Thread: Should refugees be women and children only?

So are you now saying that male refugees are okay just sone long as they only flee a little way...neighbouring countries?

Sounds like you are now just being a NIMBY.

What about the Syrians that have managed to flee to Australia, Argentina and Canada? Must have had a bit of money to have done that so I guess it's OK with you.

Originally Posted by Looper

You are leaving out the other option: They can stay and organise a counter-insurgency which has a long and noble tradition in civilian participation in warfare.

Yes indeed . . . accountants, librarians, midwives and postal workers of Arabia unite and fight ISIS

Seriously, Looper?

Too much hyperbole and ignorant* indifference, even in your new flexible policy towards migrants Looper. If you feel unable to accept the current situation for what it really is then we will just have to disagree.

Your point about in theatre refugee camps is accepted and well understood, by me at least. The original influx was already into northern europe before this policy was even proposed. When Cameron suggested it, he was accused of cherry picking the UK portion of refugees. It is a sound policy for the future none the less.

*Please don't mistake this for a personal insult. I believe there are some gaps in your knowledge and understanding of some migrant issues, the individual motivation for leaving home being the main one.

PH , surely you can"t be that thick to think that accountants, librarians and posties did not along with farmers, labourers et al did not volunteer for WW1and WW2 ? why is the conflict in their home country any different? Like I said before Get your head out of the clouds and look at the whole scenario , Why don't Saudi etc take refugees ? because they Know they are lowlifes.

Originally Posted by panama hat

accountants, librarians, midwives and postal workers of Arabia unite and fight ISIS

You forgot plumbers, car mechanics, wood workers, metal workers, oil and gas roughnecks, building and construction workers, unemployed...

Originally Posted by Troy

Sounds like you are now just being a NIMBY.

What is wrong with NIMBY when we are talking about ME culture being accommodated in ME style countries local to the problem instead of culturally transplanting alien hordes into progressive western democracies. The NEMA option is the sensible option for so many reasons.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Your point about in theatre refugee camps is accepted and well understood, by me at least. The original influx was already into northern europe before this policy was even proposed.

They should have stayed in SE Europe and NEMA. Yes, there are logistical issues associated with supporting a migrant population in these locations but the west can assist with finance and organisation.

I have no doubt that Merkel's big show-boating offer of a 1st class life in the west precipitated a much larger group of migrants than were originally planning to move.

The western democracy location option is a problem because it does not allow us to determine who are economic migrants and who are refugees. The only way to be sure that the refugees are real refugees is to make the refugee option less attractive so it does not tempt the economic migrants.

The jihad security disaster of an open door policy is also waiting to blow up in the face of naive and civilised western countries.

These open invitations are foolish on so many levels.

Are you now saying it is okay to have male refugees as long as they don't flood the "best" Countries?

Do you support children soldiers? Appears you do if you are turning away boys 14 - 18 years old.

Should you have voted no in the poll...based on refugees rather than refugees and migrants?

Originally Posted by Troy

Are you now saying it is okay to have male refugees as long as they don't flood the "best" Countries?

The problems with male migrants are that they do not fit in well in western democracies. They behave in culturally offensive ways. The women do not.

If they are genuine refugees then the men would be best suited to refugee accommodation in countries neighbouring Syria which share similar ME culture. But they should also consider fighting for their country rather than leaving if they are able bodied.

Do you not see that offering refugee accommodation that also involves the lottery win of 1st class citizenship in a western democracy creates a problem in working out the motivation for who are real refugees and who are economic migrants?

A refugee solution that is located close to Syria solves this problem since it is only attractive to refugees and not to economic migrants. It also solves the problem of the cultural clash (if gang rape and sexual assault can be called cultural clash) that has come of welcoming them into a civilisation that they are simply not ready for.

Originally Posted by Looper

I have no doubt that Merkel's big show-boating offer of a 1st class life in the west precipitated a much larger group of migrants than were originally planning to move.

Check the timeline. Ninety percent of them were already over the border. Her comments were addressed to those already in Germany. All she did was turn the availability of a young trainable workforce to her advantage.

