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  1. #76
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    It might be a Pyrrhic victory, but the plain fact is Azerbaijan could crush tiny Armenia if it wanted to, and take back the breakaway republic of Nagorno-Karabakh. Armenia has had to give up some of the land it seized (illegally under international law), but it's 'Breakaway republic' remains essentially intact, and connected to Armenia proper by a land corridor. Putin did the right thing.

  2. #77
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    You're too thick to stay on topic or on point.
    lol wut. If Armenia chose to be a good ally with Russia instead of turning against it , the war probably doesn't happen. If Armenia was out there at the UN voting with Russia , Russia would not allow such things to happen.

    So Armenia was free to chum it up with Nato as much as they want. It just happened to cost them a serious amount of territory.

  3. #78
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    ^You seem to be suggesting Putin approved of the war, to 'punish' tiny Armenia. If so, why did he save it's arse, and even preserve the Breakaway republic (which is not internationally recognised by anyone, including the US). Your reasoning sounds like B/S to me.

  4. #79
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    ^You seem to be suggesting Putin approved of the war, to 'punish' tiny Armenia. If so, why did he save it's arse, and even preserve the Breakaway republic (which is not internationally recognised by anyone, including the US). Your reasoning sounds like B/S to me.
    Nah that's not what I am saying. I just don't think Azerbaijan would have attacked at all, if there was a firmly pro Russian govt in power. Even if a multilateral govt (like Serbia now for example)was in power, I doubt Azerbaijan attacks. But one openly hostile to Russia ? That was too hard to pass up.

    Russia still did help Armenia with arms anyway. And the Azerbaijan president even bitched about it.

    Aliyev Asks Putin To Clarify Russian Military Shipment To Armenia

    In a phone call with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev discussed reports about the delivery of large amounts of military supplies from Russia to Armenia starting on July 17, right after Armenia-Azerbaijan border skirmishes ended.


    President Aliyev said the more than 400-ton Russian military shipment to Armenia raises concern and serious questions among the Azerbaijani public, emphasizing that the main purpose of the phone call was to clarify this issue, President.Az reports.


    According to the 1news.az news portal, Russia was delivering modern weapons to Armenia during the height of fighting in Tovuz. After the ceasefire, Russia operated eight more flights carrying military supplies, including two flights on July 17 and one flight each on July 18, 20, 27, 29 and August 4, 6.


    The military cargo planes were forced to make a detour on their way to Armenia after Georgia did not allow Russia to use its airspace for the delivery. Instead, the Il-76 heavy cargo-carrying aircraft flew along a route stretching from the Russian cities of Rostov and Minvody to the cities of Aktau in Kazakhstan, Turkmenbashi in Turkmenistan and Nowsher in Iran. The final stretch of the flight was operated over Armenia's southern town of Meghri near the border with Iran, finally arriving to the Armenian capital, Yerevan.

    As a result, what was supposed to be a 500-km trip lasting one hour, turned into a 2000-km trip lasting three and a half hours.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    You're too thick
    Quote Originally Posted by hallelujah View Post
    He's just an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    lol wut.
    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    If Armenia chose to be a good ally with Russia instead of turning against it , the war probably doesn't happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    If Armenia was out there at the UN voting with Russia , Russia would not allow such things to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    So Armenia was free to chum it up with Nato as much as they want.
    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    You're too thick
    Quote Originally Posted by hallelujah View Post
    He's just an idiot.

    And again in your simpleton world:
    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I just don't think Azerbaijan would have attacked at all, if there was a firmly pro Russian govt in power.
    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    You're too thick
    Quote Originally Posted by hallelujah View Post
    He's just an idiot.

  6. #81
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    It might be a Pyrrhic victory, but the plain fact is Azerbaijan could crush tiny Armenia if it wanted to, and take back the breakaway republic of Nagorno-Karabakh. Armenia has had to give up some of the land it seized (illegally under international law), but it's 'Breakaway republic' remains essentially intact, and connected to Armenia proper by a land corridor. Putin did the right thing.
    Sure Azer could crush Armenia, except for that trivial component called Russia, which when the chips are down is firmly with Armenia. Yes Putin did the right thing, though I fault him for not stepping in earlier, being no secret that this was the Turkish thug's venture.

