China reveals pictures of first aircraft carrier ‘Varyag’

**SandMike** · 10-08-2011, 11:38 PM

^^

My reporter on Soi Kophai tells me that the girls at the walking street end of town are much less concerned than you may think - Plenty of sailors around, but not spending much money is the report.

Maybe Sois in the north end of Pattaya did better business

**harrybarracuda** · 11-08-2011, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by SandMike

^^

My reporter on Soi Kophai tells me that the girls at the walking street end of town are much less concerned than you may think - Plenty of sailors around, but not spending much money is the report.

Maybe Sois in the north end of Pattaya did better business

As long as that ship, and the rest of them, are halfway across the Pacific by November, I fret not.

**SteveCM** · 14-08-2011, 11:57 PM

From the blog world.....

Decoding China

Decoding China’s Aircraft Carrier

August 13, 2011

By Trefor Moss

There’s been much speculation about the implications of China’s first aircraft carrier. The Diplomat answers some of the key questions.

When is an aircraft carrier not an aircraft carrier? The answer could be: when it is Chinese.

The first aircraft carrier in People’s Liberation Army Navy’s (PLAN’s) history, which began sea trials earlier this week and churned up no shortage of media conjecture as it got underway, has to be understood on two different levels: the symbolic and the purposive.

Symbolically, the launching of the carrier is another instalment in the narrative of China’s achievement of great-power status. It belongs in the same bracket as the Three Gorges Dam, the Qingdao-Haiwan sea bridge and high-speed rail: mega-projects that demonstrate China’s technological prowess and boundless capacity to accomplish whatever it sets its mind to (even if, before too long, the dams crack and the trains crash).

The carrier’s military symbolism is also immensely powerful. In truth, the PLA’s most successful modernisation programmes haven’t been conventional platforms like warships so much as asymmetric weapons – systems that aim to subvert the enemy’s strengths rather than counter them with like-for-like solutions. Anti-ship ballistic missiles, anti-satellite systems and cyber warfare all fit into this category. Aircraft carriers most certainly don’t. However, the general public – not to mention the mainstream media and presumably many politicians, including Chinese ones – have no idea what asymmetric weapons are; they are esoteric concepts that don’t capture the imagination. Aircraft carriers on the other hand, just like the flashy new fighter jet that China debuted in January, are part of the widely understood lexicon of hard power. People appreciate that a country with an aircraft carrier is part of an elite and powerful club – and that’s precisely the message that the Chinese government wants the carrier to convey both to its domestic and foreign audiences. It’s a comprehensible metaphor for China’s arrival, and something to keep the nationalists sweet.

The ship has great economic symbolism as well. Just as China was launching its carrier, the United States was announcing that it was trimming the size of its carrier fleet in order to save money. It was the perfect moment for the Xinhua news agency to chide has-been America for spending reckless amounts on defence so that it could ‘meddle’ internationally while ‘paying no heed to whether the economy can support this.’ The message was that only China, sitting pretty atop $2 trillion in reserves, now has the fiscal right to build these military luxuries.

However, the practical purpose of China’s aircraft carrier programme is more open to interpretation. Is the carrier a symbol, and nothing more? Or is the refurbished ex-Soviet vessel also the thin end of a wedge that will culminate in a bona fide Chinese carrier capability, with all the security implications that that entails? With many countries in the Asia-Pacific looking on with varying degrees of concern, there are important questions that need to be addressed:

What is China’s first carrier actually capable of?
China’s own declaration that the ship is ‘obsolete’ and ‘for training purposes’ is probably fairly accurate. Naval analysts Andrew Erickson and Gabriel Collins have described the ex-Varyag – widely reported to have been renamed Shi Lang – as a ‘starter carrier,’ and it’s hard to imagine it ever being used as a weapon of war. This is a ship with training wheels for a navy that has never operated a carrier before. The first major milestone, after confirming that the ship itself functions, will be equipping the carrier with its air arm of naval J-15 fighters, which are themselves unproven and still in development. Dean Cheng, a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, estimates that the PLAN could achieve this objective within a six to 18-month timeframe. But training pilots to fly off carriers will be a long and costly exercise, he says. ‘This will inevitably involve failures, they will lose pilots,’ Cheng warns. ‘How will they handle that and what will be the political ramifications?’

