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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    prior to receiving the verified facts.
    Who cares about facts? Isn't it enough when said by a big guy many years ago? And by one not so long ago: "we choose truth over facts" (or was it vice versa?)

  2. #52
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    ^ It does seem to be getting a tad out of hand.

    Thanks for posting all that Sabang. This is kind of humorous,



    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    eleven of the top 50 Chinese cotton mills are based in China
    . Gave me a chuckle anyway.

    I have a few comments if I might.

    I think this concerted effort is starting to bother the CPC.

    First we have the EU, UK, the USA and Canada with sanctions and travel bans as well as the freezing of Chinese assets. Now Australia and New Zealand are joining in and we have nothing short of a full court press. The Chinese have retaliated with travel bans on business and political leaders in the EU and UK.. The Oceania folks aren't imposing any sanctions or travel bans but are stating that they strongly support the actions of the EU, and the UK folks.

    What have I missed?

    So next expect travel bans on American business and political leaders. Australia and New Zealand definitely aren't off the hook. Expect something from there. I'm convinced that they are saving their foulest for Canada. A former Canadian Foreign Minister built the framework for this group action and we still do have our hands on Meng Wanzhou.

    The Chinese I'm guessing are very concerned and find themselves well pinned. This is still a long way from over. We've just gotten started. It's pretty much the new Cold War.

    To the question of evidence,

    We have satellite photography and eye witness evidence (from those lucky enough to have gotten out) We also have the evidence from professional spies. One could argue the question of evidence till the cows arise. The thread to date has been full of evidence good enough for myself and I'm never easy to be convinced.

    I'm expecting to hear now about how "we" got it so terribly wrong in Iraq, and I wouldn't disagree.

    Take care,
    A true diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you will be asking for directions.

  3. #53
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    satellite photography
    This is hopelessly flawed though- the photographic 'evidence' includes such things as migrant workers barracks, to be found all over China (& tbh not much better than gulags) and childrens schools!

    I am not in a position to say that, by our standards at least, no human rights violations have been committed in Xinjiang- but I am in a position to state that the situation is being grossly exaggerated, for political purposes. Grossly.

    So lets get to the bottom line- what are Chinas real crimes, according to the US/western axis? The second biggest is that it is competing. The biggest is that it is winning.

    Vaguely intelligent people might even use this propaganda blitz to shine a spotight on the relative performance of their own governments vs the CCP- certainly when it comes to the equitable and rising distribution of wealth to their own citizenry. it is pretty obvious that in most of the West, wealth growth is concentrated in the hands of a few, usually already rich folk. We have become a plutocracy. They don't want you talking about that, never mind doing anything about it- so lets demonise China instead! But the average Chinese citizen is way, way better off than he was 25 years ago- but in the US, I doubt they have even maintained their standard of living. Quite a contrast.

    And, erm, "concentration camps"? The USA has a far, far higher percentage of it's population incarcerated than China- it has in fact more incarcerated people than China, with roughly treble the US population!

    Good housekeeping starts at Home.
    Last edited by sabang; 27-03-2021 at 04:01 AM.

  4. #54
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    I hate being dragged into the weeds Sabang.

    I'm looking at your overall comments and I can't but sense "conspiracy" in the air. Do you think this is a western conspiracy to discredit the Chinese? I see no evidence of that whatsoever. The other underlying factor here Sabang is that we do know with certainty what happened in Tibet. Would you deny that that was a genocide? But let's stick with Xinjiang.

    Can you present again your theory as to why the west would be demonizing China on this issue?

    You have the floor,

  5. #55
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    Do you think this is a western conspiracy to discredit the Chinese?
    Goodness no- a Conspiracy operates in the shadows, this is out in the open. It is a western narrative, stoked by the USA (which obviously feels very threatened by the rise of China), but also promulgated by other western political and media sources- particularly but not exclusively on the Right. We are being bombarded with blatant, politicised propaganda- which tragically, is enough to convince most of the numpties. Do they ever learn? No, never. It works equally as well now as it did in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, sigh.

    Btw, why is it even considered pro-Chinese to ask fellow citizens to compare the performance of the Chinese government
    vis-à-vis it's own Citizenry, to that of our own?

    Must admit I haven't even watched this yet, but it looks interesting. Jerry Grey again, with an on the ground perspective outside the virtually unanimous narrative- ie propaganda- we are being bombarded with in the main stream media.
    You owe it to yourself as a citizen of the Free world to look, listen and compare- but that is entirely up to You.


