Thread: Indonesia is on the brink of disaster

'Indonesia is on the brink of disaster'

Indonesia's upcoming regional elections have been overshadowed by Muslim mass protests against the candidacy of Jakarta's Christian governor Ahok. The country is on a dangerous course, says Berthold Damshäuser.

The re-election of Jakarta's Basuki "Ahok" Tjahaja Purnama, the minority Chinese-Christian governor, is not the only uncertainty shaking Indonesian politics. The future of the county's secular democracy is becoming more unclear as Islamist groups gain more traction and visibility.
Ahok was accused in November 2016 of blasphemy by the "Islamic Defenders Front" (FPI) group, after he commented that "If you cannot vote for me because you're afraid of being condemned to hell, you do not need to feel uneasy, as you are being fooled." His critics say this was criticism of a verse from the Koran that could be interpreted as a warning for electing a non-Muslim leader.
Ahok is the first non-Muslim governor of Jakarta in 50 years. After massive protests led by the FPI, he was put on trial in December 2016 for blasphemy. Ahok has received death threats and his electability at the polls on Wednesday is seriously damaged.
The protests and subsequent trial for are indicative of the growing role of religion as a political tool in Indonesia and the diminishing place of secularism in the Muslim-majority country.
DW: In the West, Indonesia has always been seen as a moderate Muslim country. What's the current state of moderate Islam in the country?
Berthold Damshäuser: I have been studying Indonesia for 40 years. In this period, the country has changed fundamentally, politically as well as in cultural and religious regards. You can see it when you look at the way Indonesian women dress today. Islamic clothing has become prevalent and you rarely see women without a hijab. The traditional moderate form of Islam has become weaker and religious tolerance is on the wane. At the same time, Islamist groups continue to gain strength. Indonesia is virtually teetering on the brink of disaster.
What was the country like when you first visited Indonesia?
At that time, about 85 percent of Indonesians adhered to Islam, but it was a rather formal form of creed. In the 1970s, the country was still characterized by traditional Javanese culture, which in effect was Indonesia's dominant culture. This Javanese culture featured a tolerant syncretism, a blend of animism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam. It was called "Javanese religion" not without good reason. Its representatives looked down on the dogmatic systems of the book religions and turned to the mysticism of Java, the so called Kebatinan, which incorporated Islamic, Hinduistic and even Christian elements. It even occurred that in certain Javanese families some children were baptized while others were raised as Muslims.
All that has been lost by now and today, most Javanese turn their backs on their own culture. You can say that the Javanese identity has been replaced by an Islamic identity during the re-Islamization in the 1980s. The same is true for other Indonesian ethnicities, whose identities have also been turned into an Islamic identity. Unfortunately, this promotes growing Islamist tendencies in Indonesia and further weakens moderate Islam.
Damshäuser: 'Islamist groups continue to gain strength' in Indonesia

What are the features of moderate Islam in your point of view?
In Indonesia, the country's state ideology Pancasila can be viewed as a touchstone. The first principle of Pancasila says that the Indonesian state is based on monotheism and does not favor a certain religion. This means, it rules out Shariah (Islamic law) as the country's official law. It also rules out the rejection of a governor, because he is Christian and not Muslim. This means: every single person, who rejects the ruling Christian governor of Jakarta on religious reasons, can no longer be considered a "moderate." Unfortunately, it seems today that non-moderate views are being shared by a growing majority of people in Indonesia.
How do Indonesian politicians react to the growing influence of Islamists?
They react in various ways. Some are helpless, while others use it for their own benefit. Unfortunately, there are political forces that have existed for some time, which think they can profit from the cooperation with Islamists.
For example, there is the "Islamic Defenders Front" (FPI), which was founded in 1998 during the authoritarian reign of President Haji Mohamed Suharto. At the time, Suharto was forming closer ties to the Javanese religion, which he used as a bulwark against liberal forces. Incidentally, these forces were able to force him from office but this strategy of using religious elements for political gain continues today.
Could you specify this?
Events in recent weeks and months suggest that even secular political elements in Indonesia, like opponents of President Joko Widodo, have been increasingly trying to gain favor with Islamists. This especially includes the FPI.
They are currying favor with the leader of the Front, Habib Rizieq, who as a result has gained political clout. He has declared himself the "Grand Imam" of Indonesian Islam, which is a downright preposterous claim, but more than a few Indonesians accede to it.
Rizieq successfully got rid of his image as a hate preacher, who was notorious for inciting hate crimes and calling for murder in the name of Islam. He should have never been allowed to enter the political stage. This phenomenon has set a precedence, which will become indispensible for politicians who are thinking about short-term benefits.
Ahok is the first non-Muslim governor of Jakarta in 50 years