How will China develop its carrier fleet thereafter?
This is unknown. China is rumoured to be constructing two new indigenous carriers at the Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai, though this hasn’t been confirmed, and to be targeting a 2015 launch. This assumes that Chinese ship-builders are able to overcome the problems of constructing this particularly complex type of ship (it took five years just to refurbish Varyag). The design of the new carriers will reveal a great deal about their capabilities, not least their size, whether they are nuclear or conventionally powered, and whether they have ski ramps (like Varyag) or catapults that might accommodate larger aircraft capable of flying reconnaissance and command-and-control missions (Chinese engineers have no experience so far of many of these technologies).

Developing doctrine for the carriers will be less of a challenge, Cheng reckons. ‘Shi Lang has been in refurb at least five years, so they’ve been thinking about doctrine for a long time.’ China might be expected to build these first two indigenous carriers and then pause, as it hasn’t historically constructed large series of naval vessels (except small patrol and attack craft). However, Stacy Pedrozo, of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes that China intends to use aircraft carriers to help ‘put an end to US military dominance in the Pacific and Indian Oceans’ in the 2020 to 2040 timeframe, and achieving this would seem to require the construction of several additional carriers, working on the principle that you need three carriers to keep one continually at sea. In a recent congressional report, naval affairs analyst Ronald O’Rourke suggests that China could build as many six in total.

What peace-time applications would a fleet of Chinese carriers have?
China will use its carriers as bearers of diplomatic signals, both friendly and unfriendly. They will be used for high-impact port calls and humanitarian/disaster-relief missions. They will also be called upon to express Beijing’s dissatisfaction. ‘An early operation will be the conducting of air operations outside the 12 nautical mile limit off the United States’ west coast to counter US operations off the Chinese littoral,’ predicts Cheng. They could also be deployed to bolster China’s presence in the disputed territories of the South China Sea, especially as long as the PLA Air Force’s range is limited by its lack of air-to-air refuelling capability. However, Beijing would have to weigh this option against the incendiary – and potentially escalatory – impact that a carrier’s presence might have during times of tension.

And what are the war-time applications?
‘The carrier would be a sitting duck in a conflict,’ suggests a US naval analyst, speaking on background. ‘The prestige value is its serious function.’ There is therefore a real possibility that China has no intention of ever using its carriers as war-fighting assets, since to risk losing one would be a significant blow to national prestige, just as the carrier’s launch has been a boost. The deep water of the South China Sea, ideal for submarines, would be an unforgiving operational environment for a Chinese carrier in war-time, unless China significantly advances its anti-submarine warfare capabilities, masters highly complex naval air operations and develops a range of other protective systems and escort operations (which, given China’s vast R&D budget, it has a realistic chance of doing).

But even then, Robert Rubel of the US Naval War College writes that, while the aircraft carrier is far from obsolete, ‘the seas, at least certain areas of them, are becoming no-man’s land for surface ships’ – and remember that Chinese carriers are entering this harsh environment from the lowest possible base. It’s hard to imagine, therefore, that the PLA intends for these carriers steam into battle to be nothing more than soft targets for enemy aircraft, missiles and submarines. ‘We should not assume that the Chinese are going to use these carriers in the ways that we would like them to,’ says Cheng. Feasibly, China could employ its carriers to participate in international operations requiring air power, but Beijing doesn’t yet seem politically minded to involve itself in this kind of mission. As for warfare against peer or near-peer nations, China might be calculating that it’s highly unlikely ever to be involved in this type of warfare, and that its carriers’ vulnerability will therefore never be exposed.

Do Chinese carriers alter the balance in the Taiwan Strait?
The PLA’s modernisation programme has been heavily guided by the Taiwan contingency, and China already has over 1,300 missiles in place with which to strike the island. So it’s hard to see how a Chinese aircraft carrier changes the calculus. In fact, the carriers are probably the clearest indication of post-Taiwan thinking that the PLA has demonstrated to date. Still, Taiwan reacted to the launch of Shi Lang by trumpeting its new Hsiung Feng III anti-ship cruise missile, complete with a picture of the weapon dispatching a Chinese carrier. Yet this was only a PR exercise – Taipei knows that the PLA’s missiles, not its new ship, are the real threat. It’s ironic that while the original Shi Lang was a Qing commander who captured Taiwan, this Shi Lang has little prospect of following meaningfully in his footsteps, even if China one day reclaims the island.