    Last edited by sabang; 27-03-2021 at 06:37 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    I'm looking at your overall comments and I can't but sense "conspiracy"
    sabang likes to be 'edgy' in his views but he isn't a conspiracy nutter

  7. #57
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Yup, Sabang's a good guy. I enjoy his posts. Green to sabang if I can.

    And I've reached 500 posts ! Maybe now I can get rid of all that colour up above. Quite messy really

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    Yup, Sabang's a good guy.
    Whoooooaaaaa . . . I didn't go that far!!!!!!





    (but yes, he is )

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    Maybe now I can get rid of all that colour up above. Quite messy really
    You can switch it deliberately off. Like many our friends who are very active with distributing the reds left and right, however, they do not want to disturb us with their reds...

  10. #60
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    ou can switch it deliberately off.
    How can I do that?

  11. #61
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    ^

    Settings - General Settings - Reputation Level

    then Save Changes in the bottom of the page

  12. #62
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks lom.

    All kinds of stuff I didn't know about.

  13. #63
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    ^^
    You are allowed to click on the other pages under Settings and see what you can personalize...

  14. #64
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    As the thread starter it's your prerogative to direct it wherever but:

    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    The United States, the European Union, Britain and Canada have imposed sanctions on several Chinese officials for human rights abuses against the Muslim Uyghur minority in China's Xinjiang province
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    The other underlying factor here Sabang is that we do know with certainty what happened in Tibet. Would you deny that that was a genocide?
    Are they both included in the newly imposed sanctions?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any particular Tibet "genocide"?

    There has been a few, "allegedly."

    Timeline

    October 1950- One year after Mao Zedong won the civil war, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army marched into Tibet
    .


    September 1954- Chairman Mao meets Dalai Lama.



    March 1959-After the reforms are introduced thousands are killed. The Dalai Lama flees to India, with about 80,000 followers. No country recognizes the “government-in-exile” he established in Dharamsala.


    1966- The Cultural Revolution in China begins. The Tibetan Red Guards closed monasteries in Tibet. The smashed Buddhist statues and forced nuns and monks to return to secular life.



    May 1990- Lhasa lifts martial law. Government-in-exile disbands to pave way for democracy, and announced elections for 1991.




    March 1999- China opens its doors for Dalai Lama, if he abandons his calls for Tibetan independence and makes a statement saying Tibet is an inseparable part of China.



    March 2008- Up to 80 people were killed in the anti-China riots in Lhasa, the government-in-exile. Tibet’s top government official says the death toll was only 13. They say that they were Han Chinese civilians by Tibetan mobs.





    https://sites.google.com/site/tibetiangenocide/timeline
    Last edited by OhOh; 27-03-2021 at 12:39 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    The other underlying factor here Sabang is that we do know with certainty what happened in Tibet. Would you deny that that was a genocide?
    Why we do not know what happened in Tibet? Few pages back is more about the history of Tibet, their slavery and serfdom.

    And there are many accounts of the older travellers, adventurers who were travelling there 100 years ago.
    E.g. Swiss lady Ella Maillart - just recently shown in French TV a document about her - and she was joined on her journeys by an English traveller, certain Peter Fleming, an older brother of the more famous Ian Fleming...

    So, do you think that such a "regime change" (as nowadays some like to organize to others) that eliminate slavery and serfdom is a genocide? Even if it results in some brutal actions?

    Similarly when the slavery and serfdom was eliminate (more or less) in some other countries (please no names here), do we call it genocide? (Even if it results in some brutal actions?)

  16. #66
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    God bless the Dalai Lama. Of the Chinese he says, "my friends the enemy".

    I have a deep and abiding respect for the man. I've seen him several times in Vancouver. I visited Dharamsala but unfortunately he wasn't there at the time.

    Anyway, back to the present day and China and the sanctions. I expect diplomatic activity on both sides to intensify in the next few weeks.

    The west as a group has drawn a line. We'll have to see how it holds. We're into a very long game. The Orientals are good at the long game. Unfortunately, in the west, the long game is usually about as long as the four year election cycle. Of course, that will have to change. Maybe a present day Great Game has begun.

  17. #67
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Well, the shoes has dropped again, sooner than I was expecting.

    So China sanctions several Canadian and American businessmen/politicians.

    I'll go through the list latter in some detail.

  18. #68
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    I hate being dragged into the weeds Sabang.

    I'm looking at your overall comments and I can't but sense "conspiracy" in the air. Do you think this is a western conspiracy to discredit the Chinese? I see no evidence of that whatsoever. The other underlying factor here Sabang is that we do know with certainty what happened in Tibet. Would you deny that that was a genocide? But let's stick with Xinjiang.