There will always be problems with this scale of migration, but what she did was pretty smart, and in the long run it will benefit her country.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Check the timeline. Ninety percent of them were already over the border.

I doubt it but the timing of Merkel's comments are a side issue. The issue is what should refugee policy be for 1st world western countries especially w.r.t male ME refugees who cause problems and who outnumber the females for reasons which cannot be rationalised.

Originally Posted by chassamui

All she did was turn the availability of a young trainable workforce to her advantage.

Originally Posted by chassamui

but what she did was pretty smart, and in the long run it will benefit her country.

Chas I suspect we are off into the world of trolling at this point. Please try to keep it serious in SC.

Park them all refugees into the gun manufacturing compounds supplying any sides.
They made enough money to take care of them and let them have more if they continue producing more weapons...

Originally Posted by Looper

I doubt it but the timing of Merkel's comments are a side issue. The issue is what should refugee policy be for 1st world western countries especially w.r.t male ME refugees who cause problems and who outnumber the females for reasons which cannot be rationalised.

Sorry but you cannot invite comment to a thread and then place restrictions on replies, just because you cannot formulate a consistent and worthwhile response.
Given Merkel's tendency to prevaricate, the timeline is highly relevant.

Originally Posted by Looper

Chas I suspect we are off into the world of trolling at this point. Please try to keep it serious in SC.

Again you are using deflection to avoid debating the point. It seems it's ok for you to twist and turn in response to replies, but looking to the long term benefits of German policy as it is formulated does justify her decision, and happens to be relevant.
I may occasionally use a flippant comment to let a poster know they are not being taken seriously but I am not trolling a very serious issue.

Originally Posted by Ozcol

^ And at the end of your sentence you and your family will be returned to the shithole you came from.

Originally Posted by Ozcol

PH , surely you can"t be that thick to think that accountants, librarians and posties did not along with farmers, labourers et al did not volunteer for WW1and WW2 ?

Ah, getting personal again.

Yes, they did. In an organised country with an organised military and an organised civil service.

Are you really trying to compare war-torn Syria to Australia in the 1930s??

Originally Posted by Ozcol

why is the conflict in their home country any different?

If you don't know why their conflict is different from Australians traveling thousands of miles to fight in lands far away from home then you should use your imagination or look at an atlas

Originally Posted by Ozcol

Like I said before Get your head out of the clouds and look at the whole scenario

Yup, you keep saying that.

Originally Posted by Ozcol

Why don't Saudi etc take refugees ?

So, you tell me to 'Get my head out of the clouds', how about you deal with facts.

Yes. FACTS

A quick google relating to the number of refugees in SA

Western Media's Miscount of Saudi Arabia's Syrian Refugees
Western Media's Miscount of Saudi Arabia's Syrian Refugees[at]|[at]Anhvinh Doanvo
Sep 23, 2015 - The government itself of Saudi Arabia has stated that it has, over the past five years since the start of the conflict hosted 2.5 million refugees.

Refugee crisis: Saudi Arabia says it has taken in 2.5 million ...
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/refugee-cri...taken-2-5-mill...
Sep 13, 2015 - Official says Syrians are not treated as refugees and are not placed in camps 'to ensure their dignity and safety'.

Saudi Arabia denies not giving Syrians sanctuary - Al Jazeera
http://www.aljazeera.com/.../saudi-a...-sanctuary-150...
Sep 12, 2015 - Foreign ministry official says nation has received nearly 2.5 million ... "[Saudi Arabia] was keen to not deal with them as refugees, or to put them ...

Why aren't rich Gulf states welcoming Syrian refugees…or ...
International news | euronews, latest international news › News › World news
Sep 30, 2015 - Guess how many of these Syrian refugees Saudi Arabia & other Gulf ... it has accepted about 2.5 million Syrians but they are not referred to as ...
Syrians in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Saudi_Arabia

2 Total number of Syrians in Saudi Arabia; 3 Refugees or workers; 4 View of ... official saying that the nation has received nearly 2.5 million Syrians since 2011.
The Truth About Saudi Arabia Not Accepting Syrian Refugees

anonhq.com/the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-not-accepting-syrian-refugees/

Sep 28, 2015 - The Truth About Saudi Arabia Not Accepting Syrian Refugees ... Saudi Claim: The Kingdom has received around 2.5 million Syrians since the ...