What are the implications for the South China Sea?
The possession of aircraft carriers undermines China’s argument that its defence strategy is purely defensive in nature. As a power-projection asset, an aircraft carrier has no defensive application, and this fact hasn’t been lost on China’s neighbours. Vietnam, for example, is investing in six Russian Kilo-class submarines in direct response to PLAN modernisation (though not aircraft carriers specifically) – mainly because it disbelieves China’s statements of benign intent. ‘The Kilos plus Vietnam’s Sukhois, as well as the land-based Bastion [anti-ship] missiles that Vietnam has, would all be a big problem for a Chinese flotilla,’ explains Carlyle Thayer, a professor at the Australian Defence Force Academy. So we return to the PLA’s age-old problem: communication. China has never articulated what its aircraft carriers are for, and until it does so its neighbours – already sensitive about perceived acts of aggression in the disputed zones of the South China Sea – will continue to wonder whether Chinese power is about to be projected in their direction. ‘It’s for some of those smaller powers on China’s periphery, much more than Taiwan or the US, that this could fundamentally change things and force them to respond,’ says William Murray, a professor at the US Naval War College. ‘China is going to have a tough time persuading them.’

China’s aircraft carriers, far from being the anachronistic conventional weapons they seem, could therefore prove to be the most impressive asymmetric weapons that China has developed so far: warships that pack an almighty diplomatic punch – raising esteem at home and commanding respect abroad – but which aren’t designed for battle. Meanwhile, the United States and others will expend a huge amount of energy over the next few years trying to figure out if this is really the case.

**nostromo** · 15-08-2011, 12:23 AM

China rules the seas over there

**nostromo** · 15-08-2011, 12:26 AM

And why not. It is their sea. (this is the point I get into difficulties with western -oh well mil. no i mean people)

**Agent_Smith** · 15-08-2011, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Thaihome

For those in Thailand, today is your last day to see a US Nimitz class aircraft carrier, even though you can't get very close.

Yup, don't ride up near one of those things on a sea-doo like I did in '88. Don't think you'd get sailors waving friendly at you like I did. A quite different reception now I'd guess.

**BobR** · 15-08-2011, 05:50 AM

I wonder how much the Americans would like having this thing anchored one meter into international waters off the coast of New York or Los Angeles. The US seems to think nothing of doing this to other countries, it will be hilarious when China does the same to them.

**Agent_Smith** · 16-08-2011, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by BobR

I wonder how much the Americans would like having this thing anchored one meter into international waters off the coast of New York or Los Angeles.

More to worry about nuke subs than some out of date aircraft carrier.

Originally Posted by BobR

The US seems to think nothing of doing this to other countries

We are the world's police. Didn't you get the memo?

**socal** · 16-08-2011, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by SteveCM

The Russians have warned China that it may take them a decade or more to develop the knowledge and skills needed to efficiently run an aircraft carrier. The Chinese are game, and are slogging forward.

Seems a bit long - but what do I know? Anyway, I guess the Thai Navy brass didn't bother about that bit for theirs...... "No promplem"

You know already you must be wary of what some blog tells.

Now russians are doing a spin, saying 10 years, really they need some 40 years to get to the level of the Chinese. By that time, Chinese are of course a bit more advanced.
I am with Chinese on this.

The Kutiznov

**harrybarracuda** · 16-08-2011, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

Originally Posted by Thaihome

For those in Thailand, today is your last day to see a US Nimitz class aircraft carrier, even though you can't get very close.

Yup, don't ride up near one of those things on a sea-doo like I did in '88. Don't think you'd get sailors waving friendly at you like I did. A quite different reception now I'd guess.

Ah yes, I had a similar reaction in a ski boat with the USS Missouri in '91....

Although I have to say, at first I thought they were waving.

**SteveCM** · 06-12-2011, 10:06 AM

From the blog world.....

https://thaiintelligentnews.wordpres...yment-of-subs/

ASEAN Defense: China’s carrier second sea trial sees Indonesia in major arms spending & Singapore rush deployment of subs

December 6, 2011

By Stingray, Thai Intel’s national security journalist

As Thailand is reeling from the flood damage, to the extent that the Thai Navy made statements, that its ambitious submarine program, to acquire up to six used submarines from Germany, will be put on hold-as the Yingluck government have made a 10% cut in every Thai ministry’s budget for money to address the flood damage-Indonesia and Singapore are responding to the China’s challenge.

The following is from the Defense Up-Date Blog:

China’s Aircraft Carrier Begins Second Sea Trial

November 29, 2011: China’s first aircraft carrier began its second sea trial after undergoing refurbishments and testing. The 300-metre (990-foot) ship, a refitted former Soviet carrier called the Varyag, underwent five days of trials in August that sparked international concern about China’s widening naval reach. “After successfully completing its first sea trial in August China’s aircraft carrier platform returned to the shipyard as planned for further refitting and testing,” the defence ministry said in a brief statement. “The work has been carried out and it set sail again on November 29 to carry out relevant scientific and research experiments.”

