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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    India maybe only because of China, but that's be land-based. Indonesia? Give it a blanket societal/financial and mentality change and maybe in 50 years
    India has the nuclear deterrent already, 150 vessels in the navy, and a nuclear powered submarine. It already has a submarine with ballistic missile capability.

  2. #177
    Thailand Expat panama hat's Avatar
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    Right ...

  3. #178
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    China doesn't care about acquisition of territory, It cares about access to markets and maintaining its economic power, the SCS, Taiwan and Japan issues are a smokescreen. The last two decades during which the US and West fell asleep at the wheel with fighting a few rag heads has been a gift to China. They have sat back watching the West and NATO get caught up in skirmish after skirmish, draining valuable resources and drawing attention away from what China has been doing in full view of the world.


    China is playing the long game, the West under the US have been occupied with short termism and no strategic plan, rushing around putting out bushfires.


    China has used this time to launder the cash its economic miracle has delivered and has offered this largesse to any country that will take it, and as much of it as they can offload. That cash has bought countries and infrastructure across the globe through debt. Some pay the loan interest and others have to hand over assets because they can't repay the loans that their dictators have sold the country out for, in exchange for a chunk of change in a ME or Swiss bank account. Either way China is there to stay and the country is obligated to it. This means it can continue to exploit that foothold either strategically or economically.


    The Belt and road initiative to ensure economic motorway and shipping lanes for goods and a foothold in all the countries it touches. Once in they are never out. By the time the West reacts its too late and it will prove almost impossible from either a cost or Diplomatic perspective to unpick what China is doing. The cost to get in is cheap for China.


    South China Seas. Whilst the West and US have been pre-occupied over the last three decades China has not even quietly set about putting in place the next distraction for the West, knowing full well that the Muslim skirmishes would only last so long. So they make territorial incursions against neighbours in the region, get them all worked up without really firing a shot in anger. Sprout an Island which sits there as a “pointer” for things to come with no real strategic import aside from having the desired effect of worrying its neighbours as to what is next and finally getting neighbours and SE Asia worked up enough to call in the US and allies. This just at the moment when there was a possibility that the US and allies were running out of skirmishes to keep them and their money occupied and off the economic war.


    China is already setting up its strategy for the next economic battlefield, Space. The West are pussy footing about with the odd trophy project and doing so as individual countries again with no strategy. China is using Mars missions and Space station to develop its capability to exploit space. By the time the West has realised it will be a distant second in space too.


    Beijing are laughing, as was evidenced by the AUKUS deal, they love it. Its sowed further disharmony and ensured the US and allies are now firmly focussed on fighting another war, this time in the SCS. China won't start a war, it will pick at the scab in a manner designed to tie the US and Allies to the region whilst it continues to go about its economic business as it has over the past two decades. The funds it uses in keeping the West occupied are a drop in the ocean, the West is struggling under an ever increasing debt burden which sees it cut costs domestically on its people and infrastructure whilst it continues to fund arcane military equipment, all in the name of a war that doesn't exist.


    China is playing chess, it may not have invented the game but it is a Grand Master, the West are 16 moves behind and have been for two to three decades. Say what you like about China, I am no fan but they have a vision. China has followed and continued to develop its vision and as a single country they have one voice to deliver and enforce the message. The West has lacked leadership and it appears it continues to do so, getting distracted by smoke and mirrors China deploys.

    Another lost decade and trillions wasted coming up.

  4. #179
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    China doesn't care about acquisition of territory
    You're right. If it can suck it dry without having to invade, it would be perfectly content.

  5. #180
    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    I find that fact that China is bankrolling Oz with their insatiable lust for Iron Ore and thus indirectly funding the Sub build deliciously ironic
    Same as what the west have done for China in the last 40 years ?

    Oh yes
    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    a Bloomberg commentator this evening quoted the Global Times as suggesting that Australia is the weak link in the chain and will quickly suffer severe punishment for supporting the US..
    I hear that the AUS-EU trade negotiations has been put on hold.

    Reason: Doesn't make sense to negotiate treaties with countries who'll break them, when they feel like it.

    Ouch

    Lucky for AUS that they have the US to lean on in such difficult times.



    No more aussie wine for me then

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by helge View Post
    Not just one of... They have a say. I think you know
    No they do not, not in the contract. But as a political mouthpiece of course they will

    Quote Originally Posted by helge View Post
    Indirectly

    Guess you haven't heard about some initiative regarding the Pacific,that the EU incl France was working on

    Would it have been so difficult to include France in that Pacific Club ?

    They do have interests there

    Yes it would.

    Yanks want that deal for themselves.

    They need it
    You sound as upset as the EU poor chap

  7. #182
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    China doesn't care about acquisition of territory
    ...*cough* the Indians have suffered multiple border incursions and loss of territory to expansionist China; the South China Sea has been claimed in nearly its entirety by expansionist China; Japanese islands near Taiwan have been subject to incursions from the Chinese navy; Taiwan's borders are regularly subjected to provocations amid loud Chinese claims of sovereignty...no wonder the Russians regard with trepidation their empty East and land-hungry Chinese next door...it's only a matter of time before China finds a use for its huge and growing armed forces...
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  8. #183
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    Nonsense TC, I cannot remember any major world empire in history that has been so little expansionist, and unaggressive. Still got dem reds unda da bed i see.

    Incidentally, the USA and UN recognise Chinas claim to Sovereignty over Taiwan- the 'renegade province'. Border spats with India- trifling frankly.

  9. #184
    Thailand Expat panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    I cannot remember any major world empire in history that has been so little expansionist, and unaggressive.
    Quite untrue. Tibet, India, Vietnam, Burma, Soviet Union etc etc etc



    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Incidentally, the USA and UN recognise Chinas claim to Sovereignty over Taiwan
    Also untrue. You're referring to Ban's idiocy, but even then - nope. Taiwan was 'kicked out' of the UN and as it doesn't see itself as being part of China the UN resolution is both contradictory and toothless.

    Taiwan has diplomatic relations with many countries and 14 direct and sole ambassadorial/consular relations.

    It's interesting that many who chastise and ridicule the UN on most everything suddenly give it credence on the existence of a country

  10. #185
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    Quite untrue.
    No PH- very untrue.

    Tibet & Burma- Major world empires??

    Russia- unexpansionist? Ever heard of the Iron Curtain?

    India- u'mmm, the Mughals. Countless millions died in "Indian" wars, long before the Raj.

    I repeat-

    I cannot remember any major world empire in history that has been so little expansionist, and unaggressive.

    The USA does not diplomatically recognise Taiwan as being anything but a part of China PH. Of course what you say and what you do are not necessarily the same.

  11. #186
    Thailand Expat VocalNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post

    Taiwan has diplomatic relations with many countries and 14 direct and sole ambassadorial/consular relations.
    Correct but mostly small island nations. Everywhere else they mostly have Trade Missions/representatives.

  12. #187
    Thailand Expat panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Tibet & Burma- Major world empires??
    I think something was lost in comprehension on your side or clarity on mine. Of course that's not true. They have, however, been invaded/attacked militarily by China -that was the point.



    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Russia- unexpansionist? Ever heard of the Iron Curtain?
    Yea, nah. It wasn't me. It's your comprehension. Russia?



    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    India- u'mmm, the Mughals. Countless millions died in "Indian" wars, long before the Raj.
    So far beyond the point that it's laughable.

    Why are you so Klondyke-like at times?



    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    Correct but mostly small island nations. Everywhere else they mostly have Trade Missions/representatives.
    True, but it still makes them an independent country. Years ago I was in HK and had to go to Taiwan from there - the local trade mission did the trick.
    My brother worked at the 'trade mission' in Taipei. It's such a charade and China looks the fool because of it. Embassies - noooooooooo. Trade missions - ok, why not

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    China doesn't care about acquisition of territory
    That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Nonsense TC
    Except that it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Russia- unexpansionist? Ever heard of the Iron Curtain?
    That is just deliberate smoke and mirrors on your part. But then again, you are a grovelling apologist, so it is hardly a surprise. The iron curtain was the reference to the Warsaw Pact, which was a response to the NATO defensive pact. In fact, Russia invaded and subjugated many eastern European nations whenever they felt like it
    Last edited by bsnub; 22-09-2021 at 04:59 PM.

  14. #189
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Why are you so Klondyke-like at times?
    ......

  15. #190
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    Back on topic

    The Frenchie subs were old tech, late, triple the original price and the Oz produced content was being reduced from c90% to less than 50% - seems like the Frenchies are getting upset over being uncompetitive, now where else does the remind us of

  16. #191
    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    The Frenchie subs were old tech
    Ordered by AUS.

    Maybe they are fond of classics.

