest.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

WTF, over. Can somebody explain why an official U.S. delegation was sent to Caracas for the funeral of Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez. It only boosts our enemies while diminishing America.

The death of Chavez this week should have been an opportunity for the U.S. to rally global support for Venezuela's battered democrats and make a stand for democracy. Instead we're sending a message it's OK to be a Marxist and ruin an economy.

Funerals are useful at times. They can be used as an opportunity to scout things out and get a feel for what is happening on the ground. Even Mafia families send along a rep or two when a rival Don dies....and loads of flowers. It's tradition, courtesy and a special kind of honor amongst thieves.....

I would not read too much into it.... Obama was just soooo flattered when Hugo told him he wanted to be his friend..... Anyway Venezuela does have a kind of democracy.....we have to admit that Hugo did win his elections fair and square. It really should not be of concern to America if the people of a degraded and proverty stricken state choose to elect a guy who will give at least some of them flush toilets. About half of Americans voted for Obama after all.....what more can you say???....

They are not going to bury Hugo you know. They are going to embalm him and put him on permanent display so all those who buy into personality cult politics can go visit him.....

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Bedtime for Bonzo (1951) - IMDb

Bedtime for Bonzo. He was upstaged by a minkey.

^

Some of these things are true and quite commendable......however the starting point was so low it really had nowhere to go but up in terms of living standards at least. Being the 4th highest in per-captia income in South America when you have the biggest tank of oil in the western hemisphere is hardly a crowning achievement, but I suppose we have to admit that it's better than being 5th or 10th.......

The fact is that Hugo did manage to spread some of the oil revenue around and bought himself a lot of hero worship and votes in the process. Unfortunately he weakened the country and virtually destroyed hopes of a sustainable economy in the process.

There are so many well written accounts of conditions in Venezuela and it's clusterfuck economy it's hard to know where to start...but here is one recent one from Jan 15th this year.....


CARACAS, Venezuela—Mireya Bustamante spent most of the day trying in vain to find flour to bake a birthday cake for her 4-year-old son.
Like most Venezuelans, the single, 33-year-old office worker has periodically struggled with such food shortages for years, and, like many in the country, thinks they're getting worse. She blames price and currency controls imposed by the government, though authorities contend unscrupulous business owners are at fault.

"An odyssey that never seems to end" was how Bustamante described the everyday challenge of finding basic foodstuffs.

"What good are the controls if it becomes so difficult to find basic products?" asked the mother of three. "It's the government's fault, not the owners of neighborhood grocery stores."

Venezuelans have long had to shop around to find scarce foods, and lately consumers have had particular trouble finding staples such as chicken, cooking oil, sugar and coffee, as well as toilet paper and some medicines. The shortages are a potential political vulnerability for the government while President Hugo Chavez remains in a Cuban hospital, unheard from more than a month after his fourth cancer-related operation.

Such economic questions about his socialist model are adding to the political uncertainty sparked by Chavez's illness and long absence. However, there have been no signs so far that the political crisis is aggravating the economic one.

Chavez's government has sold cheap, subsidized staples at state-run markets for years to reinforce support among the poor. It says price controls, established in 2003, are essential to protect consumers by countering inflation while government-established exchange rates for foreign currencies are needed to prevent capital flight. Those currencies, chiefly the U.S. dollar, enter the country as payment for Venezuelan oil.

But many economists counter that government mismanagement of the economy through the price and currency controls are in fact making people's lives harder by making it more difficult to find goods. Critics also argue that official accusations of hoarding and price speculation aim to deflect blame for failed policies.

On top of that, many analysts believe heavy government spending on social programs and giveaways ahead of Chavez's Oct. 7 re-election badly depleted the nation's treasury, which further shrank the supply of dollars.

"Since the presidential election in October the government has seriously restricted the amount of dollars it is assigning to the private sector. This has caused the parallel dollar to soar and is leading to shortages," said David Smilde, a University of Georgia sociologist and analyst for the U.S. think tank the Washington Office on Latin America.

The Chavez government has long been at loggerheads with private business leaders over state-set price controls and on Jan. 7 government inspectors began raiding warehouses. The government said Monday that it had recovered 3,088 metric tons of allegedly hoarded food this month.

Over the weekend, National Guard troops entered one market in downtown Caracas and confiscated 20 tons of beef, 15 tons of corn and 4 tons of garlic that allegedly violated price controls.

A central part of the problem has been Venezuela's growing dependence on food imports, which have risen in the nation with the world's largest oil reserves. Domestic production of some food products has declined while inflation has soared, reaching 20 percent last year, the highest in Latin America.

Starting in 2007, Chavez also stepped up nationalizations of industries and expropriations of private property, although it's unclear how those moves have affected food production.

Jorge Roig, who represents Venezuela's largest business chamber, called on the government Monday to free up more dollars, which could be used to buy more imported goods. He said that on average Venezuela is importing between 65 percent and 70 percent of its food each month.

Roig said business leaders in October had warned the state agency responsible for trading U.S. dollars to businesses at the official exchange rate that shortages of food and other products would occur during the first quarter of 2013 if the government didn't release more hard currency.