How does Indonesia counter Islamism?
Fortunately, there are strong and capable forces in Indonesia that counter Islamism. The PDIP party of former President Megawati is one example. There are also large parts of Indonesia's civil society, liberal intellectuals, the media and moderate Islamic organizations that won't just surrender to the Islamists. That's why the outcome of this culture struggle is far from certain. The government appears to be hesitant and helpless, though President Jokowi is certainly an ideological opponent of the Islamists who want to get rid of him. The fact that he thinks a ban of the clearly anti-constitutional FPI is too risky, tells us a lot. Even the stance of the Indonesian military, which traditionally used to be secular, has been questioned by many people in Indonesia.
Why are the country's liberal and secular forces so hesitant?
Any political debate in Indonesia has too take into account that the majority of voters (85 percent) in Indonesia are Muslim. Criticism of Islamists is often seen as an attack on Islam itself - even by many moderate Muslims. Besides that, many Muslims in Indonesia think that Islam has to be defended against strong and aggressive enemies in the country and abroad. This includes Western neo-imperialism and cultural imperialism, neo-liberalism, an allegedly revitalized Indonesian communism, and recently, against the influence of China on Indonesia's economy and government.
Islamists especially use this defensive narrative. People who oppose this reasoning are being dubbed "Islamophobic" and serve as an excuse for the fact that the defense of Islam is justified. Of course, they turn reality upside down.
FPI's Habib Rizieq has gained political clout in Jakarta

Considering all this, what is the state of Indonesia's democracy?
"Democracy" is one of the many cloudy words we have to use. Despite some shortcomings, the country's existing liberal democracy has been successful. But we have to ask if it is stable. There are even strong secular alignments, which consider a liberal Western democracy unfit for Indonesia. Former General Prabowo Subianto, who lost the last elections only by a narrow margin, comes to mind.
There are also many more advocates of a return to authoritarian rule - most probably in the military. If the advocates of authoritarian rule join forces with the Islamists, which is not that unlikely, and come to power after winning the next presidential election, they will have to "reward" the advocates of an exclusive, radical or intolerant Islam.
In a worst case scenario, it could mean the formation of an authoritarian Islamistic country. It doesn't have to come to that, but unfortunately, today it is within the realms of possibility.
Berthold Damshäuser is a malayologist teaching at the University of Bonn since 1986. He is the author and publisher of scientific journals and books on Asian culture and Indonesia.
The interview was conducted by Rodion Ebbighausen.


?Indonesia is on the brink of disaster? | Asia | DW.COM | 13.02.2017


Jeezuz, I could have sworn some TD member wrote something similar here some time ago .

If the Muslims in Indonesia don't want a Christian leader, they don't have to vote for one. Vote for a Muslim instead. Apparently 85-87% of Indonesians are Muslims so it should be an easy win for them.