Originally Posted by Ozcol

Panama hat,you have made assumptions about my family history and also my military history and yet you know nothing about me at all

Very true and that was exactly my point. I'm glad you see the problem with making assumptions and generalising

I'm not having a go at you, but your stance is quite ridiculous and is so full of holes that it isn't funny.

So, you're a $1 Brit reffo? A $0 Irish reffo? Your parents? Grandparents? etc...

Remember, one of the whole bunch does something wrong then the whole lot of you get sent back to the UK

Originally Posted by chassamui

I may occasionally use a flippant comment to let a poster know they are not being taken seriously but I am not trolling a very serious issue.

Dear Charles,

I did not mean to imply that were troll-mongering if indeed you were trying to make a serious point. It is just that I could not see how it is an advantage to Germany to have these refugees flooding in.

Originally Posted by chassamui

looking to the long term benefits of German policy as it is formulated does justify her decision, and happens to be relevant.

Suggesting that inviting hordes of 15th century uneducated males with no English or German and a predilection for mass groping and gang rape does not seem like an astute move to me.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Again you are using deflection to avoid debating the point.

I don't think Angela Merkel's remarks are the main point. Working out how best to deal with hordes of Syrian (and various other unidentifiable) men swarming over the European borders like ants is the main point.

But if you want to do Angela then I am happy to do Angela.

My understanding is that Merkel extended a relatively open invitation for any and all people who consider themselves refugees from the Syrian conflict to make their new permanent home in Germany and the rest of Europe. I think this is dangerously flawed for many reasons both economic, security related, cultural and social.

Why do you believe the timing of Fraulein Merkel's invitation was particularly astute and to Germany's advantage? ... if that is what you are saying

Originally Posted by Looper

Why do you believe the timing of Fraulein Merkel's invitation was particularly astute and to Germany's advantage? ... if that is what you are saying

Considering that you give the impression of a well educated and worldly chap. I'm surprised you have to ask. Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe, and a rapidly expanding OAP population. In order to continue taxing society to continue its success as a nation, it needs young people by the bucket load. Simple demographics.
These people are like manna from heaven to the German government. As Troy has already pointed out, the crims you listed are a minority seized on by a voracious shit stirring media. Among them are highly trained and qualified professionals, young people with young families, many of whom are bi-lingual. Exactly what Germany needs right now.
I am not denying this mass diaspora will bring problems, but they are being exploited by media who just love a good story about bad people. In time it will settle down and many of these people might be convinced to stay if Germany treats them well. Some will no doubt hope for the kind of change at home that will enable them to return.

Spot on Chas

I believe most Syrians are taught French and English at school as well as Arabic so they are well suited to the EU

They would be quite horrified at your remarks of them being unsuitable for Western democracies Looper...almost as horrified as Ms Merkel being called Fraulein.

Originally Posted by chassamui

These people are like manna from heaven to the German government.

Originally Posted by chassamui

many of these people might be convinced to stay if Germany treats them well

Manna from heaven? Convinced to stay? Chas you really genuinely are not trolling me are you?....

Originally Posted by chassamui

Some will no doubt hope for the kind of change at home that will enable them to return.

Yes, I am sure they bought return tickets from the people smugglers!

Originally Posted by chassamui

the crims you listed are a minority seized on by a voracious shit stirring media

But we are not talking about an odd incident of rape here or there we are talking about a crowd of men a thousand strong happily sexually assaulting single German women when they stray too close to the mob. This is a cultural mentality.

But that is not even the main argument. One of the main arguments is that refugees should not be offered citizenship in 1st class western countries as their means of escape because it then becomes impossible to determine who is a refugee and who is an economic migrant. The truth is probably that most arrivals have an element of both in their motivation. In order to determine who is a refugee and who is not a refugee the means of escape should offer safety from the immediate dangers of conflict and nothing more. No free tickets to permanent citizenship in the best countries in the world. No lottery jackpots. Just asylum from danger and nothing more. Then we will see who are the true refugees because only they will be motivated by this offer.