    The problem is not Armenia, Azer or Russia, but Erdogan. And now with thousands of jihadi nomads looking for a new home, the world sits back and waits for his next cunning plan to divert attention from the economic woes back home.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hallelujah View Post
    As I've said before, he's a classic example of a little knowledge being dangerous.

    He clearly reads a lot of stuff on the Internet (some stuff even beyond the headline), but he doesn't have the mental capacity to understand/evaluate it and only gives it credence anyway if it fits his nutjob conspiracy theories, which are also garnered from the tinfoil-hat corners of the Internet.

    He's just an idiot. Very good sport to laugh at though.
    Spot on!

  8. #83
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    It might be a Pyrrhic victory, but the plain fact is Azerbaijan could crush tiny Armenia if it wanted to, and take back the breakaway republic of Nagorno-Karabakh. Armenia has had to give up some of the land it seized (illegally under international law), but it's 'Breakaway republic' remains essentially intact, and connected to Armenia proper by a land corridor. Putin did the right thing.
    For him, yes.

  9. #84
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Armenians are burning down their houses and even digging up graves to relocate their dead. Brutal.


  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Armenians are burning down their houses and even digging up graves to relocate their dead. Brutal.
    This should pleasing to you, being the uneducated, neo-Nazi rape-apologist ghoul that you are.

  11. #86
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    Historical undercurrents in Nagorno-Karabakh


    November 18, 2020 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR

    "The analysts focusing on the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis through the prism of regional politics fail to factor in that the Caucasus comprises ancient peoples. The Russian President Vladimir Putin highlighted this in remarks to the media in Moscow yesterday when he brushed aside the perception that Moscow could be harbouring a grudge against Armenian prime minister Nikol Pashinyan, who came to power through a ‘colour revolution’ in 2018. Putin said, “There are centuries-long relations between Russia and the Armenian people, which date back to the distant past. Our relations are based on cultural and religious affinity, as well as on strong historical, and it is even more important than relations between individuals.”

    Indeed, both Russia and Iran have ancient links to the Armenian people. In history, Armenia had the image of a trader nation — much like the Marwaris of India — given its geographical location at a crossroads of continents. Armenia was a key transit point for international trade and a crucial link in the ancient Silk Road.


    But it was after the capture of Constantinople by Ottoman Turks in 1453, which disrupted the trade between the West and East, that European traders were compelled to seek the help of Asian intermediaries. And that opened the window of opportunity for the Armenian traders.


    It was a god-sent boon because Armenia had lost its independence in the 14th century and after three centuries of chaos, life regained normalcy only by 1639 following the peace treaty between the Ottoman Empire and Safavid Persia.

    The Ottomans persecuted the Armenians but on the contrary, the Safavid rulers in Iran extended a warm welcome to them, granting special rights to Armenian merchants (known as “khas”) that were equal to those enjoyed by Iranian high officials.

    The Armenian settlers never looked back. By the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, the Armenian merchant class of Persia, known as khojayut’yun or khojas (‘lord’ and ‘rich’ in Persian respectively) had the world at its feet, against the backdrop of the strengthening political and economic relations between the East and West and the growth of the European economy and its high demand for Eastern goods.


    The ancient mercantile traditions of the Armenians, well-known for their resourcefulness and geographical mobility, came into full play. If trade would secure for the Armenians a measure of prestige, prosperity, and power, for Europeans they were Christian Armenians who held the keys to the East by virtue of their great adeptness in managing the East-West commerce.

    The national characteristics of the Armenian traders included linguistic knowledge, negotiation skills, and a rare acumen in mediating and resolving conflicts, which equipped them to act as cross-cultural intermediaries.

    The Persian emperor Shah Abbas I (1587–1629) was so enthralled by the Armenian merchants that he gave their settlement on the outskirts of Isfahan a monopoly over the Persian filoselle (raw silk) export trade!

    This enabled the Armenian traders to dominate the filoselle trade throughout the seventeenth century, and by mid-century they controlled over seventy per cent of the trade, producing this valuable product and exporting it all over the world—including Europe, China, and later even America.

    That was the golden age of the Armenian trader, which lasted for about 150 years. The Iranian rulers so much appreciated the flourishing commerce that rich Armenian merchants of Isfahan were granted citizenship and the freedom to practice their own Christianity!

