Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 204
  1. #1
    Northern Hermit
    friscofrankie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Chiangmai, Thailand
    Posts
    7,527

    Sourdough; Bread, Biscuits and Pancakes

    Read my Name. FriscoFrankie, yeah San Francisco; famous for it's hippies, gay politics and above all (in my book) SourDough Bread. Above all things I miss about the living back home sourdough bread, biscuits and pancakes sit at the top of the list.

    Now, there are a few recipes out on the net on building a sourdough starter, some (most?) involve a "packet of yeast." Now, that's just fukin' sacrilegious! Why in the hell do you want to use some domesticated and dormant yeast off the shelf? No true flavor enhancement. It ain't SourDough.


    Breads, like beers derive thier unique flavors from the different strains of yeast used to make them. Why is San Francisco SourDough so highly regarded? One of teh biggest reasons is the local yeast spores caught by the akers so many years ago. These yeast colonies thrive in the temperate conditions of the area.

    In order to make a decent sour dough bread, you've got to choose your bait and go fishin for a yeast that will render a nice tangy flavor, packaged yeasts are fine for putting air bubbles in the bread, but very little flavor. They may not live long or very well in our topical clime and your starter may mold or die.

    Best to capture some local spores and start your own colony. Each locality will have different strains and at different time of the year you may find one strain is more active in the air than an other. Few years ago, living in bangkok I inadvertantly caught a crisp and tangy colony in a pot of over-cooked rice, I was a week from moving and had to let it go. Since that day I've waited for my own kitchen to try and catch one equally tangy up here.

    Like Taj Mahal says, "many fish bites if ya got good bait." let's talk about bait. You need to have some sterile (boiled) water for sure and start with a scrupulously clean vessel (like beer we don't want mold contaminating our culture). But, what do you add from there? add flour to the consistency of pancake dough and see what happens? you could do that.

    Or you could peel some old mealy potatoes chop 'em up and boil them away to nothing add water and flour to the above consistency and wait a couple days. 'Bout twenty years ago I had a starter started in this way, tangy with a touch of fruitiness I kept that culture going for three years, great bread.

    This time out, being in Asia, I though I'd try and catch some rice eatin' yeasts. So I started with four/five cups water and a cup of sticky (glutenous) rice.


    Throw it all in the pot, and set it to simmer for good long while, although the rice needn't diaappear completely; the closer to gone your patience will allow, the better.


    You'll need to tend it a bit, adding water as needed, if you're using stainless cookware, as I am, you need to stir it up to keep from scroching the bottom and getting that crispy stuff on the bottom.

    Now, remember; you can use potatoes for this if you like this the "ol' sourdough way" and it gives pretty good results. Different bait different spores (maybe) different flavor.
    When that's cooked as long as you're willing to wait but at least to the musy as hell stage, take teh pot off teh fire and pour your gruel into a clean glass or plastic bowl or crock. Now you can wait for it to cool, or not, mix one cup clean water with one cup all-purpose flour and mix that in. By waiting for the mess to cool to say 80 deg F. you may be introducing yeast spores living on the flour into the mix and predefining your starter from the get-go. I added the flour/water mixture right away.
    Looked like this:


    now cover this with cheese-cloth ("Pa Khao") nad forgt it for a coupla days.
    When I get back I'll show y'all what it looks like after a couple days.
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty -- T. Jefferson


  2. #2
    punk douche bag
    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    o dan y bryn
    Posts
    29,257
    And there was me thinking that sour dought used sour cream.
    This looks vile, like some sort of science experiment.
    I think I'll stick to nice fresh oven bread, made the normal way without nasty bacteria or I would if I ate carbohydrates anyway.

  3. #3
    Member
    Anonymous Coward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Last Online
    20-04-2007 @ 07:55 PM
    Location
    Ratsima - The Bakersfield of LoS
    Posts
    923
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    I think I'll stick to nice fresh oven bread, made the normal way without nasty bacteria or I would if I ate carbohydrates anyway.
    It's not nasty bacteria, it's yeast. The same sort of stuff bakers always use to make bread rise. In this case you're using a live culture of bacteria rather than a paste or powder made up of just active dry yeast. Everything dies when you cook it, anyway.

