US will share nuclear submarine technology with Australia in new defense partnership

**malmomike77** · 23-09-2021, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Switch

Factually incorrect. The US shifted political and military focus to the Pacific region since the era.y days of the first Obam administration. Western allies followed suit, either directly or in support of operations elsewhere.

Well, we don't agree, but thats OK.

Here's an article by Rand (others are available) that lays out some of the issues the US faces, the major one being that the 98' VFA with the Philippines doesn't really make up of the logistical chasm generated by them leaving in 92', i rather think the Chinks would not have been so bold in SCS if the US was still permanently based there. The US has never really replaced that regional base.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/02/if-us-forces-have-to-leave-the-philippines-then-what.html

Originally Posted by Switch

Australian deal with the French has taken so long, it has been overtaken by technology.

That is not correct, the so called more modern tech was available at the time but the US did not want to get involved, its a big thing sharing nuclear tech, even with an allied power. The French had offered nuc tech but theirs are not sealed for life units and require refuelling which has problems. And finally, you are right about the french programme cost growth, imagine that scenario when applied to a nuclear build.

**HermantheGerman** · 23-09-2021, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by malmomike77

That is not correct, the so called more modern tech was available at the time but the US did not want to get involved, its a big thing sharing nuclear tech, even with an allied power. The French had offered nuc tech but theirs are not sealed for life units and require refuelling which has problems. And finally, you are right about the french programme cost growth, imagine that scenario when applied to a nuclear build.

That is not correct again, the OZ did not want nuke at that time.

**harrybarracuda** · 23-09-2021, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by lom

he said, as if he knew everything about Australian unions..

Given the unions actually created the Labour Party, fuck yeah.

**HermantheGerman** · 23-09-2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Gosh a bunch of lefties supporting the chinkies, there's a surprise.

The ocean is already fucked. We don't need anymore Yankee nuke (or any) garbage in OUR oceans.

**malmomike77** · 23-09-2021, 12:48 PM

^^^ i didn't say that, Switch said they signed for old tech, i was pointing out that they had explored Nuclear options with France but there are reasons that at the time they didn't go for it but carry on.

**sabang** · 23-09-2021, 01:06 PM

Australia's new nuclear submarine fleet is set to prove a test for China in an area of naval warfare the rising superpower lags the West.
While China has been rapidly modernising and expanding its navy, it remains behind the US in anti-submarine capability, defence expert Marcus Hellyer says.
"The US has a significant advantage over China in submarine development," Dr Hellyer, of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said.
"Chinese submarines are at least a generation behind American ones.
"Also in anti-submarine warfare, the US and other western nations have traditionally led China."

Under the new AUKUS agreement, Australia will acquire nuclear-powered submarines from the US.
They are expected to be deployed in waters contested by China - such as the South China Sea and Taiwan Strait - when they enter service - expected to be by 2040.

Powered by a nuclear reactor, the vessels can remain beneath the water indefinitely, making them harder to detect.
But Dr Hellyer told nine.com.au that China is will be ramping up its anti-submarine forces before the Australian subs hit the water.

In addition to its current anti-submarine surface vessels and aircraft, China is also eyeing new underwater technology.
"They are increasingly looking at drones and sensors under the water," Dr Hellyer said.
The Chinese military already has underwater acoustic sensors that can track submarines in the strategically vital waters near the Taiwan Strait, parts of the South China Sea and at the Chinese navy's submarine base on Hainan Island.
Prime Minister Scott Morrison says Australia has received "overwhelming support" from the US and UK for its participation to acquire nuclear submarines under the AUKUS defence pact.

Mr Morrison was speaking from Washington after he met key officials from the Biden Administration and leading US politicians. "We received overwhelming support when it came to Australia moving ahead to establish a nuclear submarine fleet for Australia, to ensure that we could contribute to the peace [

] and stability [

] of the Indo-Pacific," Mr Morrison said.