    Of course, the credit goes to the pragmatic understanding of the Iranian rulers that foreign trade brought immense wealth to their country. Indeed, the Armenian khojas not only became rich themselves but also enriched the Persian Shah’s treasury.

    On the other hand, thanks to the patronage of the Persian court, Armenian merchants established a powerful international commercial network, including the entire Levantine trade.

    Their maritime networks spread across Eastern and Western Europe, Russia, the Levant, the Middle East, Central Asia, India, and the Far East.

    What an amazing feat for a colonised, stateless nation to establish its own “empire” through extensive commercial presence!

    That “empire” encompassed Surat, Madras and Calcutta in India, Constantinople and Izmir in Turkey, Moscow, Krakow, Lwow, Venice, Amsterdam and other centres.

    The Armenian merchants’ early trade routes to Europe passed through Russia, bypassing the Ottoman Empire. Starting from Isfahan via Tabriz to Shemakha in Iran, the trade route crossed the Caspian Sea up to the lower reaches of the Volga River in Russia at Astrakhan, and then following the Volga River it touched Kostroma, before branching south to Moscow.


    From Moscow the route continued to the White Sea (southern inlet of the Barents Sea located on the northwest coast of Russia)and the city of Arkhangelsk on Russia’s Baltic and from there, various possible routes led through the North Sea and to the West.

    In the White Sea the goods were transferred to Russian or Swedish vessels and shipped to other European ports, while the Armenian merchants often took land routes to Western Europe through present-day Finland and the Scandinavian Peninsula.

    That was how the Caspian-Volga trade route acquired international commercial significance and came to be regarded as the “Armenian” route. In fact, the Armenian traders dominated the Russian trade route to Europe.


    Certainly, Putin’s remarks in Moscow were evocative. What ‘colour revolution’? The civilisational ties between the Russian and Armenian peoples are so profound.


    It seems to me increasingly that Putin hopes to work with the West for an orderly transformation of the former Soviet republics in its periphery instead of making them turfs to indulge in wasteful cold-war era tantrums such as the colour revolutions. Nagorno-Karabakh becomes a test case.


    Iran also, like Russia, has a historical consciousness vis-a-vis the Caucasus. Interestingly, although Iran welcomes the peace deal brokered by Russia in Nagorno-Karabakh, Tehran will not countenance any disruption of the established territorial boundaries between Armenia and Iran. There is much animated discussion in the Iranian media in this regard.

    From the geopolitical perspective, it is vital for Iran that the trade routes between the two countries are not affected. Both Russia and Iran would have convergence in keeping Turkey out of the Caucasus as far as possible in the interests of regional security and stability. That is also a feeling shared by the US and France, co-chairs of the Minsk Group."

    https://indianpunchline.com/historical-undercurrents-in-nagorno-karabakh/


    Further reading:
    Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire raises questions in Iran

    November 16, 2020 - 23:31

    https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/454739/Nagorno-Karabakh-ceasefire-raises-questions-in-Iran


    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  12. #87
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    This is a very in depth report about what happened and how Armenia might cease to be a nation if this continues


  13. #88
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    Hey lets try and get Armenia and Azerbaijan into Nato. Sounds like a good idea doesn't it ?

    On 26 May 2020, the European Court of Human Rights rendered a chamber judgment in Makuchyan and Minasyan v. Azerbaijan and Hungary.

    The case concerns a soldier from Azerbaijan, R.S., who killed an Armenian soldier (hacked to death with an axe) and attempted to kill another one while on a NATO training in Budapest. R.S. was sentenced by the Hungarian courts to life imprisonment for committing a serious hate crime. In 2012, following a request by Azerbaijan, R.S. was transferred to his home country to serve the rest of his sentence. However, upon his arrival in Azerbaijan, R.S. was pardoned and released. He was promoted in the army and his salaries since 2004 were reinstated. R.S. was appreciated and glorified as a national hero for what he did in Budapest.
    Last edited by Backspin; 20-11-2020 at 01:31 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Nah that's not what I am saying. I just don't think
    Indeed, that has always been the problem

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Hey lets try and get Armenia and Azerbaijan into Nato. Sounds like a good idea doesn't it ?
    I know I shouldn't but . . . How does your following text have anything to do with either joining NATO?