    I've never seen a yeast culture captured with rice, but no reason why it shouldn't work. Any carbohydrate should do.

    I had my best yeast culture results in the tropics when I added a bit of live culture yogurt to the mix.

    Thanks for the thread FF. Can't wait for the rest.

  4. #4
    Northern Hermit
    friscofrankie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Chiangmai, Thailand
    Posts
    7,527
    All bread, cheese and beer is based on the same basic principals and soem nasty bacteria Even that Naam you enjoyed so much over at my place, bacteria gives it it's unique flavor.


    Now after two days the "vile scientific experiment is begining to pay off:


    Nice and bubbly, the bait has worked and caught us a yeast that is workin hard to digest alleh starchy sugars in the mix at this point, I'm gonna add another cup of flour and a cup of water, no need to get all the lumps out as the yeast'll eat all up in a day or two. Stir that in with a clean, plastic spoon, some metals may react with the chemicals released by the yeast's digestive processes. after first feeding, and one day of feeding frenzy, the starter begins to take on it's true character.


    Looking at the bowl you can see how the mixture has foamed up (risen) and subsided over the 24 hour period. At this point I gave it another feeding of a half-cup flour half cup water. This was not strictly necessary as there was plenty of solids suspended at the top of the mixture but I wanted to bulk it up a bit.
    The smell coming off the mixture is a rich, tangy smell reminiscent of a sharp cheddar cheese. I'm not real sure it's going to make a good bread, but it is worth trying. The smell is appetizing and pleasant. This starter should be ready for use tomorrow. We'll see how it holds up with regular feeding by refrigerating the mix, it should survive on a weekly feeding. Simply remove some of the mixture and give/throw it away and add one cup flour & one cup clean water. if it develops a pinkish color or if mold develops on the top, throw it away and start a new one, this should not happen as long as you keep up the feeding.

    My right hand has been unusable for about a week now so I won't be kneading any bread anytime soon. BUT sourdough pancakes might just be on the menu tomorrow. I'll report on the actual taste then.

    Making a starter like this, there is no cut & dry, right or wrong. Depending on location and season you may have different results. As with any hunting/fishing; the game you capture, kill and eat will have slightly different flavor and the bait you use may have varying effects on the culture you end up with. if you are not completely satisfied with what you've caught you should get rid of it and try again.
    Some recipes call for the addition of sugar, even milk! I personally have never tried them.
    Tomorrow, sourdough pancakes...

    Some of you other bread lovers around the country would do well to start your own let us all know what works for you. A good, robust starter thatcan handle the tropics would be worthy outcome of a loose-knit collaboration. This my first attempt since moving here. Salvating just thinking about fresh baked real SourDough
    Last edited by friscofrankie; 29-01-2007 at 01:15 PM.

  5. #5
    punk douche bag
    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    o dan y bryn
    Posts
    29,257
    Don't get me wrong...
    As someone who goes to the supermarket to buy stuff, I find it fascinating to watch it done from the get go.

    BTW, I'm sure you can make cheese Frankie.
    or If amyone else makes their own cheeses, that's a process I'd really like to see.

  6. #6
    Member
    Anonymous Coward's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Last Online
    20-04-2007 @ 07:55 PM
    Location
    Ratsima - The Bakersfield of LoS
    Posts
    923
    Frankie -- any tried and true test to determine if the yeast you have captured is "safe" to use?

  7. #7
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward View Post
    Frankie -- any tried and true test to determine if the yeast you have captured is "safe" to use?
    In England, we just feed a spoonful to the nearest available Welshman and see if he keels over or not.

  8. #8
    Northern Hermit
    friscofrankie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Chiangmai, Thailand
    Posts
    7,527
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward
    Frankie -- any tried and true test to determine if the yeast you have captured is "safe" to use?
    as long as it's fresh smelling and bubbly without mold is should be fine to use. as you stated earlier you kill all the bigs when it's baked. I have yet to hear of any sickness resulting from eating wild yeasts, this being the tropics though...
    Obviously, any psychotropic properties are a bonus

  9. #9
    Thailand Expat
    Little Chuchok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Online
    Today @ 03:09 PM
    Posts
    9,216
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    Don't get me wrong...

