Thread: Russia launches Ukraine invasion

Originally Posted by Troy

That's your opinion but it is not the opinion of the German government or the EU in general.

It is not just my opinion, it is basic reality. What is Russia going to do? Cut off the gas again?

Originally Posted by Troy

Indeed and the EU/German worry is that such such aggression may be sufficient for Russia to escalate the war to nuclear.

That will not happen, it is just fearmongering and giving into it is just weakness. The Russians know this, and so they attempt to prey on weak European stomachs.

Originally Posted by Troy

You may be willing to take the risk of sacrificing European lives, they are not.

Ukrainian lives are European lives too, Troy, and it will not happen, it would trigger mutually assured destruction. Do you think for one second that if Moscow nuked Berlin that the UK, French, US and China would not immediately retaliate? Because that is what would happen. Putin seems to be a self preservationist to me. He employs a food tester, during covid he made his ministers sit a ridiculously long table to protect himself.

The idea of nukes is preposterous.

Originally Posted by bsnub

It is not just my opinion, it is basic reality.

It is your opinion and it is not the opinion of either the US or European governments. They are still trying to ensure that this war does not escalate into a Russia/NATO conflict.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Do you think for one second that if Moscow nuked Berlin that the UK, French, US and China would not immediately retaliate? Because that is what would happen.

Again, this is your opinion and not that of Western Governments.

Have a read of the following White paper. It gives a good account of the nuclear rhetoric in chronological order since the start of the war.
https://www.swp-berlin.org/publicati...st_Ukraine.pdf

I quote from pp45:

Moreover, any first nuclear strike by Moscow presumably would remain a limited “warning shot” to which NATO could respond in a variety of
non-nuclear ways, US officials said. Given NATO’s conventional superiority vis-à-vis Russia, Putin was unlikely to risk further escalation, added one official

and again pp 68

US officials further emphasized that any US response to the use of nuclear weapons would “almost certainly be nonnuclear,” the goal being to “signal immediate de-escalation” but ensure international condemnation. This could mean some mix of economic, diplomatic andmilitary measures.

If you read the German view put forward since April it is quite clear that they are worried about escalation and about a retaliatory (possibly nuclear) strike. They will contribute as part of a package where others have contributed at least as much to ensure they are not the ones on the receiving end.


So, go and convince your Government to supply Abrams and stop moaning about the German contribution or European weakness.

Another view regards Germany and their apparent reticence in sending heavy armour to Ukraine....

Was talking to a lady friend in Russelsheim yesterday. She and her friends are not too keen on the idea of German tanks rolling into the Ukraine again.

Originally Posted by Troy

Have a read of the following White paper.

That paper was from way back in April, we are in a completely different place today.

Originally Posted by Troy

Moreover, any first nuclear strike by Moscow presumably would remain a limited “warning shot” to which NATO could respond in a variety of
non-nuclear ways, US officials said.

A very vague statement. A warning shot? What does that mean exactly?

I am not going to indulge in a discussion on a nuclear attack because it simply will not happen. Russia is showing its desperation by playing on EU fear. It is all the bear has.

Originally Posted by Troy

So, go and convince your Government to supply Abrams and stop moaning about the German contribution or European weakness.

I will not. The Abrams is not the right tank for Ukraine, the Leopards are. Abrams uses twice as much fuel, requires more maintenance and is much heavier, putting enormous strain on bridges and roads. Screws are being twisted as we speak, and Scholz is under tremendous pressure right now.

You are trying to frame this as US vs EU, and it is not. Scholz and Orbán the only two NATO states that opposed freeing the leopards. Both quite possibly Russian assets at this point.

Originally Posted by Norton

She and her friends are not too keen on the idea of German tanks rolling into the Ukraine again.

I think both Herman and Takeovers would disagree with her.

Originally Posted by bsnub

I think both Herman and Takeovers would disagree with her

Likely but must keep in mind the lady and her friends are Jewish.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Germany is rapidly becoming an also ran in this conflict and is far from the european leader it should be.

Ask any German if they should be a military leader and they will say no. What makes you say they should be?

Originally Posted by bsnub

That makes absolutely no difference at all. Germany is a NATO state, and Russia will do nothing about it at all.

Germany is a NATO state but this is not a NATO war. No NATO state has been attacked. As usual it is so easy to talk tough about Russia not attacking and there's nothing to worry about . . . as usual from thousands of miles away.

Originally Posted by bsnub

I think both Herman and Takeovers would disagree with her.