    Just another irrelevant Skidmark brainfart . . . and here comes the double-down into the usual oblivion

  16. #91
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    ...Armenians are much like the Israelis in terms of a lousy neighborhood, few natural resources, a holocaust, a diaspora, a stunted religion, a view of their homeland as sacred territory...and reliance on a superpower for its continuing existence. Despite these similarities, one major weakness stands out: the failure to rally the diaspora to provide more than just occasional cash infusions. The large Armenian communities in the US, France and western Europe in general need to look at and emulate the spectacular success of non-Israeli Jews and their intense and highly effective political support of Israel...and intimidation of western politicians...
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    I know I shouldn't but . . . How does your following text have anything to do with either joining NATO?

    Just another irrelevant Skidmark brainfart . . . and here comes the double-down into the usual oblivion
    Maybe because NATO had the 2 nations at a NATO event. And its plainly obvious that NATO seeks to have every nation on the Russian border join the alliance

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Maybe because NATO had the 2 nations at a NATO event.
    NATO has also had Australian, Argentinian, Japanese etc... in Brussels and elsewhere, so your 'logic' doesn't hold.



    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...Armenians are much like the Israelis in terms of a lousy neighborhood, few natural resources, a holocaust, a diaspora, a stunted religion, a view of their homeland as sacred territory...
    . . . but they are very different people both at 'home' and in their diaspora

  19. #94
    Thailand Expat Backspin's Avatar
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    Video update of the situation on the ground


  20. #95
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    Military lessons from Nagorno-Karabakh: Reason for Europe to worry

    The 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war holds important lessons for European defence. European governments should study it urgently.

    Commentary 24 November 2020

    "In the last decade, it was no secret that Azerbaijan was steadily building up its armed forces. But, despite this, few experts predicted this month’s clear-cut military victory by Azerbaijan over Armenia. Much of this victory is credited to the technical and financial side of the war: Azerbaijan was able to afford more and it had Turkish and Israeli technology that was simply better than what Armenia had to draw on. But the lessons of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war go deeper and are more complex than just questions of technology. And they hold distinct lessons for how well Europe can defend itself.

    Lesson 1: Strategy and politics matter

    The course of every war is influenced by the specific political circumstances that trigger it – and this war was no exception. Azerbaijan and Turkey were confident in the success of their offensive action, as Russia had from the onset of the war indicated that it had no intention of assisting the Armenians outside of their recognised borders. Russia also saw Azeri military pressure as a tool to weaken the Armenian prime minister, Nikol Pashinyan, who headed the 2018 revolution that removed the old regime. Azeri action would, moreover, be likely to lead Armenia accept previously negotiated “peace plans” that would strengthen Moscow’s geopolitical position. This adverse political situation directly translated into military disadvantages on the battlefield for the Armenians.

    Knowing Moscow’s tacit acceptance of a military intervention, Turkey based several F-16 fighters in Azerbaijan in October 2020 as a general deterrent. These were later used to sweep the sky of any Armenian ground-attack aircraft that tried to engage in combat. For its part, Armenia had just received eight Su-30 interceptors from Russia this summer, but did not even try to use them to contest the Azeri drones and F-16. The main reason for this was that Russia wanted Armenia not to enter into a direct confrontation with Turkey proper, and so it kept its aircraft on the ground. Russia effectively served air superiority on a diplomatic silver platter to Azerbaijan and Turkey. This proved decisive.

    Lesson 2: Computers and networks matter

    Like in Syria and Libya, Russian air-defence systems proved to be ineffective against small and slow drones. This has inspired a debate in the West about whether Russian air-defence systems are generally overrated. But this verdict would be premature.

    Armenia’s most ‘modern’ air-defence systems, the S-300PT and PS series and the 9K37M Buk-M1, were both developed in the 1980s. While the missiles are still potent, their sensors are designed to detect, identifiy and track fast-moving fighters, and their moving-target indicators disregard small, slow drones. Like many 1980s systems, a lot of computing is predetermined by hardware layout, and reprogramming requires an extensive refit of the entire system, which the Armenians had not done. These systems are also incapable of plot-fusion: accumulating and combining raw radar echoes from different radars into one aggregated situation report. Plot-fusion is essential to detecting small and low-observable targets such as advanced drones or stealth aircraft. None of the export versions of Russia’s air-defence systems that it has sold to Syria, Turkey, North Korea, and Iran are capable of plot-fusion. (In the latter two cases, these are disguised as ‘indigenous’ systems like the Raad or Bavar 373.) There is therefore a huge difference in performance between Russian air-defence systems protecting Russian bases in Armenia and Syria and those Russian air-defence systems exported to Armenia and Syria.