The other main argument is that females and children should have priority when it comes to safety from danger. I have heard the most contorted bollix about how the refugees are all men because 'that is the way they do things in their culture and who are we to question their culture' yada yada yada.

Who are we to question their culture? When their culture involves gang rape who are we to question their culture?

^ The rule of law applies Looper. Same as it did for white men who used to get away with gang rapes of women. And white men who used to sexually assault gay men, or even black men, with baseball bats and/or drag them behind pick up trucks.

Got it though. Not only are you a homophobe but you're a xenophobe. But you're OK with the women and children because you're not afraid of them.

You're f-cuking pathetic and shall become my first serial redding victim ever in this forum.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by chassamui

These people are like manna from heaven to the German government.

Originally Posted by chassamui

many of these people might be convinced to stay if Germany treats them well

Manna from heaven? Convinced to stay? Chas you really genuinely are not trolling me are you?....

Originally Posted by chassamui

Some will no doubt hope for the kind of change at home that will enable them to return.

Yes, I am sure they bought return tickets from the people smugglers!

Originally Posted by chassamui

the crims you listed are a minority seized on by a voracious shit stirring media

But we are not talking about an odd incident of rape here or there we are talking about a crowd of men a thousand strong happily sexually assaulting single German women when they stray too close to the mob. This is a cultural mentality.

But that is not even the main argument. One of the main arguments is that refugees should not be offered citizenship in 1st class western countries as their means of escape because it then becomes impossible to determine who is a refugee and who is an economic migrant. The truth is probably that most arrivals have an element of both in their motivation. In order to determine who is a refugee and who is not a refugee the means of escape should offer safety from the immediate dangers of conflict and nothing more. No free tickets to permanent citizenship in the best countries in the world. No lottery jackpots. Just asylum from danger and nothing more. Then we will see who are the true refugees because only they will be motivated by this offer.

The other main argument is that females and children should have priority when it comes to safety from danger. I have heard the most contorted bollix about how the refugees are all men because 'that is the way they do things in their culture and who are we to question their culture' yada yada yada.

Who are we to question their culture? When their culture involves gang rape who are we to question their culture?

Perhaps Deutche Welle and the BBC are trolling you as well Looper?

How Syrian refugees helped an American student during the Cologne attacks | Germany | DW.COM | 17.01.2016

This 'nice' story was headlining the BBC Europe news overnight. It's now buried by 'bad' stories on the same subject.

About 40% of the 1m migrants are identified by Germany as Syrian. The German government has said that 370 complaints were made on new years eve regarding law breaking activities and a significant number of these related to violence of a sexual nature.
I wonder how many Germans/Moroccans/Algerians were involved?

The OP did not mention citizenship, which you now claim to be the central issue concerning refugees. You also seem to have ignored the fact that Germany has made a conscious decision to welcome these people, while at the same time, filtering out those who are economic migrants. Shall I ask Mrs Merkel if she is trolling?

PH while you have the big letters happening enlighten us all as to how many of the refugees that Saudi took in are non muslims ,and how would UK Germany Aus etc be viewed if they only took in Christians.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Originally Posted by Looper

Why do you believe the timing of Fraulein Merkel's invitation was particularly astute and to Germany's advantage? ... if that is what you are saying

Considering that you give the impression of a well educated and worldly chap. I'm surprised you have to ask. Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe, and a rapidly expanding OAP population. In order to continue taxing society to continue its success as a nation, it needs young people by the bucket load. Simple demographics.
These people are like manna from heaven to the German government. As Troy has already pointed out, the crims you listed are a minority seized on by a voracious shit stirring media. Among them are highly trained and qualified professionals, young people with young families, many of whom are bi-lingual. Exactly what Germany needs right now.
I am not denying this mass diaspora will bring problems, but they are being exploited by media who just love a good story about bad people. In time it will settle down and many of these people might be convinced to stay if Germany treats them well. Some will no doubt hope for the kind of change at home that will enable them to return.