Possibly and possibly not. I'm not crazy about the idea either, but think they should be sent.

Originally Posted by bsnub

That paper was from way back in April, we are in a completely different place today.

It's dated September and provides data to the end of August.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Russia is showing its desperation by playing on EU fear.

The Biden administration is quoted in the report as having the same worries about escalation so not just the EU but all the Western allies are taking the Russian threat a little more seriously than you are.


However, that is not the only problem. Germany does not want to be seen as the sole supplier of large numbers of heavy armour, which could be seen as a sign of aggression. Someone else has to supply equally aggressive weaponry as well. The supply of 14 Challenger 2 is not sufficient. The US could supply the long range HIMARS rockets, it could supply aircraft or it could supply Abrams as aggressive rather than defensive weaponry and the Germans would likely follow suit with the Leopard.

Personally, I think the UN needs to make a decision, ignoring the Russian and Chinese veto, and decide if NATO should be tasked with helping Ukraine defend itself. Enough of this proxy war.

Germany is right. Unless you are operating on the fallacy that Ukraine is going to be able to 'take back' eastern Ukraine and Crimea by force, with a small tank army (pitted against the worlds largest tank army) as the spearhead of that assault- not to mention a hostile local population- it is just throwing good money after bad and wasting thousands more human lives, which hardly helps Ukraine because it has had a falling population for some years now. Defensive weaponry, fine. Tanks they have no experience in operating or maintaining, b/s.

Originally Posted by Troy

The Biden administration is quoted in the report as having the same worries about escalation so not just the EU but all the Western allies are taking the Russian threat a little more seriously than you are.

Russia is still not going to use nuclear weapons. So it is a waste even discussing it in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Troy

However, that is not the only problem. Germany does not want to be seen as the sole supplier of large numbers of heavy armour, which could be seen as a sign of aggression.

Most of the rest of the government is in favor of sending the Leopards, Scholz is doing this all on his own.

Originally Posted by Norton

The supply of 14 Challenger 2 is not sufficient.

This is the goalpost shift by Scholz, who at first said that they did not want to be the first one to send the tanks, so the UK stepped up and sent them. Then Scholz revised his comments to say it would have to be the US. Truly egregious behavior on his part.

Originally Posted by Troy

supplier of large numbers of heavy armour, which could be seen as a sign of aggression. Someone else has to supply equally aggressive weaponry as well. The supply of 14 Challenger 2 is not sufficient. The US could supply the long range HIMARS rockets, it could supply aircraft or it could supply Abrams as aggressive rather than defensive weaponry and the Germans would likely follow suit with the Leopard.

I already highlighted the reasons why the US prefers the Leopards to be given to Ukraine rather than M1s. The Abrams is not the right fit, it consumes twice as much fuel as the Leopard and requires more maintenance. Furthermore, I also previously stated that the rest of NATO does not agree with Germany and Scholz stands alone in making this decision.

Frankly, at this point, I think Poland and the other NATO states who have pledged Leopards should just disregard Germany and send them anyway. They should tell Germany to get stuffed, that they will buy their tanks from other suppliers going forward, and Poland is close to doing just that since they will not be buying any more Leopards anyway. That will definitely force Scholz's hand, as he will not want to take the hit to the German defense industry.

Originally Posted by Troy

Personally, I think the UN needs to make a decision, ignoring the Russian and Chinese veto, and decide if NATO should be tasked with helping Ukraine defend itself. Enough of this proxy war.

I fully agree with you here, Troy.

Ukraine’s deputy infrastructure minister, Vasyl Lozinskyi, has been detained and dismissed from his post for allegedly stealing $400,000 (£320,000) intended for purchasing aid, including generators, according to Ukraine’s state anti-corruption detectives and prosecutors.

After the news emerged, Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, vowed that the old ways of corruption would not return to Ukraine.

“I want this to be clear: there will be no return to what used to be in the past, to the way various people close to state institutions or those who spent their entire lives chasing a chair [a state position] used to live,” said Zelenskiy in his nightly address on Sunday without specifically mentioning the case.

Lozinskyi is said to have colluded with contractors to inflate the price of generators and siphoned off part of the difference, according to Ukraine’s anti-corruption bodies. Other national and regional officials are also said to have been involved. Over summer, the Ukrainian government allocated 1.68bn hryvnia (approximately £36.7m) for goods and technology that would help provide alternative sources of energy, water and heat for its population during winter.

The goods were bought to prepare Ukraine in case Russia targeted its energy infrastructure – which it has done on a regular basis, starting in September.