I remember a few years ago I was in Indonesia on business. It was about 6 months after the Sunami. i spoke to a few people who were well educated. I was surprised at their attitude towards the USA and also Australia. Australia had recently donated 1 billion dollars towards the reconstruction in Indonesia and Australia had a supply ship helping with food and medical. One female engineer told me that the ship was really just spying for the U.S. and that was the real reason it was there. Another told me America really wanted to invade Indonesia and the Imams told them that U.S. soldiers would kill the women and children. What alarmed me the most was these were from the educated class. In fairness I must say I only went to Surabaya but it is a big place all the same. The huge amount of charity and aid apparently was just a front according to some of these people I talked to. I hope this wasn't a wide held view but it certainly was prevalent with the people I spoke to.

Economy must be in trouble as they resort to deflect peoples attention away from the real problems?

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

I remember a few years ago I was in Indonesia on business. It was about 6 months after the Sunami. i spoke to a few people who were well educated. I was surprised at their attitude towards the USA and also Australia. Australia had recently donated 1 billion dollars towards the reconstruction in Indonesia and Australia had a supply ship helping with food and medical. One female engineer told me that the ship was really just spying for the U.S. and that was the real reason it was there. Another told me America really wanted to invade Indonesia and the Imams told them that U.S. soldiers would kill the women and children. What alarmed me the most was these were from the educated class. In fairness I must say I only went to Surabaya but it is a big place all the same. The huge amount of charity and aid apparently was just a front according to some of these people I talked to. I hope this wasn't a wide held view but it certainly was prevalent with the people I spoke to.

These aid-giving countries need to do better marketing, by the sounds of it.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

I remember a few years ago I was in Indonesia on business. It was about 6 months after the Sunami. i spoke to a few people who were well educated. I was surprised at their attitude towards the USA and also Australia. Australia had recently donated 1 billion dollars towards the reconstruction in Indonesia and Australia had a supply ship helping with food and medical. One female engineer told me that the ship was really just spying for the U.S. and that was the real reason it was there. Another told me America really wanted to invade Indonesia and the Imams told them that U.S. soldiers would kill the women and children. What alarmed me the most was these were from the educated class. In fairness I must say I only went to Surabaya but it is a big place all the same. The huge amount of charity and aid apparently was just a front according to some of these people I talked to. I hope this wasn't a wide held view but it certainly was prevalent with the people I spoke to.

No big surprise. They are our not far away from oz as the crow flys, on a clear night in Darwin ya can hear them chanting, Rice, Need rice, ungrateful fuckers. Wish they would get there shit together so we can get back to exploiting there mineral resources. Dumb coonts

Originally Posted by Neverna

If the Muslims in Indonesia don't want a Christian leader, they don't have to vote for one. Vote for a Muslim instead. Apparently 85-87% of Indonesians are Muslims so it should be an easy win for them.

Is that what they call a "Highway To Hell" or democracy Allah Islam ?

don't bother to answer because I already know your stupid answer

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by Neverna

If the Muslims in Indonesia don't want a Christian leader, they don't have to vote for one. Vote for a Muslim instead. Apparently 85-87% of Indonesians are Muslims so it should be an easy win for them.

Is that what they call a "Highway To Hell" or democracy Allah Islam ?

don't bother to answer because I already know your stupid answer

What a silly post. Even from you that is poor.

indonesia did not use to be 85% "Muslim".

As this guy rightly explains, the Hindus and Buddhists and large Christian populations are minorities but the average bloke in Jawa was not really Muslim at all.

In the old days they had ID cards issued saying "Muslim" partly because "Animist, black magic, campur" was not an option and because non-Muslims were often discriminated against in dealings with the mayor etc.

This made official counts of religion a bit iffy, to say the least. 30 years ago the ratio was probably barely 50%.

Of course changing what it says on your ID card is no easy feat or cheap so they carry on. Surprising number of "Muslims" at my church.

Then the "beards' came to the villages, young men preaching a strange and violent religion that required sacrifices for a wonderful cause. Women started covering up and arak drinkers frowned upon...

I like Jawa, fine place for a bit of mooching about, but give me Bali every time. Hindus have more fun, though they are not really Hindu due to their mix of beliefs.....