    BTW, I'm sure you can make cheese Frankie.
    or If amyone else makes their own cheeses, that's a process I'd really like to see.
    I could be wrong here,but I believe that the reason why you get crap cheeses here,is because of the shite milk.I think RC has made cottage cheese before.he might be able to throw more light on the matter.

  10. #10
    punk douche bag
    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    o dan y bryn
    Posts
    29,257
    My wife bought me this cheese from rimping yesterday, cheap and Thai...professing toi be cheddar.
    Absolutely no flavour at all.
    I mean none.
    rubbish.

  11. #11
    lom
    lom is online now
    we have guns and shit lom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    Today @ 04:12 PM
    Location
    Trapped in an old mans body
    Posts
    7,586
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    My wife bought me this cheese from rimping yesterday, cheap and Thai...professing toi be cheddar. Absolutely no flavour at all. I mean none. rubbish.
    Cheap and Thai, that explains it all..
    Can you imagine any Thai waiting a year for their monetary return ?

    You could try to season it yourself, I have had good experience in the past when doing so. You may have a nice cheese next x-mas.
    Don't forget to turn it upside down every month.
    There are two hard to handle things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat aging one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    Today @ 04:11 PM
    Posts
    14,879
    April 14th I shall be eating the real thing and thinking of you Frankie. Eating it every damn day.

  13. #13
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,837
    ^ If you're trying to make us jealous because you're going to the States, it'll never work.

  14. #14
    Northern Hermit
    friscofrankie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Chiangmai, Thailand
    Posts
    7,527
    Quote Originally Posted by aging one View Post
    April 14th I shall be eating the real thing and thinking of you Frankie. Eating it every damn day.
    well hopefully, I'll be eating the "real Thing" in a few days, without going back, although, April in SF is the finest time to be.

  15. #15
    Displaced Member cali kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Online
    20-03-2012 @ 10:24 AM
    Location
    Chiang mai
    Posts
    1,109
    Maybe if everything works out I will ask for help in opening my strictly BLTs restaurant BLTs on sourdough only (and maybe tacos)

  16. #16
    RIP
    blackgang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    08-07-2010 @ 08:33 PM
    Location
    Phetchabun city
    Posts
    15,471
    No problem to making cottage cheese, I have made it here.
    I get fresh milk from a dairy and when it starts to turn I just leave it in a gallon jar and set it out in the sun for the day, it will be cottage cheese by evening and then put it in a screen collundar lined with cheese cloth and wash it with fresh water to remove the whey that remains.
    At home we used to set a pot of milk on the back of the wood burning kitchen stove to keep it warm, but the sun here does a good job.

    As for the sour dough starter, you can keep it in the fridge when you are not using it real regular and just feed it once in awhile, I wouldn't leave it out in the summer here all the time, but we run the aircons daily so our kitchen is usually 80 deg or less, and set it out for a few hours before you use some.
    My first wife was a master with sour dough and she always kept the starter in the fridge unless she used it daily and you know that the houses up in the sour dough country are not real warm most of the time either.
    Used to be a roadhouse at 40 mile that made sour dough hot cakes, all you could eat for a dollar, which was a hell of a good price up there but I didn't care for them much because their starter was not real good and they made em to damn thin, tough and like eating a saddle blanket.

  17. #17
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    01-07-2017 @ 03:32 PM
    Location
    Udon Thani
    Posts
    2,109
    aaaaaaaawwwwww Frankie, you shouldn't have, really!

    Brings back too many memories of Sheepherder's sourdough from Bishop CA. What a wonderful bread. No way they would give out the recipe for thier starter.

    A small shop front on main street in Bishop, you could smell it for hundreds of yards. They used to sell out every day, on the weekends they would sell hundreds of loafs. Really the best sourdough I've ever had.