Lozinskyi was detained on Saturday by anti-corruption investigators. In a statement, they said they found $38,000 in cash in Lozinskyi’s office and published a picture of piles of dollar and hryvnia notes. On Sunday, Lozinskyi was sacked from the government. He has made no comment on the allegations.

Before the war, corruption scandals were an almost daily feature of Ukrainian political life. The country was ranked 122 out of 180 by Transparency International in 2021, making it one of the world’s most corrupt countries. The EU has made anti-corruption reforms one of the key requirements for Ukraine gaining EU membership.

Since the war, there have been far fewer known instances of corruption as society focused on the wartime effort. But journalists have returned to scrutinising the elites in recent months.

Pavlo Halimon, deputy head of Zelenskiy’s party – named after his TV show, Servant of the People – was also dismissed on Monday because of corruption allegations, which he has not responded to. Ukrainian news site Ukrainska Pravda published an investigation on Monday morning into his purchase of a Kyiv property for more than his declared means. The head of Zelenskiy’s party, Davyd Arakhamia, called for the matter to be investigated and dismissed Hamilon, saying his actions contradicted the values of the party.

“If you are an [MP] and have a few extra million hryvnias, then you should help your country. This is your duty,” said Arakhamia.

Ukraine’s defence minister, Oleksiy Reznikov, also found himself in the spotlight this week after another Ukrainian publication, ZN.UA, published an investigation into food procurement by the defence ministry. It claimed that food contracts for the army were being inflated. But Reznikov has denied the claims and has insisted a parliamentary committee be established to investigate. According to Reznikov, the price difference can be explained, in part, by deliveries to frontline areas and in part because different suppliers have different specialities.

Zelenskiy, who was elected on a pledge to change the way Ukraine was governed in 2019, also said in his nightly speech on Sunday there would be an announcement on the issue of corruption this week.

“This week will be the time for appropriate decisions,” Zelenskiy said. “The decisions have already been prepared. I do not want to make them public at this time, but it will all be fair.”

Reuters contributed to this report

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/23/ukraine-deputy-minister-sacked-for-alleged-theft-of-400000

Igor Girkin, a former Russian commander, explained on Sunday why Russian President Vladimir Putin's success in Ukraine is "impossible" after nearly 11 months of combat.

Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, aiming for a quick victory against his Eastern European neighbor, widely perceived as having a smaller, less capable military than Moscow. However, Ukraine responded with a stronger-than-expected defense effort that has been bolstered by Western military aid, blunting Russian military gains.

Putin's invasion exposed weaknesses within Moscow's military, opening up opportunity for Ukraine to launch its own counteroffensive in the fall. During these counteroffensives, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zeleknsky's troops retook thousands of square miles of formerly occupied territory—as Putin increasingly relies on the Wagner Group, a Russian paramilitary unit, to achieve new victories, such as in the battle for Soledar earlier this month.

However, the Biden administration has pushed back on Russia's assertions that it now fully controls Soledar. During a telephone briefing last week, John Kirby, National Security Council coordinator for Strategic Communications at the White House, said that "we do not assess that [the Russians] have actually unilaterally taken both cities," referring to Soledar and Bakhmut.

Girkin, who rose to notoriety for his military role in the 2014 annexation of Crimea, revealed in a Telegram post on Sunday the top factor inhibiting Russian success in Ukraine.
The former Russian commander pointed to low morale among Putin's troops as making success "impossible" for the Russian leader.

"The majority of mobilized (and most of the cadre) servicemen of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation lack the motivation to sacrifice when conducting hostilities against the Armed Forces of Ukraine, since the goals of the war are not only not explained by the authorities, but even not officially defined at all," Girkin wrote.


Although Girkin, a self-described Russian nationalist, does not oppose the Ukraine war, he has grown increasingly critical of Kremlin leadership in recent months as the war stagnates. He added that, because Russia has officially classified the invasion as a "special military operation" rather than a war, leaders are limited in their disciplinary actions.

He explained Russia can deploy elite units for successful attacks "only in very narrow, limited areas," but a larger offensive would require numerical and technical superiority over Ukraine. Still, he said these conditions are "not a guarantee" when faced with "the most persistent and professional" Ukrainian troops.

Due to low morale, an offensive could only be "saved" by Ukrainian troops being in an even worse state, according to Girkin.

"Faced with persistent and skillful enemy resistance, such an offensive will inevitably die out due to the impossibility of the command to force its troops to go into battle with the necessary degree of military prowess," he wrote.