Originally Posted by Neverna

Apparently 85-87% of Indonesians are Muslims so it should be an easy win for them.

I'am sure they will. Or have you ever heard of minorities in Muslim countries with equal rights?

C'mmon make us laugh again

Originally Posted by OhOh

If interested here is a link:

Jews of Iran

If realy interested here is the same link without pink sunglasses:
Iran Religious Freedom Report (2001)



Religious minorities, by law and practice, are barred from being elected to a representative body (except to the seats in the Majles reserved for minorities, as provided for in the Constitution) and from holding senior government or military positions. Members of religious minorities are allowed to vote, but they may not run for President. All religious minorities suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing.
Members of religious minorities generally are barred from becoming school principals. Applicants for public sector employment are screened for their adherence to Islam. The law stipulates penalties for government workers who do not observe "Islam's principles and rules." Religious minorities may not serve in the judiciary or the security services. The Constitution states that "the Army of the Islamic Republic of Iran must be an Islamic army, i.e., committed to an Islamic ideology and the people, and must recruit into its service individuals who have faith in the objectives of the Islamic Revolution and are devoted to the cause of achieving its goals." Baha'is are prohibited from government employment.

Questions ?

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

they resort to deflect peoples attention away from the real problems?

Following in Trump's footsteps.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

Here is some more on Women's day. Quote: Indeed, the presence or absence of international women's day warning or 'women's day', we as women who choose deen of Islam as a 'way of life' own day it all day throughout the year. Just look at how God glorifies women. Starting from the dress code to the noble position, all have been described in detail.

Are you suggesting that woman should not take control of their own lives but follow the current here today gone tomorrow "popular" examples rather than centuries old traditions?

If I have understood the highlighted portion correctly, it appears that the lady is suggesting they have a "woman's day" every day of the year.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

If realy interested here is the same link without pink sunglasses:

Are you suggesting the only acceptable rules are those which you accept, That a sovereign country is not allowed to create and administer their own way of life?

^ my take was religious claptrap meaning they don't need a women's day as everyday is women's day. So they don't need to celebrate an International notion.

I do like how these so-called islamic leaders like the FPI's Habib Rizleg try and cultivate
some facial hair but in truth a good scrub with a flannel towel would remove their bum fluff in a jiffy.

^^Pretty similar.

Originally Posted by reddog

in truth a good scrub with a flannel towel would remove their bum fluff in a jiffy.

Only intelligent strong men can grow full beards then? Got it.

In Indonesia’s capital, voters oust renowned Christian politician in show of Islamist power