Singapore Navy Commissions The First Archer Submarine

December 2, 2011: The first Archer-class submarine was inducted into Singapore navy service with the formal commissioning of the new submarine. Two Archer class submarines were acquired from the Royal Swedish Navy in 2005. RSS Archer (formerly HMS Hälsingland) was launched on 16 June 2009 in Karlskrona, Sweden. The second submarine, RSS Swordsman (ex-HMS Västergötland) was launched a year later and is currently undergoing sea trials in Sweded. The Archer submarine arrived in Singapore on 17 August 2011. Under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel (LTC) Jack Nyeo the Archer successfully conducted system verifications and sea trials in local conditions, prior to the official commissioning. With the enhanced capabilities and combat system such as the Air Independent Propulsion and advanced sonar systems. The diesel electric submarines were built by the Kokhums Swedish shipyard in 1986-1987. Both submarines employ Stirling AIP engines, enabling the submarines to have longer submerged endurance and lower noise signature, enhancing the stealth capability of the submarines.

Indonesia to Spend over 1.5 Billion Shopping for Surplus Weapons

November 25, 2011: Indonesia intends to buy surplus weapons from NATO countries that have reduced their military forces in recent months. Among the equipment being considered are Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks to be procured from German Army surplus, and Apache attack helicopters which could be acquired from the Netherlands, Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro has confirmed in Jakarta. Other countries considered as used arms suppliers include France, Spain and Italy. The Army chief of staff, Gen. Pramono Edhie Wibowo, said previously that the Indonesian Army was given a special allocation of about US$1.53 billion (14 trillion Rupiah) to buy weapons, including 100 2A6 Leopard tanks and eight Apache helicopters. The Indonesian Army also expects to be able to get multiple rocket launching systems and 155mm howitzers, possibly from France. Several Bell 214 helicopters are also on the Jakarta’s shopping list.

Second Air Surveillance radar Deployed in Eastern Indonesia

November 15, 2011: ThalesRaytheonSystems has delivered a second air defense radar station to Indonesia. Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU) The first radar station was successfully commissioned by Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU) in March 2011. Located in the Eastern part of Indonesia, the new radars will feed air surveillance data to TNI-AU’s command and control center in Jakarta, where airspace surveillance, interceptor tasking and control are performed. The system provides air space protection over the country’s 17,000 islands and across 33 provinces.

**BobR** · 06-12-2011, 04:20 PM

It would be hilarious if they did war games or parked the thing 6 centimeters into international waters off the coast of Los Angeles with all its weapons pointing east. See how the well the American Government likes the same crap they do to other countries.

**kermit** · 06-12-2011, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Ah yes, I had a similar reaction in a ski boat with the USS Missouri in '91.... Although I have to say, at first I thought they were waving.

A favorite pastime of yachties in Plymouth Sound (UK) back in the day, whilst cruising about was to stand and raise ones cap in salute to a passing RN vessel. RN law dictated that the salute must be acknowledged by a dipping of the ensign.

Great fun to watch the poor little sprog leg it the entire length of the Ark Royal to do the business with ensign.

**harrybarracuda** · 06-12-2011, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by kermit

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Ah yes, I had a similar reaction in a ski boat with the USS Missouri in '91.... Although I have to say, at first I thought they were waving.

A favorite pastime of yachties in Plymouth Sound (UK) back in the day, whilst cruising about was to stand and raise ones cap in salute to a passing RN vessel. RN law dictated that the salute must be acknowledged by a dipping of the ensign.

Great fun to watch the poor little sprog leg it the entire length of the Ark Royal to do the business with ensign.

Ah bless went under the bow of the Ark Royal while it was parked, and touched the side. What an awesome vessel that was.

**kermit** · 06-12-2011, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Ah bless went under the bow of the Ark Royal while it was parked, and touched the side. What an awesome vessel that was.

Indeed.

**Bettyboo** · 06-12-2011, 07:56 PM

https://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/

Oxymoron...

**thehighlander959** · 08-12-2011, 05:50 PM

The Varyag is old technology. Carriers normally work in Battle Groups along with other vessels,submarines and air power to protect them.
ALCM,SLCM all the ability to take a carrier out. Do the Chinese have the supporting vessels to protect their new star attraction??
I am not sure however what I will say is that. This deployment could cause bigger issues in the South China Sea especially with Vietnam who are not known for their great love of the Chinese military.

**SteveCM** · 08-12-2011, 06:48 PM

^

Originally Posted by thehighlander959

The Varyag is old technology. Carriers normally work in Battle Groups along with other vessels,submarines and air power to protect them.