Military Experts Point to Low Morale for Russian Failures

Girkin is not the only expert to attribute low morale to Russia's failure to achieve substantial goals in Ukraine. Morale was seen as a key weakness among Russian troops for months, and has only been made worse by the winter.

"The weather itself is likely to see an increase in rainfall, wind speed and snowfall. Each of these will provide additional challenges to the already low morale of Russian forces, but also present problems for kit maintenance," the United Kingdom's Defense Ministry said in November.

The Institute for the Study of War (ISW), a U.S.-based think think, also assessed last November that morale among Russian troops was "exceedingly low."

"Significant losses on the battlefield, mobilization to the front lines without proper training, and poor supplies have led to cases of desertion," the ISW wrote.

Newsweek reached out to the Russian Ministry of Defense for comment.

https://www.newsweek.com/ex-russian-...ssible-1775576

Approximately just one-fifth of the former Russian prisoners recruited to fight against Ukraine as part of the Wagner Group remain, according to a Russian journalist.

Olga Romanova, head of the Rus Seated charity foundation, said in a YouTube video published by the My Russian Rights project that the private military company (PMC) headed by Russian financier and longtime Vladimir Putin ally Yevgeny Prigozhin had recruited in the range of 42,000 to 43,000 prisoners by the end of last year.

That tally has most likely surpassed 50,000 fighters in the present state of the war, she said, according to a translation from news outlet Meduza. But of those approximate 50,000 soldiers, only "10,000 are fighting at the front, because all the rest are either killed...or missing, or deserted, or surrendered."

She also suggested that Prigozhin does not keep statistics on missing or defected prisoners, instead writing off such soldiers as deceased whether or not it's factual.

Meduza reported on Friday about a woman who received an empty coffin from the Wagner Group, though she was unaware it was empty at the time.

Following a burial service for her husband this winter, the woman—cited by the alias of Angelina—told media outlet TV Rain, or Dozhd as it is known in Russian, that she found out her husband was still alive and fighting in Ukraine.

The woman also said she found out her husband, who had been serving a sentence in an unspecified Russian penal colony, was fighting for the Wagner Group only because the relative of another convict had informed her.

She added that she doubted her husband joined the cause voluntarily because "he treated Ukraine well."

After beginning his assignment in the fall, the woman said her husband stopped communicating by the winter. She later received a call from the Wagner Group itself, informing her that her husband was allegedly killed in the Bakhmut region of Ukraine.

Her family was later given a closed zinc coffin, medals, a certificate of honor and a death certificate.

"They told us that there was no need to open the coffin, because before sending [fighters to the war], they take some DNA, and when the corpses are found, they compare them," said the woman. "They told us that they gave us a 100 percent guarantee that it is him."

Claims of a mostly depleted force comprised of prisoners and mercenaries accompany new reports of tension between Prigozhin and Putin, due to the group not living up to its advertised military prowess.

The Institute for the Study of War (ISW) said Prigozhin's "star has begun to set" after failed promises of capturing the Donetsk city of Bakhmut.

"Prigozhin's comments reflect a cowboy approach to war that is unsuited to the development and maintenance of an effective large-scale and disciplined modern military," ISW reported in one assessment.

Prigozhin has even taken matters into his own hands to dispute a statement on Friday from White House national security spokesman John Kirby that the Wagner Group had been designated a "transnational criminal organization."

"Could you please clarify what crime was committed by PMC Wagner," Prigozhin wrote in a short letter in both English and Russian that was shared on his Telegram social media channel.

Newsweek reached out to the Russian Foreign Ministry for comment.

https://www.newsweek.com/most-wagner...battle-1775890

• The deputy head of Ukraine’s presidential office, Kyrylo Tymoshenko, said on Tuesday he had asked President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on Monday to relieve him of his duties. The move comes amid a corruption scandal which saw Infrastructure deputy Vasyl Lozinskyi sacked and detained for an alleged theft of $400,000 from the winter aid budget. Tymoshenko, 33, had been the deputy head of presidential office since 2019, overseeing regions and regional policies. He also worked with Zelenskiy during his election campaign, overseeing media and creative content.

• Ukraine’s deputy defence minister Vyacheslav Shapovalov, responsible for supplying troops with food and equipment, has also resigned, citing “media accusations” of corruption that he and the ministry say are baseless. A statement on the defence ministry’s website said Shapovalov’s resignation was “a worthy deed” that would help retain trust in the ministry

• Deputy prosecutor general Oleksiy Symonenko has also been removed from his post, according to the prosecutor general’s office.