Jon Emont April 20 at 4:46 AM
JAKARTA, Indonesia — Jakarta’s first Christian governor in generations lost his reelection bid Wednesday, according to unofficial results, after a heated sectarian campaign that underscored the influence of hard-line Islamists in the world’s most populous Muslim nation.
Although the results were not final, early counts showed a decisive victory for Anies Baswedan, a Muslim candidate whose supporters portrayed the race as a referendum on the power of Islam in shaping the politics of Indonesia’s capital.
The outcome also raised questions about whether moderate Muslim political factions could face increasing pressure from hard-line groups energized by the Jakarta victory.
The incumbent governor, Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, was known for tough anti-corruption drives and challenges to hard-line Muslim groups that have taken on an increasingly central role in Indonesian politics. Comments he made last year led to charges of blasphemy that hung over the campaign. His blasphemy trial resumed Thursday with prosecutors calling for two years’ probation, meaning he probably would not face jail time even if convicted. The maximum penalty for blasphemy is five years in prison.
“You won’t see a governor as clean as Ahok again,” said Tsamara Amany, a university student and activist, referring to the governor by his nickname. She called Purnama “a symbol of tolerance.”
But Indonesia’s Islamist groups waged powerful opposition, holding rallies that brought out hundreds of thousands of people.
[How comic book super heroes became part of the Jakarta election]
Baswedan’s apparent large margin of victory — 58 percent to 42 percent in an unofficial tally — contrasted with some polls pointing to a far closer race. Purnama won the first round of voting for governor in February in a three-way race. Official results of Wednesday’s voting are to be announced in early May.
The election also underscored the country’s political rifts on the eve of a visit by Vice President Pence, who is scheduled on Thursday to visit Jakarta’s Istiqlal Mosque, the largest in Southeast Asia.
The blunt-speaking Purnama charged during the campaign that his Islamist opponents were betraying the constitution, and he urged Muslim voters in stump speeches to ignore imams who say Jakarta must have a Muslim governor.
Baswedan, a smooth-talking former education minister, appealed for tolerance while also playing to hard-line sentiment. He declared that, as a Muslim, he would never vote for a Christian.
“I don’t really care about who would be governor,” said Alissa Wahid, a prominent progressive activist. “But I am scared for the swinging pendulum of social change, especially in the Muslim community. They used mosques to spread hateful sentiments, and I am scared of the repercussions.”
In the election’s first round, held in February, Purnama received 43 percent of the vote against two Muslim opponents. In the decisive runoff, he got around 42 percent — suggesting that he had hit his ceiling during the first contest. The population in Jakarta and the surrounding region is about 85 percent Muslim.
[An Indonesian fatwa against “fake news”]
“It’s the downside of democracy. The best one doesn’t always win,” said Joko Anwar, a prominent film director and backer of Purnama. “It’s going to give the intolerant groups more room and justification for what they have been doing, so they’ll keep doing it even more.”
While the election sloganeering was mainly expressed in religious terms, the vote also reflected class tensions in a country with some of the starkest income inequalities in the world, analysts said.
Purnama was overwhelmingly supported by the middle and upper class, but he alienated poorer constituencies with his harsh eviction policies in the north of the city.
“There’s a wide, disenfranchised social base that looks elsewhere than politics for representation,” notably to Islamist hard-liners, said Ian Wilson, a lecturer and research fellow at Murdoch University in Perth, Australia, who has researched the attitudes of Jakarta’s poor communities.
In the Kebun Kacang area of central Jakarta, a maze of narrow streets with a mosque on nearly every corner, working-class residents strongly favored Baswedan. “I will be supporting the Muslim,” said young woman in a headscarf who declined to give her name.
But a short walk away from Kebun Kacang, Jakarta transforms into wide boulevards and huge shopping malls.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.63b2154e5a46

Indonesia is on the brink of disaster?

No problem, since yesterday, it will be managed by the experts on Muslim world (Indonesia is the world's biggest Muslim population)

Pence praises moderate Islam in Indonesia
Pence praises moderate Islam in Indonesia - CNNPolitics.com

A democratic election and some here don't like the result.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

“I don’t really care about who would be governor,” said Alissa Wahid, a prominent progressive activist. “But I am scared for the swinging pendulum of social change, especially in the Muslim community. They used mosques to spread hateful sentiments, and I am scared of the repercussions.”

As opposed to the select few who "manage" the Indonesian MSM. I'm sure some "repercussions" are only a day or so away.

The Indonesian "MSM" is on the wane. Mass communication is bringing all sorts of drivel to the average Indonesian and newspaper sales are falling.

Now some are listening to men with beards and forgetting their culture, forgetting the rakyat are diverse in colors and beliefs, forgetting the struggle for independence.

If you want to find out what Indonesians are really like, then you should go to West Papua and see how people from Jawa treat others who are not muslim, not malay and have a different complexion !!

Originally Posted by BKKBanger

The Indonesian "MSM" is on the wane. Mass communication is bringing all sorts of drivel to the average Indonesian and newspaper sales are falling.

Now some are listening to men with beards and forgetting their culture, forgetting the rakyat are diverse in colors and beliefs, forgetting the struggle for independence.

Indeed.

I'm in Australia, so I'm rather in denial about that.