Yes, it plainly is - and they do. The Chinese certainly have the subs and enough of the other vessels to field a Battle Group that's more than a match for the regional players. As for the air support, while no expert, I'm sceptical that it takes anything like the previously-cited 10 years to acquire enough expertise/equipment to provide a] local air cover and b] "force projection". Up against fully-fledged US carrier capability, there's no contest fleet-to-fleet - but that's not the key arithmetic when it comes to contemplating these powers ever going toe-to-toe.

**CaptainNemo** · 09-12-2011, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by SteveCM

The Chinese certainly have the subs and enough of the other vessels to field a Battle Group that's more than a match for the regional players.

You reckon?

China's always going to be vulnerable in terms of supply lines.

If you were to fight a naval war with them, they have to defend a long coast, and their range is strictly limited to where their ships can get replenished.

**OhOh** · 09-12-2011, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by thehighlander959

Carriers normally work in Battle Groups along with other vessels,submarines and air power to protect them.

Have the Chinese 1 plane that can use this aircraft carrier? Or will it be a virtual force, aka the two carriers the UK is building but has no planes to fly from them.

**thehighlander959** · 09-12-2011, 09:23 AM

I think the Chinese J-15 will be the aircraft of choice for carrier operations. I am not sure how technically advanced this aircraft is? Training pilots will take time and after training lots of carrier experience will be needed by these pilots.
Remember when a carrier group is at sea, for air operations the weather is a major factor. Normally two aircraft in the air on CAP (Combat Air Patrol) and this is 24 hours a day, could be more than that during military defensive operations.

I am sure that the Chinese Navy have the ability to progress with this new venture. I also believe that there will be some very large problems to overcome before they can say that their carrier group is battle ready.
I personally have never landed on a carrier however I do know a couple of Fleet Air Arm Royal Navy Pilots. We spoke about the Chinese problem and Varyag in the UK a couple of weeks ago ove a beer in Yeovilton where my mate lives.
His last word on the subject was they will lose pilots, have you ever tried to land an aircraft at 160 knots on a moving table which is pitching and rolling left to right and going up and down like a jack hammer.
Certainly not for the faint hearted, they,ll need balls like Buster Gonad believe me.

**SteveCM** · 16-12-2011, 10:56 PM

US satellite snaps China's first aircraft carrier at sea | World news | guardian.co.uk

Photograph of 300-metre ship captured during trials in Yellow Sea, renewing concern over China's widening naval reach

guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 December 2011 12.39 GMT

US satellite company DigitalGlobe has captured this image of the refitted former Soviet carrier as it underwent five days of trials in the Yellow Sea. Photograph: Reuters

A US satellite company says it has taken a photograph of China's first aircraft carrier during trials in the Yellow Sea.

It is believed to be the first time the 300-metre ship, a refitted former Soviet carrier, has been photographed at sea since it was launched in August.

DigitalGlobe said one of its satellites took the picture on 8 December and an analyst at the firm spotted the ship this week while searching through images.

Stephen Wood, director of DigitalGlobe's analysis centre, said he was confident the ship was the Chinese carrier because of the location and date of the image. The carrier has generated intense international interest because of what it might portend about China's intentions as a military power.

The former Soviet Union started building the carrier, which it called the Varyag, but never finished it. When the USSR collapsed, the ship ended up in Ukraine.

China bought the ship from Ukraine in 1998 and spent years refurbishing it. It had no engines, weapons or navigation systems when China acquired it. It has said the ship is intended for research and training, which has led to speculation that it plans to build copies.

China initially said little about its plans for the vessel but has been more open in recent years, said Bonnie S Glaser, a China expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.

"It wasn't until the Chinese actually announced they were sending it out on a trial run they admitted, 'Yes, we are actually launching a carrier,'" she said. China announced two sea trials, which took place this year, she added.

Michael Schiffer, the US deputy assistant defence secretary for east Asia, said in August that the vessel could become operationally available by the end of next year, but without aircraft. "It will take a number of additional years for an air group to achieve the sort of minimal level of combat capability aboard the carrier that will be necessary for them to start to operate from the carrier," he said.

**OhOh** · 17-12-2011, 01:48 AM

Seems to be moving under it's own steam, which is encouraging. Still no planes though.

**Agent_Smith** · 19-12-2011, 02:39 AM

^You expected to see sails?

**OhOh** · 19-12-2011, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

^You expected to see sails?

Quite a few of "Russian" warships appeared to move only when tugs were around.

Thread: China reveals pictures of first aircraft carrier ‘Varyag’

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