    I used to buy a dozen loafs everytime I was in town. BTW keeps well in freezers.

    Now I gotta try this one... really excellent idea for a thread a greenie.! Shite I can't greenie you YET!

    E. G.
    "If you can't stand the answer --
    Don't ask the question!"

  18. #18
    Bretzel stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Weihnachtsfest
    Posts
    21,620
    Quote Originally Posted by lom
    Can you imagine any Thai waiting a year for their monetary return ?
    What crowd are you mixing with, then, dude?

    Thanks, Frankie, a great inspiration, I'll get started with me starter tomorrow!

  19. #19
    RIP
    blackgang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    08-07-2010 @ 08:33 PM
    Location
    Phetchabun city
    Posts
    15,471
    EG, would that be SHATTS bakery??

  20. #20
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    01-07-2017 @ 03:32 PM
    Location
    Udon Thani
    Posts
    2,109
    B G I believe your correct. Sounds like the place, on the left side as you head towards Mamoth. Of course that was years ago.

    I bought a huge freezer so I could keep the bread. We lived at Edwards and I was in the area a lot as a referee for HS sports and we also camped quite a bit in the Bishop Creek area.

    The wife at the time was pissed because I laid out a bunch of cash for this 20Cft freezer and then filled it with "bread". She just didn't get it. lol

    E. G.

  21. #21
    RIP
    blackgang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    08-07-2010 @ 08:33 PM
    Location
    Phetchabun city
    Posts
    15,471
    Pobly the place then, Yea years ago, my nephew went with their daughter when he lived there.
    We used to do our shopping there in Bishop when we lived in Keiler[sp] when I was a kid [1940/41] to be exact.

  22. #22
    Bretzel stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Weihnachtsfest
    Posts
    21,620
    Great thread!
    I got some rice-sludge goin' now, let's see what colour it will turn in a few days...
    I might have a go at making some "biscuit", once our yanks reveal what it is.

  23. #23
    RIP
    blackgang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    08-07-2010 @ 08:33 PM
    Location
    Phetchabun city
    Posts
    15,471
    Here is something I took off the net, it is good info, and especially about the color of the starter, we have a yellow yeast mold that hits our dogs rice often, so be damn careful of it because it is here and I have never seen it in colder climates.

    Cooks have been baking with starters for thousands of years. Before mankind figured out how to enlist the aid of the micro-organisms known to us as yeast, all bread was unleavened -- that is, it was "flat" (like pita, tortillas, etc. ). Simply put, bread didn't rise.
    Sometime back before the ancient Egyptians, however, bakers learned that if they captured airborne wild yeast, and fed and nurtured it properly, they could produce an endless array of breads, cakes, pancakes, biscuits, scones, muffins, rolls, all light and fluffy and made possible by the hard-working little fungi (that's what yeast is -- a fungus). Such starters were vital in the pre-modern kitchen or even around the campfire. During the California goldrush, grizzled prospectors were known to spend cold nights curled around their crock of starter to keep it from freezing. Ironically, however, starter is able to withstand cold extremes more readily than heat.
    There are three ways to obtain a starter. You can
    • Get some from a friend
    • Buy it, or
    • Make your own
    If you know someone with a supply of sourdough starter, they will probably be delighted to give you some of theirs, just as you will be happy to share yours after you get it going. Some strains of starter can be traced back in this country for hundreds of years, and around the Mediterranean for thousands.

    There are many sources, both retail and mail order, for sourdough starter, either in liquid or powdered form. Each will be accompanied by instructions for care and feeding.
    Making your own starter is fun and interesting. There are two ways, one of which relies upon store-bought dry yeast, and the other, capturing wild yeast from the air. No question about it, the method using commercial dry yeast is the more foolproof, successful way to produce starter. You can never be quite certain what you'll come up with when you go after the wild stuff, but that's a big part of what makes it fun.
    Active Dry Yeast Method
    • 2 cups Warm water
    • 1 tablespoon sugar or honey
    • 1 packet (or 1 tablespoon) Active dry yeast
    • 2 cups All-Purpose flour
    Into a clean, 2-quart glass or ceramic bowl, jar or crock, pour the water. Dissolve first the sugar or honey, and then the yeast. Gradually, stir in the flour. Cover the container with a clean cloth (not plastic wrap or waxed paper -- you want the air to be able to get through) and put it in a warm place (between 80 and 85 degrees, ideally). The mixture will start to "work" almost immediately with small bubbles forming on the surface. Stir it once per day and, in three to five days, the bubbling will subside. Give it a good, healthy sniff and, when it has a clean, yeasty, sour smell, it's ready. Give it a final stir (it should have the consistency of pancake batter), cover loosely and refrigerate.