"The market is undersupplied and it's showing on the shelves," he said.

A monthly scarcity index compiled by Venezuela's Central Bank, relying on spot checks in markets across the nation, reached its highest in four years last month. The index remains below a high hit in 2007, when widespread food shortages were considered a key factor in Chavez's defeat in a referendum on constitutional changes.

Pollster Luis Vicente Leon said the current shortages could again reach levels seen in 2007.

The business chamber said on Tuesday it hopes to work with the government to tackle the problem of food shortages.

"Fedecamaras reiterates its willingness to take joint action with the government, business and labor sector that will allow a reversal of the growing deterioration of production, infrastructure and supplies," the chamber said in a statement.

Recently, several shops and supermarkets in downtown Caracas suffered from a lack of chicken, milk, cooking oil, beef, sugar and coffee. Also scarce was cornmeal, the main ingredient for the country's cherished "arepas," which are corn cakes stuffed with meat, chicken, cheese or other fillings.

As a result, consumers must often hop from market to market in different areas of the city to fill their grocery lists.

Beatriz Romero, a 44-year-old housewife, emerged exasperated from a small grocery store in bustling downtown Caracas holding plastic bags full of canned goods and vegetables.

"I didn't find everything that I needed," said Romero, who said she was looking for rice, cornmeal and sugar. "I'll have to go look for the other products somewhere else."

———

Associated Press writer Ian James contributed to this report.

———

Vivian Sequera on Twitter: http://twitter.com/VivianSequera

———

Christopher Toothaker on Twitter: http://twitter.com/ctoothaker
Copyright 2013 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

^ screaming American nutter

Originally Posted by koman

The fact is that Hugo did manage to spread some of the oil revenue around and bought himself a lot of hero worship and votes in the process. Unfortunately he weakened the country and virtually destroyed hopes of a sustainable economy in the process.

Oil prices are booming, but Venezuela is not. Why? Because they're pumping less oil than they used to. Venezuela's oil output has fallen by almost a third since Chavez took power.

Well, here's evidence that just 6% of Americans have a favorable view of Hugo the Thug:

Very few voters have a favorable opinion of Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez who died earlier this week, but they’re also not very optimistic that U.S. relations with Venezuela will get any better.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just six percent (6%) of Likely U.S. Voters share a favorable opinion of Chavez. Sixty-seven percent (67%) view the late Venezuelan leader unfavorably, while 27% are not sure.


6% View Hugo Chavez Favorably - Rasmussen Reports™

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Vladamir Lenin was a bigtime Liberal who preached UNIONS.

"Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost."
~Ronald Reagan

A strange conundrum that has emerged with Venezuela's growing affluence is feeding the people. The thing is, Venezuelans actually eat a lot more per head now, than the malnourished campesinos of the pre-Chavez era. They also eat a helluva lot more variety. It's not that they grow less, either- in fact they grow a lot more agricultural produce in Venezuela now than was the case when Chavez came to power. This has been encouraged by government policy- but how efficiently, I wonder- given the bureaucratic morass Ven has supposedly become.

Pre chav, venezuela was described as a Port economy- what was extracted there left by port, and what was consumed there came in by port. Poverty rates in general were appalling, but in rural venezuela they were shocking. Unsurprisingly, there was a strong net migration from country to city- but the rural immigrants formed very much an impoverished underclass. By and large, they still do. One stated aim of the 'bolivarian revolution' was Food sovereignty- not a bad aim really, although contrary to the neo-liberal economic doctrine championed by the US (easy for you to say guys, you've already got Food sovereignty). They are nowhere near- Venezuela remains heavily dependent on imported food, of which by far the largest supplier is the USA. The bulk of Venzuelas oil exports go to the USA also. Thus it always was- beneath the rhetoric, it's business as usual.

The problem at looking at Venezuela through ideologically loaded spectacles, is you will come up short either way. It is no failed commie state, overall it is doing quite well- certainly better than us lot, over the same period. But it is no socialist nirvana either. Any idolatry of Hugo's achievements would still have to concede that they came from a very low base, indeed. And any balanced view would have to take account of the current problems such as inflation, law and order, and standard socialist style bureaucratic creep.

Certainly, the next leaders of Venezuela should bed in the rather tame 'revolution', rather than extend it. It is no more socialist than most Scandinavian countries actually (beyond the chavista rhetoric). A more accurate term for the Venezuelan model is Social Democrat.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ screaming American nutter

You really don't pay any attention do you?. I've said a hundred times on this forum that I'm NOT American....and everybody who has a different viewpoint is a "nutter" with you dummies.....

Originally Posted by sabang

A strange conundrum that has emerged with Venezuela's growing affluence is feeding the people. The thing is, Venezuelans actually eat a lot more per head now, than the malnourished campesinos of the pre-Chavez era. They also eat a helluva lot more variety. It's not that they grow less, either- in fact they grow a lot more agricultural produce in Venezuela now than was the case when Chavez came to power. This has been encouraged by government policy- but how efficiently, I wonder- given the bureaucratic morass Ven has supposedly become.