• Ukrainian presidential adviser, Mykhailo Podolyak, has said today’s personnel shakeup showed Zelenskiy was reacting to a “key public demand” that justice should apply to everyone. “Zelenskiy’s personnel decisions testify to the key priorities of the state. The president sees and hears society. And he directly responds to a key public demand – justice for all”.

• Zelenskiy had said on Monday that changes would be announced imminently in the government, the regions and in the security forces after allegations of corruption nearly a year into Russia’s invasion.

• Germany has now received Poland’s official request to re-export Leopard tanks to Ukraine, Polish defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak said.

• The final decision on whether Germany will give permission will be taken at the chancellery in Berlin, a senior official at the foreign ministry said on Tuesday. “At the end of the day, the decision will obviously be taken at the chancellery, in consensus by the government,” Tobias Lindner, state secretary at the foreign ministry, said at a defence conference in Berlin.

• Nato secretary general Jens Stoltenberg is confident the alliance will find a solution soon, he said after meeting Germany’s defence minister on Tuesday. “At this pivotal moment in the war, we must provide heavier and more advanced systems to Ukraine, and we must do it faster,” Stoltenberg said.

• New German defence minister Boris Pistorius said there was no disunity among allies about sending heavy battle tanks to Ukraine and said that Berlin would act quickly if there was a positive decision to do so. However, he stressed that Nato must not become a party to the war in Ukraine.

• German defence group Rheinmetall could deliver 139 Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine if required, a spokesperson for the company told media group RND on Monday.

• The Kremlin warned Monday that the people of Ukraine will “pay the price” if the west decides to send tanks to support Kyiv. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said the splits in Europe over whether to provide tanks to Kyiv showed there was increasing “nervousness” within the Nato alliance. Peskov also dismissed Washington’s announcement that it was planning to impose sanctions on the Russian private mercenary Wagner Group.

• Finland’s foreign minister Pekka Haavisto has signalled a possible pause in discussions with Turkey over Finnish ambitions to join Nato alongside Sweden, which he says is due to the pressure of Turkey’s forthcoming election.

• The EU’s foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell, outlined the EU’s new military aid package to Ukraine worth €500m, after the bloc’s 27 foreign ministers met in Brussels on Monday. The package was approved along with a further €45m for the EU’s military training mission for Ukraine. Hungary’s foreign minister, Péter Szijjártó, said his country would not block the EU move.

• Russia’s ambassador to Estonia, Vladimir Lipaev, has accused the west of arming the Baltic state with weapons that could strike at St Petersburg.

• Russian forces continue to “endure operational deadlock and heavy casualties”, according to the UK Ministry of Defence. An MoD intelligence update on Monday also said new disciplinary measures introduced by Valery Gerasimov, Russia’s chief of the general staff and newly appointed commander in Ukraine, had been met with “sceptical feedback”, in particular in response to the decision to ban soldiers from wearing beards.

• Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, has said Moscow was willing to negotiate with Ukraine in the early months of the war but the US and other western nations advised Kyiv against it. Lavrov was speaking during his visit to South Africa on Monday, where he met with the foreign minister, Naledi Pandor, a month before the South African military is set to host a joint military exercise with Russia and China on its east coast. On Tuesday Lavrov visited Eswatini.

• Germany began Monday to move its Patriot air defence systems into Polish territory, close to the Ukrainian border, where they will be deployed to prevent stray missile strikes. Berlin’s offer to deploy three of its Patriot units in Poland came after two men were killed by a stray Ukrainian missile that struck the Polish village of Przewodow in November.

• Andrey Medvedev, a former commander of Russia’s Wagner mercenary group who recently fled to Norway, has been apprehended by police, he told the Guardian on Monday. Medvedev’s Norwegian lawyer, Brynjulf Risnes, said that the police decided to apprehend Medvedev on Sunday evening after a “strong disagreement” with the former Wagner soldier over living conditions at the safe house where he had been living since he arrived in Norway.
• https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...f-the-invasion

"Could you please clarify what crime was committed by PMC Wagner," Prigozhin wrote in a short letter in both English and Russian that was shared on his Telegram social media channel.

He should narrow it down to the country.

Germany 'to send Leopard tanks to Ukraine'

Germany has caved to international pressure and will send a company of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reported.


The federal government will also grant the necessary licenses to allow other allies to send Ukraine the tanks, sources told the magazine.