    Wild Yeast Method
    • 2 cups Warm water
    • 1 tablespoon sugar or honey
    • 2 cups All-Purpose flour
    To make sure you're starting with no undesirable bacteria, scald the container your starter will be going into with boiling water and drain. Mix the water, sugar or honey and flour as described above, and cover with a clean cloth. Set the container in a warm place in your kitchen. Give it a stir every day. If you have been successful in trapping wild yeast, it should start to "work" within a few days. Let it work for three or four days, stirring it each day. When the smell is yeasty and sour, transfer it to a clean container and refrigerate until you're ready to use it.

    This is important: If the mixture develops mold, turns an odd color (pink, orange, green, blue) or smells anything other than sour and clean, throw it out. The wild yeast in your kitchen just may not want to cooperate or there may not be enough present to start the starter.
    Sourdough Starter Care and Feeding Tips
    • If the water in your area contains chlorine, use distilled water or tap water that you've allowed to set out for 24 hours when you make your starter. Chlorine can put a lid on the development of yeast.
    • Your sourdough starter will live in the refrigerator -- bottom shelf preferred.
    • Use only glass, glazed ceramic or crockery to hold your starter. No metal or plastic. And start clean, and keep it clean. Every so often, you can dump the starter into a temporary container while you wash its permanent container in hot, soapy water. The container should be covered, but the lid should not be air-tight.
    • I've read many recipes that caution you in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS never to stir your starter with anything other than a wooden or plastic spoon. My starter is living proof that a quick stir with a stainless steel spoon won't hurt it.
    • Let's say you use one cup of the starter to make Sourdough Bread. Replenish your starter by stirring in one cup of water and one cup of flour. After feeding or replenishing your starter, you should let it sit at room temperature for at least 12 hours, then stir and pop it back into the refrigerator.
    • If you don't use your starter, you still have to feed it. Under most circumstances, it needs a feeding every two weeks or so. Just stir it up, pour a cup down the drain (I always feel like a murderer when I do this), then replenish as usual.
    • Healthy starter will develop a yellowish liquid on its surface. The liquid contains 12% to 14% alcohol and is part of what gives sourdough breads their distinctive taste. The alcohol dissipates during the baking process, so don't worry about getting tipsy from your home-baked bread. Be sure and stir the liquid back into the starter before using it.

    Starter is pretty tough. It can handle neglect surprisingly well. If you've ignored the needs of your starter well past two weeks, try to revive it before abandoning it altogether. It may look dark, but if it doesn't smell bad (or different from the way it usually smells), stir it well and give it a good meal -- use two cups of flour and one cup of water. Cover it, and leave it out on your kitchen counter for 12 hours or so. If you can see lots of tiny bubbles and if it smells right, you've succeeded in reviving it. Promise that you'll never neglect it again, and pop it in the refrigerator. If you want to increase the amount of starter so you can share it with a friend or use in lots of baking, just feed it more. Just remember to not refrigerator it for at least 24 hours after you've fed it in order to give the yeast an opportunity to "work."

  24. #24
    Bretzel stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Weihnachtsfest
    Posts
    21,620
    Quote Originally Posted by blackgang
    and cover with a clean cloth.
    Fock, that's me starter out of the window, noone mentioned this before!

  25. #25
    The Pikey Hunter
    Gerbil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Roasting a Hedgehog
    Posts
    12,357
    Probably not a good idea to try this in Pattaya. God knows what sort of airborne yeasts are floating around down there.

Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •