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  1. #51
    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    Moves such as this only serve to give the impression that the Americans and shifting their priorities and former close allies can go to hell.
    There are weapons manufacturers in all 50 states in the USA.


    There are also voters in all 50 states.

    Some of these voters have their daily outcome from producing weapons.

    Politics

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    personally I consider it quite aggressive
    Do you have an opinion on Chinas incursions into so called disputed waters over he past decade or what about their inflammatory comments about invading Japan or Taiwan. The problem with you Canuks is that aside from your oil and teacher pension investments inveigling into countries companies you really are quite anonymous...nay useless. Vive La Canada

  3. #53
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    I think China is being overly aggressive in the SCS and I'd like to see the Americans up the stakes there. I've never heard of China threatening to invade Japan, do you have a link? Viva La Canada Libre!

  4. #54
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helge View Post
    There are also voters in all 50 states.

    Some of these voters have their daily outcome from producing weapons.

    Politics
    That about tells the entire story Helge.

    You've got to remember that the Americans gained their nation threw war, not like civilized countries such as Denmark and Canada, eh.

  5. #55
    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    you really are quite anonymous...nay useless.
    You swedes probably do not know, but the canadians did come to the rescue, when they were called,last time the brits were on the shitter.

    Anonymous ?

    Only to you



  6. #56
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    Australia's submarine program has truly lost its rudder

    China is well on its way to achieving its goal of complete military modernisation by 2027 and already has more warships and submarines than the US. China's shipyards launch a new sub every year or so.

    Peter Hartcher



    Australia is well on its way to achieving world champion status in faffing about with submarine acquisition. As of Thursday, Australia has no agreement with anyone to build any new submarines whatsoever.

    China has 66 submarines. It's expected to have 10 more by 2030, six of those nuclear powered, according to the US Office of Naval Intelligence.

    By that time, Australia will have exactly as many subs as it has today, which is the same number it had a quarter-century earlier, according to Morrison government's statements on Thursday.

    That is, Australia will have the same six Collins class diesel powered subs that were first commissioned by the Hawke government, assuming they're still functional. Their retirement has been postponed repeatedly as successive governments - Labor and Liberal - have fumbled their replacements.

    So what was all the fanfare from Scott Morrison, Joe Biden and Boris Johnson on Thursday? Australia, the US and UK have announced an "enhanced trilateral security partnership", the inelegantly named AUKUS. It is not a treaty and doesn't pretend to be.

    But it does represent an increased level of trust and an intensified commitment to share technology and advanced weaponry. This includes co-operation on some of the same next-generation technologies that Beijing has declared as its highest tech priorities - quantum computing, quantum communication, artificial intelligence and cyber.

    This could prove to be the most important element of the agreement in equipping Australia for its own defence in the longer run, if it's executed intelligently, a major caveat.

    As Joe Biden put it, AUKUS is a "historic step to deepen and formalise co-operation among all three of our nations, because we all recognise the imperative of ensuring peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific over the long-term."


    But the three wartime allies have chosen to announce as their first initiative a plan to help Australia acquire nuclear propulsion technology for submarines.
    Australia has spent the entire post-war era fantasising about nuclear power for its submarines. Till now, that's all they were, fantasies.

    Morrison gets credit for persuading Washington and London to share their closely held nuclear expertise with Canberra. But what's Australia going to do with it? Beyond the theatrics of the announcement, what is the practical outcome?

    First, the Morrison government has cancelled the existing contracts to buy 12 French-designed submarines. This was the deal that the Turnbull government struck five years ago. The subs, to be built in Adelaide based on French design, were to cost an estimated lifetime total of $90 billion. The first was supposed to enter the water in about a decade from now.

    That agreement, which was feted as the basis of a new era in strategic relations with France, is now dead. All that remains is an argument about how much Australia will have to pay to cancel. And a deep sense of French dismay and betrayal. Much as Australia's abortive deal for Japanese subs ended years earlier.

    And in its place? The Morrison government has announced an interdepartmental committee to spend the next 18 months talking to the US and UK "identifying the optimal pathway to deliver at least eight nuclear-powered submarines for Australia". They're to be built in Adelaide, the government tells us, so that will require a full reconfiguration of the shipyards and workforce. But there is no known design and certainly no contracts. In other words, it's a plan to have a plan.

    But we know from the Morrison government that the proposed new nuclear subs will be delivered years later than the French-designed subs, and cost more. And because it's planning "at least eight", Australia could end up with fewer than the 12 in the previous deal.

    Nuclear propulsion will, if it ever becomes operative in an Australian sub, allow subs to remain on station longer, underwater longer and travel faster. The subs aren't proposed to have nuclear arms.

    The nuclear reactors that drive them would be inserted as sealed units by the US or UK. Canberra says that no civil or military nuclear capability will be developed in Australia.

    "We'd be buying a nuclear reactor in a box," says ASPI's sub specialist, Marcus Hellyer. "It does make us even more dependent on the US. At any point they can turn off the technology. The question then is what expertise we can develop to operate and sustain the subs."

    Australia can now contemplate another decade or two with no new subs. And even if this proposal goes to plan, Australia will not have a full sovereign capability but an increased defence dependency on the US. Perhaps Morrison thinks that America, having produced one Donald Trump, could not possibly produce another.

    So when Beijing's spokesmen fulminate against this announcement, don't be surprised if they have to pause to laugh into their sleeves.

    Australia's submarine program has truly lost its rudder (msn.com)



    Forget about the predictable hype, the equally predictable Gallic wounded pride, and Chinese routine, knee jerk 'expression of concern'. What we are talking about here is a "Statement of Intent". Nothing contractually binding, no suppliers or purchase contracts organised- and as best I'm aware, no consideration given to the fact Australia will require another sub base in the north (perhaps HMAS Coonawarra, Darwin can be refitted and extended) for this to pose any credible counterthreat to the Chinese, or provide the much larger US boat fleet with a local facility.

    So a lot of politics to come.
    Last edited by sabang; 17-09-2021 at 04:00 AM.

  7. #57
    Thailand Expat
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    So I log on to Google news this morning to monitor the world's headlines., Every major publication has it's take and analysis on the submarine deal between the US and Australia.
    Fox's Headline is "Biden appears to forget Australian Prime Ministers name" LOL and people wonder why trampazees are so ignorant.
    US will share nuclear submarine technology with Australia in new defense partnership-news-today-jpg
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

  8. #58
    still dealing with idioms
    Hugh Cow's Avatar
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    One wonders at all these shananigans. The Chinese militarisation of the SCS and their beligerant attitude has done more to convince countries in the Asian region to increase their defence spending than anyone else. The Kiwis have a long history of banning nuclear powered ships in their waters although It seems strange that a country that is a party to the Anzus treaty, with less than 10,000 people in its armed services and no combat aircraft in its air force, would shun the very people it will need to help defend it.
    Last edited by Hugh Cow; 17-09-2021 at 08:00 AM.

  9. #59
    I Amn't In Jail PlanK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    The Kiwis have a long history of banning nuclear powered ships in their waters although It seems strange that a country that is a party to the Anzus treaty, with less than 10,000 people in its armed services and no combat aircraft in its air force, would shun the very people it will need to help defend it.
    Wait... What?

    Who's attacking? And who's defending? And when did NZ end up in the South China Sea?

  10. #60
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    Aukus: China calls the alliance 'irresponsible', Australia shrugs

    Australia on Friday shrugged off angry Chinese reaction over US-UK-Australia alliance that will involve Australia receiving nuclear submarine technology from the trans-Atlantic partners. It is widely believed that the three countries have come together in order to counter growing Chinese assertion in the South China Sea and in view of its ever-increasing military expenditure.


    US President Joe Biden announced the new Australia-US-Britain defence alliance on Wednesday. China's government described the alliance as an "extremely irresponsible"


    China has its own "very substantive programme of nuclear submarine building", Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison said Friday in an interview with radio station 2GB.


    "They have every right to take decisions in their national interests for their defence arrangements and of course so does Australia and all other countries," he said.

    In a series of media interviews, the Australian leader said his government was reacting to changing dynamics in the Asia-Pacific region where territory is increasingly contested and competition is rising.


    Australia is "very aware" of China's nuclear submarine capabilities and growing military investment, he said in an interview with Channel Seven television.


    "We are interested in ensuring that international waters are always international waters and international skies are international skies, and that the rule of law applies equally in all of these places," he said.


    Australia wanted to ensure that were no "no-go zones" in areas governed by international law, he said.