Pre chav, venezuela was described as a Port economy- what was extracted there left by port, and what was consumed there came in by port. Poverty rates in general were appalling, but in rural venezuela they were shocking. Unsurprisingly, there was a strong net migration from country to city- but the rural immigrants formed very much an impoverished underclass. By and large, they still do. One stated aim of the 'bolivarian revolution' was Food sovereignty- not a bad aim really, although contrary to the neo-liberal economic doctrine championed by the US (easy for you to say guys, you've already got Food sovereignty). They are nowhere near- Venezuela remains heavily dependent on imported food, of which by far the largest supplier is the USA. The bulk of Venzuelas oil exports go to the USA also. Thus it always was- beneath the rhetoric, it's business as usual.

The problem at looking at Venezuela through ideologically loaded spectacles, is you will come up short either way. It is no failed commie state, overall it is doing quite well- certainly better than us lot, over the same period. But it is no socialist nirvana either. Any idolatry of Hugo's achievements would still have to concede that they came from a very low base, indeed. And any balanced view would have to take account of the current problems such as inflation, law and order, and standard socialist style bureaucratic creep.

Certainly, the next leaders of Venezuela should bed in the rather tame 'revolution', rather than extend it. It is no more socialist than most Scandinavian countries actually (beyond the chavista rhetoric). A more accurate term for the Venezuelan model is Social Democrat.

Well put Sabang.... although I was just called a screaming American nutter and redded by TD's resident raving Belgian troll for saying pretty much the same kind of thing.......

Again, I believe Hugo was another one of those personality cult leaders who did some good for some of his people, but the country as a whole has probably lost ground and there is one hell of a mess to clean up after all the social engineering and wealth "distribution" that he engaged in all those years.

Hugo's greatest attributes were his back slapping style and his ability to keep telling his people what they wanted to hear. He always had America and capitalists in general to vent about and distract from his own clusterfucks. Anti-American and anti-capitalist rants always go over well in that part of the world.

He was everybody's best friend as long as they were hard-core anti-American and he dispensed lots of largesse to bolster support. The fact that despite all the colorful anti-American rhetoric he and his country were largely dependent on the US smacks more than a little bit of BS and hypocrisy....but it's understandable because it buys popularity with the voters and keeps all the like minded despots of the world on side.

His leadership was not all bad and he was one determined and focused SOB; which gained him some respect even amongst his rivals. In a part of the world where there is always a desperate need for folk hero's, he became larger than life. Once the hype dies down, perhaps his fellow countrymen and the world will start to see his "achievements" in a slightly different light. We will have to wait and see how the Chavista can be maintained now that he has gone.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The death of Chavez this week should have been an opportunity for the U.S. to rally global support for Venezuela's battered democrats and make a stand for democracy.

You are aware that Chavez was democratically elected aren't you?

Originally Posted by pickel

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The death of Chavez this week should have been an opportunity for the U.S. to rally global support for Venezuela's battered democrats and make a stand for democracy.

You are aware that Chavez was democratically elected aren't you?

You are aware of the gerrymandering and outright intimidation of any of his challengers throughout the years aren't you?

Making socialism look good? Or making massive oil wealth look good? Being fourth is a non achievement given the oil wealth.

Originally Posted by sabang

I sense a tangible sense of disappointment among many that Venezuela did not follow the (amerkin) plot, yet has not lost the plot. The figures I showed ref the Venezuelan economy are derived from the CIA. Fourth highest income per capita in sth amerka, good performing stock market, one of the lowest government debt ratios (that must hurt the 'it's going broke' brigade). Large increases in literacy, and education standards during Chavs tenure. Stellar rises in the 'quality of life' index too.

Meanwhile, the most vociferous supporters of the american way (who, surprise surprise, are the most vociferously anti-chavista), have to compare venezuela to the performance of america, during the same period. Boy, that must hurt. Time to get a new thinking cap, blokes? America has been going backward, while commie venezuela has been going forward. In America, roughly 30 million of the workforce earn less now in real terms than they did in 1968. Thats Progress for ya.

If you want to be a proponent for the american way in the modern era, I suggest you pay some attention to fixing it. You have a lot of work to do. Right now, you are making socialism look good.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ screaming American nutter

You know he's a nutter how exactly?

Are you still hoping for war in Korea? Who is the nutter I wonder?

Originally Posted by draco888

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ screaming American nutter

You know he's a nutter how exactly?

That's Butters w/out any kind of other rebuttal.

Kinda a girly response...

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Vladamir Lenin was a bigtime Liberal who preached UNIONS.

"Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost."
~Ronald Reagan

If unions are in supporters of freedom why are so many of them in favour of compulsory membership?

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

You are aware of the gerrymandering and outright intimidation of any of his challengers throughout the years aren't you?

Got a link for that?

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

That's Butters w/out any kind of other rebuttal.

WOW!! The two of you may have more in common then you thought.

Originally Posted by pickel

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

You are aware of the gerrymandering and outright intimidation of any of his challengers throughout the years aren't you?

Got a link for that?

Gerrymandering in Venezuela

Vote shows Chavez's grip on Venezuela - CNN

http://fletcher.tufts.edu/_Fletcher-...nter/Tarre.pdf

There's more if you need them!