  17. #192
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    ^ keep up the solidarity defence but quite frankly the Aussies were right to ditch the French deal and would have been negligent not to have. Still it is quite amusing a Dane, who's country was lets face it last cutting edge militarily c900 years ago pontificating on behalf of the French

  18. #193
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    Annnnnnyyyyway. The Americans will have a little chat with the Frenchies, a little s'embrasser for micron and a quick feel up of some grannie and all will be well in the world of NATO, as long as everyone takes their shoes off when micron is around

  19. #194
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    It has been noted in several quarters- the Chinese diplomatic response has been surprisingly muted. That's because they realise it doesn't actually matter much in the grand scheme of things, but isolates the regressive and inward looking angloverse even more from the real world. And revenge, well that's a dish best served cold.

    It definitely increases our deterrent capacity, if that's your main thing. And dealing with the frogs was becoming very frustrating (I know this from my old Navy colleagues). Latest talk is that the government is looking at a deal to base 2 UK nuke subs here, as a stopgap to the 20+ year wait for the new subs, whatever they may end up being, or costing. To protect us from, u'mmm, what again?

    I just laugh at the thought of the UK having two of it's prime deterrent weapons based down under. So Vlad isn't gonna invade after all?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    the West under the US have been occupied with short termism and no strategic plan, rushing around putting out bushfires.
    Factually incorrect. The US shifted political and military focus to the Pacific region since the era.y days of the first Obam administration. Western allies followed suit, either directly or in support of operations elsewhere.

    The Chinese policy to load poor countries with debt, is starting to bite back. The population of those countries will eventually remove the communists and/or dictators, who have screwed them. Laos anyone?

    The only person in this Submarine deal who is upset is the little Frenchman. The French allies in th EU, the Germans, are focused on who might replace Mutti Merkel. The EU as a whole does not care about a small French bloke, with an oversized and worthless ego.

    Australian deal with the French has taken so long, it has been overtaken by technology. They need modern faster, stealthy subs that can carry a greater payload, and remain at sea longer. Because the French were too slow, Aus wanted the boats updated and changed as the deal progressed. This was part of the reason for increased costs.
    Most blue water navies understand this, and they are moving in the same direction.

    If this deal comes off, more will follow.

  21. #196
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    NO TO NUCLEAR SUBMARINES – JOBS AND HEALTH, NOT NUKES

    Published: 20 Sep 2021

    "Today, on the International Day of Peace, the Maritime Union of Australia (MUA) declares its total opposition to the reckless announcement by Scott Morrison that Australia would be developing nuclear-powered submarines as part of a military alliance with the US and UK.

    At a time when Morrison should have been pursuing vaccination supplies and providing maximum support to our health system and millions of people in lockdown, he has been pursuing secret military deals. The deal will continue to escalate unnecessary conflict with China. Workers have already been impacted with seafarers stranded on coal ships and some trades shut down.

    Extraordinary sums of money have been wasted with the previous submarine contract scrapped only five years after it was signed. That contract was worth $90 billion – nuclear submarines will cost much more."

    Continues ....

    NO TO NUCLEAR SUBMARINES – JOBS AND HEALTH, NOT NUKES | Maritime Union of Australia

    Nuclear subs: A dangerous delusion


    Policy & Politics | 16/09/2021 11:55:17 AM Electrical Trades Union

    "The Electrical Trades Union has condemned Scott Morrison’s decision to embrace nuclear submarines as one that will expose Australians to greater danger on multiple fronts.

    ETU National Assistant Secretary Michael Wright said the decision had not been subject to appropriate scrutiny.


    “After completely bungling the Naval Group submarines deal, the Commonwealth Government expects us to believe it can be trusted to negotiate and manage the delivery of nuclear submarines. This is preposterous,” Mr Wright said.

    “Nuclear submarines will require significant offshore maintenance, undermining Australia’s
    sovereign capability. Surely the recent experience with COVID demonstrated the danger of relying on international supply chains for the core needs of a self-respecting nation?"

    Continues ....

    Nuclear subs: A dangerous delusion
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  22. #197
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    It has been noted in several quarters- the Chinese diplomatic response has been surprisingly muted.
    Oh fuck off.

    They've been whining like the usual little schoolgirls who've had their pigtails pulled.

  23. #198
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Australian deal with the French has taken so long, it has been overtaken by technology. They need modern faster, stealthy subs that can carry a greater payload, and remain at sea longer. Because the French were too slow, Aus wanted the boats updated and changed as the deal progressed. This was part of the reason for increased costs.
    Also, BoJo got to fuck them up the arse as payback for their Brexit shenanigens.


  24. #199
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    the Maritime Union of Australia (MUA)
    Electrical Trades Union
    Gosh a bunch of lefties supporting the chinkies, there's a surprise.

  25. #200
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Gosh a bunch of lefties supporting the chinkies, there's a surprise.
    he said, as if he knew everything about Australian unions..

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