    "That's very important whether it is for trade, whether it is for things like undersea cables, for planes and where they can fly. I mean that is the order that we need to preserve. That is what peace and stability provides for and that is what we are seeking to achieve."

    Aukus: China calls the alliance 'irresponsible', Australia shrugs, World News | wionews.com

  11. #61
    Thailand Expat reddog's Avatar
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    The French were trying to sell a pup,outdated tech and untried build and billions overvalued.
    There is a cracker of a cartoon in todays Australia paper by Johannes Leak taking the
    piss out of the woke PM of NZ.

  12. #62
    Thailand Expat helge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    And even if this proposal goes to plan, Australia will not have a full sovereign capability but an increased defence dependency on the US. Perhaps Morrison thinks that America, having produced one Donald Trump, could not possibly produce another.
    Yes, that is some basket to put all of your eggs in

  13. #63
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    ^^ This one?

    US will share nuclear submarine technology with Australia in new defense partnership-7eeef041-3ee7-4019-b6f3-74f416f6ae2c-jpeg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails US will share nuclear submarine technology with Australia in new defense partnership-7eeef041-3ee7-4019-b6f3-74f416f6ae2c-jpeg  

  14. #64
    Thailand Expat reddog's Avatar
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    Thanks misskit.

  15. #65
    Thailand Expat
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Perhaps Morrison
    Is he “that fella down under” ?

  16. #66
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post



    Gotta handed to those Yankees, when you think it can't get worse: G. Bush, Trump and now this old retarded Bozo.
    I hope the Generals stand by him when he's ready to push the wrong button

  17. #67
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    The froggies are indeed furious. Still its their fault, their estimated costs have grown dramatically to $90Bn + for 12 diesel electrics and they have procrastinated over the % built in the Oz dockyards for over 4 years now - som nam na.

    It will look cheap after this seppo sub gets built

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    It will look cheap after this seppo sub gets built
    Well the cost of the Froggie boats kept climbing so unless you know the final price then that comment is spurious and you are comparing apples and pears

  19. #69
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Australia should have picked the Japanese from the start. You know, keep the money in the neighborhood and so on.
    But if those Yankees give more contracts to LYNAS I won't be angry. I guess I'am just a capitalist swine.

  20. #70
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    One has to agree with the sentiment being expressed in France from all levels of government. The FM has described the submarine cancellation as a slap in the face and 'Trumpiesque' in nature. Apparently they were told nothing of the negotiations. I am hearing the same sentiment widely expressed in Canada today. Moves such as this only serve to give the impression that the Americans and shifting their priorities and former close allies can go to hell. There is little doubt that the Europeans are seriously given more thought to lessening American involvement in there own security.

    In any case this entire scheme makes little sense to me, personally I consider it quite aggressive and possibly only intended to satiate the desires of confirmed war mongers like Snubbles and similar folks.

    The French lost a 90 billion dollar deal. But that's what they get for being a foot mat of the US.

  21. #71
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    Well the cost of the Froggie boats kept climbing so unless you know the final price then that comment is spurious and you are comparing apples and pears

    Yeah. And it wasn't even nuclear. This is going to be the mother of all military procurement clusterfucks. Australia won't have decent subs for 10-15 years

  22. #72
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Prime Minister Karen has already weighed in.

    Australian nuclear subs will be banned from New Zealand waters: Ardern

    WELLINGTON (AFP) - New Zealand will not lift a decades-long ban on nuclear-powered vessels entering its waters in the wake of key ally Australia's decision to develop a nuclear submarine fleet, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said on Thursday (Sept 16).

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Yeah. And it wasn't even nuclear. This is going to be the mother of all military procurement clusterfucks. Australia won't have decent subs for 10-15 years
    Are you really that dumb? the Frenchies have pushed back delivery until at least 2030 and that was without a single steel laid. Forgive me but you come across as a bit of an apologist

  24. #74
    Thailand Expat Saint Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    To pose any credible counterthreat to this mythical Chinese invasion, Australia would need a sub base in the N/NE of this rather large country
    that’s not the purpose.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Willy View Post
    that’s not the purpose.
    True and what people are forgetting is the decision is a clear indication and affirmation to the Chinks where Oz affiliation lies and who they can depend upon for support .... not the Frogs and EU for a start

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