Australian nuclear submarines can test China's 'weak spot' (msn.com)

**sabang** · 23-09-2021, 01:14 PM

French envoy to return to US but no word on Australian counterpart (msn.com)

**Neverna** · 23-09-2021, 02:30 PM

I loved BoJo's comment yesterday.

**harrybarracuda** · 23-09-2021, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

The ocean is already fucked. We don't need anymore Yankee nuke (or any) garbage in OUR oceans.

"Nucular" is cleaner than Diesel.

**harrybarracuda** · 23-09-2021, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

French envoy to return to US but no word on Australian counterpart (msn.com)

The frogs reckon they are going to send the convicts the bill anyway.

Good luck with that.

**harrybarracuda** · 23-09-2021, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

we could contribute to the peace [

] and stability [

] of the Indo-Pacific," Mr Morrison said.

Yeah 'coz the chinkies nicking everyone's fish, building on other peoples' islands, invading other peoples' air space & maritime boundaries and exploring for other peoples' oil & gas does that, doesn't it.

**Switch** · 23-09-2021, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by malmomike77

Well, we don't agree, but thats OK.

Here's an article by Rand (others are available) that lays out some of the issues the US faces, the major one being that the 98' VFA with the Philippines doesn't really make up of the logistical chasm generated by them leaving in 92', i rather think the Chinks would not have been so bold in SCS if the US was still permanently based there. The US has never really replaced that regional base.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/02/if-us-forces-have-to-leave-the-philippines-then-what.html

That is not correct, the so called more modern tech was available at the time but the US did not want to get involved, its a big thing sharing nuclear tech, even with an allied power. The French had offered nuc tech but theirs are not sealed for life units and require refuelling which has problems. And finally, you are right about the french programme cost growth, imagine that scenario when applied to a nuclear build.

Introducing the VFA agreement in this argument is a red herring. Du30 has since signed off on it anyway.

Nuclear powered vessels may have been available when the original order was placed. Now it available to the Australian who have just woken up to the fact that it’s better than diesel electric. Diesel subs are now obsolescent.

**OhOh** · 23-09-2021, 10:13 PM

What will the world look like by the time our subs are launched?

By Peter Dawson Sep 21, 2021

Attachment 76186

"By the time Australia’s nuclear-powered submarines are ready, the world will have seen some dramatic economic realignments, according to predictions of GDP by country. If all goes well, our new nuclear-powered submarines look to be coming off the production line around the early 2040s, so would be ready to help the USA to drive back China at least by 2050. It is interesting to consider how the world’s economies are expected line up at that time.

Projections of GDP by country (by PwC in Purchasing Power Parity rankings) show major re-alignments.

Broadly speaking, the E7 economies (Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Russia and Turkey) will widen their lead over the G7 (Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US).
By 2050 the E7 share of world GDP is projected at 50 per cent while the G7 declines to just over 20 per cent.

The EU will be barely 10 per cent. Looking to the South-East Asian region, by 2030 Indonesia has risen to fifth place while Australia is at 23rd.

By 2050 the three giant economies are China, India and the USA, with Indonesia coming in fourth place and Australia at 28th in the world (or around 25 per cent of Indonesia’s GDP).

The Chinese economy will be 172 per cent of the USA’s and 125 per cent of India’s. Also, by 2050, the Philippines, Vietnam and Bangladesh will have greater GDP numbers than Australia’s, with Malaysia and Thailand not far behind.

It would surely be fanciful to suggest that these economic realignments will not bring about changed trade and investment patterns as well as power relationships. The preponderance of Asian powers — three of the top four — would seem, unavoidably, to bring about changes in the style and substance of governance.

This is by no means to disparage the USA, which will remain a formidable economic and military power, but to suggest that, in future decades, its operations will need to be conducted in a changed global environment, in which its great power competitor, China, has a large economic advantage.

It seems unfortunate, to say the least, that, in conducting the submarine deal, the Australian government has, inadvertently, offended our nearest neighbour (and set to be the world’s fourth-biggest economy by 2050), Indonesia.

At four times the size of the Australian economy by 2050 our near neighbour would seem to offer very large opportunities in terms of trade and investment, not to mention the other countries mentioned above.