The report came after it emerged that the US was "leaning toward" sending a significant number of Abrams M1 tanks to Ukraine, with an announcement on the deliveries is expected to come as soon as this week.


Ukraine says heavily armoured Western battle tanks would give its troops more mobility and protection ahead of a new Russian offensive that Kyiv expects in the near future. They could also help Ukraine retake some of the territory that has fallen to Russia.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/24/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-leopard-tanks-germany-tymoshenko/

Originally Posted by malmomike77

Germany has caved to international pressure and will send a company of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reported.

Interesting the media put it in those terms. Other reports suggest the US have relented and will send ~30 Abrams tanks to Ukraine and this allows the German government to release the export of Leopard 2 tanks.

Either way, a boost for the Ukraine forces if they manage to get Western MBTs onto the battlefield. They will still have to use them wisely, a lot more wisely that the Russians have used theirs so far.

An accelerated training program could get them ready for a major offensive in March/April.

Well lets see what the Russian response is.

Dont know what that has to do with the topic in hand. Russian population and birth rate has been declining since 2015 and thats without the numbers currently fleeing. The only thing increasing in Russia at the moment is the overall death rate.

100 Leopard tanks in 12 countries are standing by for Germany's go-ahead to be sent to Ukraine, official says


Twelve countries are waiting on Germany's go-ahead to send around 100 Leopard tanks to Ukraine, a senior Ukrainian official told ABC News on Monday.

International pressure has grown on German's Chancellor Olaf Scholz to grant permission to export the much-sought-after German battle tanks to Ukraine.

The countries involved agreed to contribute at a summit in Germany on Friday, the unnamed official told ABC News.

But Germany has the right to block the re-export of its tanks, and Scholz has named several conditions — including the US also sending tanks — before signaling it would be willing to allow the transfer.

Poland and Finland have said openly they are readying to send their tanks, but before Friday's meeting it was unclear how many countries would join them.

Lithuania's Defense Minister Arvydas Anusauskas told Reuters that he estimated the pledges would be at least 100.

On Sunday, Germany's Foreign Minister Anna Baerbock said that she "would not stand in the way" of the transfer if Poland makes a formal request, as the BBC reported. But it was unclear whether Scholz, at that point, agreed.

Poland's Defense Minister Mariusz Bɫaszczak tweeted on Tuesday that an official request to transfer the tanks had been sent.

In an interview with German TV station ARD, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy spoke of the impact on morale the tanks would have even if they represent only a small portion of the tanks that Russia is able to field.

"When they have a thousand tanks, any country's decision to give us 10, 20 or 50 tanks can solve the problem," he told the station, per Ukrainska Pradva's translation.

"They do only one very important thing – they motivate our soldiers to fight for their own values. Because they show that the whole world is with you," he said, while criticizing the reported German position of waiting for the US to move first.

At the same time, the UK's decision to send 14 of its Challenger tanks — viewed as a mostly symbolic effort to get other countries moving — helped the diplomatic process, the unnamed Ukrainian official told ABC News.

Prior to Poland's request, the debate has proceeded along the lines of informal diplomatic enquiries.

But those enquiries from Poland have ramped up, with the country's Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki indicating last week that if Germany was unwilling to accede to the request, Poland might send them anyway.

"Consent is a secondary issue here," he told Polish radio station PolskiRadio24. "We will either get this agreement quickly, or we will do the right thing ourselves."

Germany is not alone in its stance. Switzerland has also opposed multiple requests from Ukraine's allies to re-export its munitions — including one request from Germany to send 35mm ammunition, as Reuters reported.

Russia has sought to capitalize on the disagreements, portraying them as evidence of weakness within the European pro-Ukrainian alliance.

https://www.businessinsider.com/100-...-scholz-2023-1

Originally Posted by bsnub

Russia has sought to capitalize on the disagreements, portraying them as evidence of weakness within the European pro-Ukrainian alliance.

This 'weakness' has helped Ukraine kick Russian arse - the only evidence we need is Russian casualties and desperate actions

Expect the Leopards will be in battle zone in about 3 months. The Abrams about 7 months.

Originally Posted by bsnub

In an interview with German TV station ARD, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy spoke of the impact on morale the tanks would have even if they represent only a small portion of the tanks that Russia is able to field.

"When they have a thousand tanks, any country's decision to give us 10, 20 or 50 tanks can solve the problem," he told the station, per Ukrainska Pradva's translation.

No question the Leopards are superior to Russian tanks. Numbers count so it remains to be seen how much difference the Leopards will do.