    Can you present again your theory as to why the west would be demonizing China on this issue?

    You have the floor,

    I am not saying Tibet was a CIA job completely. But they were hanging around. The idea was to take down the communist party of China with the momentum of the Soviet collapse.

    What sources do you like ?

    CIA Tibetan program - Wikipedia

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    ^^
    You are allowed to click on the other pages under Settings and see what you can personalize...
    Someone who has had this nick since 2016 and probably been operating under another one (or more) since does not really need educating....

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I am not saying Tibet was a CIA job completely. But they were hanging around.
    Ah, that clears it up . . . backtracking and then saying the CIA was just 'hanging around'. An exceptional political analysis as usual, Skidmark

  21. #71
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Xinjiang: China hits back with sanctions on US and Canadian politicians as international


    China announced sanctions on American and Canadian officials in charge of religious affairs on Saturday as it hit back at Western countries that have accused it of human rights abuses in Xinjiang. Those targeted by the new sanctions include Gayle Manchin, chairwoman of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, and its vice chairman Tony Perkins; Canadian MP Michael Chong and members of the Canadian Commons subcommittee on international human rights.
    They are not allowed to enter mainland China and Hong Kong, Macau, and entities in China are banned from transactions and physical contact with them, according to a statement by the foreign ministry, which said the sanctions were designed to fight back against “lies” and “misinformation”

    China has launched a series of retaliatory measures following sanctions from Western countries over its Xinjiang policies.
    On Friday, it lodged a “firm protest” with Britain over the decision to sanction officials accused of human rights abuses as the international backlash over Beijing’s policies in the region continued to escalate.
    Britain joined the European Union and United States in imposing sanctions this week, while international fashion retailers’ refusal to use cotton from the far-western region over concerns about forced labour triggered a backlash from Chinese consumers.
    However, on Friday the Chinese branch of the Better Cotton Initiative, a non-profit set up to uphold standards across the industry, issued a statement saying it had not identified any forced labour among its suppliers in Xinjiang, citing second-party credibility audits and third-party verifications. On the diplomatic front, the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs and its chargé d’affaires in London Yang Xiaoguang, lodged solemn representations with the United Kingdom.


    China announced sanctions on American and Canadian officials in charge of religious affairs on Saturday as it hit back at Western countries that have accused it of human rights abuses in Xinjiang.Those targeted by the new sanctions include Gayle Manchin, chairwoman of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, and its vice chairman Tony Perkins; Canadian MP Michael Chong and members of the Canadian Commons subcommittee on international human rights.
    They are not allowed to enter mainland China and Hong Kong, Macau, and entities in China are banned from transactions and physical contact with them, according to a statement by the foreign ministry, which said the sanctions were designed to fight back against “lies” and “misinformation”

    China has launched a series of retaliatory measures following sanctions from Western countries over its Xinjiang policies.
    On Friday, it lodged a “firm protest” with Britain over the decision to sanction officials accused of human rights abuses as the international backlash over Beijing’s policies in the region continued to escalate.
    Britain joined the European Union and United States in imposing sanctions this week, while international fashion retailers’ refusal to use cotton from the far-western region over concerns about forced labour triggered a backlash from Chinese
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    However, on Friday the Chinese branch of the Better Cotton Initiative, a non-profit set up to uphold standards across the industry, issued a statement saying it had not identified any forced labour among its suppliers in Xinjiang, citing second-party credibility audits and third-party verifications.
    On the diplomatic front, the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs and its chargé d’affaires in London Yang Xiaoguang, lodged solemn representations with the United Kingdom.



    Xinjiang: China hits back with sanctions on US and Canadian politicians as international backlash grows | South China Morning Post
    Last edited by russellsimpson; 28-03-2021 at 04:35 AM.

  22. #72
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    Russ, that is a lot of text to plough through. Ordinarily posters try to cut it down to the salient issues and link to the main article if you want to read on. Jusy saying, no offence intended.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Ah, that clears it up . . . backtracking and then saying the CIA was just 'hanging around'. An exceptional political analysis as usual, Skidmark
    The top post of the page for me sees Klongdick and OhOh talking about the need for verified facts.



    With back passage and his incisive political analysis also entering the fray, irony levels have just left the room, exploded into particles equal to the brain sizes of the aforementioned three unwise men and are now some way over Jupiter.

  24. #74
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    ^^That better?

    I knew it need a damn good tidy up.

    Cheers

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    ^^That better?
    better Russ yes, gentleman.

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