Instead of giving all those billions to refugees they could invest it into changing the demographic. Germany doesn't have to be populated by 83 million people. Those 83 million people are chewing on the country like a cancer outbreak.
Those few highly trained and qualified professionals that you are talking about bring more problems (don't forget their unproductive wifes, kids, parents) then benefits. This has been analyzed and report by economists. But I could have told you/them that before

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Instead of giving all those billions to refugees they could invest it into changing the demographic. Germany doesn't have to be populated by 83 million people. Those 83 million people are chewing on the country like a cancer outbreak. Those few highly trained and qualified professionals that you are talking about bring more problems (don't forget their unproductive wifes, kids, parents) then benefits. This has been analyzed and report by economists. But I could have told you/them that before

Before you accuse me of a lack of personal knowledge, you should know that I lived in the country for over 10 years and still visit my many German and Anglo German friends.

Do you know how long it takes to grow a teacher, doctor, engineer nurse from scratch? This is a ready made solution to an ongoing problem. As the German birth rate continues to fall, the country will only continue its economic success with new blood, and whatever you or I think about migration, it will only continue on a global upward curve.
Just be glad you got in early.

Originally Posted by chassamui

This 'nice' story was headlining the BBC Europe news overnight.

Yes, I am sure there are some nice syrians. But I think the behaviour on NYE in Cologne is a symptom of a very unwise invitation with worse yet to come.

Originally Posted by chassamui

The OP did not mention citizenship, which you now claim to be the central issue concerning refugees.

Yes, it is a little off topic from the OP. I can start another thread of you want?...!

Offering citizenship in the best countries in the world to 3rd world refugees makes it impossible to discern a refugee from an economic migrant. Do you not agree?

There are other solutions to housing refugees than permanent residency in culturally alien 1st class countries.

Originally Posted by chassamui

These people are like manna from heaven to the German government.

I think the idea that importing hundreds of thousands of mostly uneducated, culturally backward middle easterners is somehow economically shrewd is original and entertaining but quite wide of the mark of reality.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Not only are you a homophobe but you're a xenophobe. But you're OK with the women and children because you're not afraid of them.

You're f-cuking pathetic and shall become my first serial redding victim ever in this forum.

Still wrestling with those demons storey?

Everything is going to be OK.

Close your eyes and breathe in.

Try to slow your thoughts and focus on the thread of your conciousness as it exists passing through this moment in time.

The future is filled with happiness for you and everyone you love.

Breathe out.

Open your eyes.

Sorry Looper. It's quite clear you have no idea about Syria or Germany and many of the topics raised in the debate.
It's a debate you have lost with every twist and turn and any number of facts that you have been presented with and chosen to ignore.
You prefer to stick with your sandpit ME generalisations and a level of ignorance that is almost embarrassing.
I therefore have no choice but to submit a nil return for the poll and the many subsequent amendments to same.
I look forward to not trolling your next ambiguous enquiry.

Chas, your assertions that these hordes of refugees who have caused civil chaos since their arrival with the mass sexual assaults are manna from heaven is so preposterous that I genuinely thought you were having a laugh.

I think refugees should be housed in camps in neighbouring countries to the conflict (by all means financed by the west) with a view to their returning home when it is safe. Seems like a reasonable idea to me.

They have demonstrated through their behaviour what a cultural gulf exists between their view of the world and a progressive western view.

The men are the ones who cause the problems. The women do not by and large cause problems. If we are going to invite them into our countries (and I think we should not) then I think it should be women and children only.

Women and children need protection more than men do.

Women and children do not cause social unrest like men do.

According to the UNHCR we have already accepted a vastly disproportionate number of men versus women so stopping all male migrants right now would only serve to redress the current imbalance slowly over the coming months (assuming the gates are not closed).

Do you at least accept that the following is true:-

Originally Posted by Looper

Offering citizenship in the best countries in the world to 3rd world refugees makes it impossible to discern a refugee from an economic migrant. Do you not agree?