They may also be less than impressed by Australia’s anxious embrace of its Anglophone brethren, the USA and the UK."

What will the world look like by the time our subs are launched? - Pearls and Irritations

I'm sure the USUKA politicians, signing off on the deal, will be taken care of by their masters.

**sabang** · 24-09-2021, 03:44 AM

Two quite respected 'senior statesman' figures here in Oz have come out vociferously against this deal.

Paul Keating, ex PM 1991-96, played a major role in sponsoring fledgling but growing trade ties with China. His catchcry- Australia should be seeking security in the region, not from the region. He laments the economic cost, in terms of future trade opportunities in Asia, also the loss of autonomy & Sovereignty.

There's incoherence at the heart of AUKUS, but can Labor do any better? (crikey.com.au)

Vice Admiral Chris Ritchie, ex head of our defence forces, expressed similar concerns, but with more of a focus on our immediate neighbour- Indonesia. They are thoroughly pissed off, and he points out that their economy will be 4-6 times the size of Australia by mid century. Wanna slice of that pie? Also, that we are now a de facto extension of US foreign policy, with little national autonomy left in terms of foreign policy &/or military policy.

I hope there are some Ministers in this Morrison government that can play nice (haven't noticed it though), because the astronomic cost of this exercise will likely still be a fraction of the loss in terms of opportunity cost.

Are we part of the Asian region, or an Anglo outpost against it? Our future prosperity depends on how we answer that question, or how it is perceived we do.

**havnfun** · 24-09-2021, 03:58 AM

Bloody Aussies, A penile colony

**Saint Willy** · 24-09-2021, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

Indonesia. They are thoroughly pissed off,

yeah,nah they are not.

**panama hat** · 24-09-2021, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

Are we part of the Asian region, or an Anglo outpost against it? Our future prosperity depends on how we answer that question, or how it is perceived we do.

Australia is forever trying to define itself. I remember in the 80s there was this big debate about being part of Asia or not . . . then the hand-wringing about 'multiculturalism'.

The white tribe of Asia isn't faring too well in the self-diagnosis area.

Originally Posted by malmomike77

That is not correct

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

That is not correct again, the OZ did not want nuke at that time.

Why that is so difficult to understand . . . the anti-nuclear movement in Australia has always been quite strong and widespread, less so now

**sabang** · 24-09-2021, 04:28 AM

^^ Waddya mean, some of their senior government people have been talking of an arms race!

**havnfun** · 24-09-2021, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by panama hat

Australia is forever trying to define itself. I remember in the 80s there was this big debate about being part of Asia or not . . . then the hand-wringing about 'multiculturalism'.

The white tribe of Asia isn't faring too well in the self-diagnosis area.

In 1987, I went to the celebrations in Sydney Harbour to see the Endevor, we all just got pissed and hooked up with some French chicks,LOL

**sabang** · 24-09-2021, 04:33 AM

I was overlooking you, from my apartment in Kirribilli! What a great time to have a harborside pad there.

**panama hat** · 24-09-2021, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

I was overlooking you, from my apartment in Kirribilli! What a great time to have a harborside pad there.

Nice . . . but north of the bridge was/is always pretentious . . . says the boy from Vaucluse. Pfffft

**Saint Willy** · 24-09-2021, 05:33 AM

Anyone north of Albury …

**havnfun** · 24-09-2021, 05:40 AM

Yeah All be ya donga

**panama hat** · 24-09-2021, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Saint Willy

Anyone north of Albury …

Cockroach

**OhOh** · 24-09-2021, 09:58 AM

OZ could skip the wait by renting the subs/trained crew.

Place an OZ "commander" in the newly installed No.1 Chair in his cabin, safely guarded by "his" security team. With his OZ flag ready to raise.

Install the boats with the required defensive missile systems in the, the Chinese run port.

It would certainly stop any digs at the OZ PM.

Until the monthly invoices arrive for the hardware and onboard female/male/bi/undecided/easily induced, security squad.

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