    Azerbaijan’s drones roamed free because Armenia had no jammer able to interrupt the signals linking the drones to their guidance stations. Only in the last days of the war did Russia use the Krasukha electronic warfare system based at the Armenian city of Gyumri to interdict Azeri deep reconnaissance in Armenia proper. Still, the Azeris also used the Israeli Harop loitering munition, which was able to work under adverse conditions (although at reduced effectiveness) as it does not, unlike drones. require a guidance link. Hence among armies that are likely to prepare to fight wars in the future – not only the US, China, Russia but regional powers such as Turkey, Israel, and South Africa – this experience will certainly prompt further research into artificial intelligence and autonomous lethal weapons systems. Rather than banning this class of ammunition by a prohibitive arms control treaty, as envisioned by Europe, they will experiment with how to make use of the new technologies and best integrate autonomous lethal weapons systems into their combined-arms manoeuvre forces, thereby increasing their operational tempo and effectiveness.

    Lesson 3: Fight ‘around’ the enemy’s strength

    Before the war, on a tactical level the Armenian army was superior: it had better officers, more motivated soldiers, and a more agile leadership. In all previous wars with Azerbaijan, this proved to be decisive. But Azerbaijan found a way to work around it. This is where the drones came in: they allowed the Azeris to reconnoitre first the Armenian position and then the placement of reserves. Armenian positions then could be extensively shelled with conventional artillery, weakening their defences. Drones then guided the onslaught towards the Armenian reserves, bringing in artillery, multiple-rocket systems with cluster munitions, their own missiles, or using Israeli-made LORA ballistic missiles to destroy bridges or roads linking the reserves with the front. Once the Armenian side was incapable of sending reserves into battle, the Azeri army could move in any number it wished to overwhelm the isolated Armenian positions. This procedure was repeated day after day, chipping one Armenian position away each day and resupplying artillery during the night.

    This tactic also worked well in mountainous territory the Armenians thought would be easy to defend. In the mountains, there is only one road connecting the front to the rear, which made it even easier for drones to spot targets. When the battle over Shusha demonstrated that the Armenians would not stand a chance even in this territory, the Armenian army started to disintegrate and Yerevan had no choice than to agree a ceasefire on adverse terms.

    In the West, much of the drone discussion has focused on the technical side of drone warfare. But this aspect was less spectacular in this war. The numbers of vehicles claimed to be destroyed are most likely exaggerated – for example, this Azeri-language Sputnik report claims that more tanks were destroyed than the number of tanks Armenia has in active duty. The Azeri tactical use of drones was impressive, as was the way they embedded them in conventional armoured operations to work around the strength of the opponent’s armed forces. This intellectual creativity should probably be assigned to Turkish military advisers, who, by refining Azerbaijan’s way of fighting, contributed as much to Baku’s victory as the delivery of hardware.

    Europe should look carefully at the military lessons of this conflict, and not dismiss it as a minor war between poor countries. Since the cold war, most European armies have phased out gun-based self-propelled air-defence systems. Man-portable air-defence systems (MANPADS) like the Stinger and Igla – the primary short-range air-defence systems in Europe – have little chance of acquiring such small targets like loitering munitions or small drones invisible to the operator. In the recent Nagorno-Karabakh war more MANPADS were destroyed by drones than they could shoot down drones themselves. No European army has a high-resolution sensor-fusion- or plot-fusion-capable armoured air-defence system to protect its own armour. Only France and Germany have (short range) anti-drone jammers and base-protection assets. Most of the EU’s armies – especially those of small and medium-sized member states – would do as miserably as the Armenian army in a modern kinetic war. That should make them think – and worry.

    The European Council on Foreign Relations does not take collective positions. ECFR publications only represent the views of its individual authors."


    https://ecfr.eu/article/military-les...rope-to-worry/

  21. #96
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    ^ Yup, knowing that countries without human rights - like Russia, China etc... - are a threat.

    Well done, WaahWaah

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Russian air-defence systems proved to be ineffective against small and slow drones.
    Well that must hurt after you've spent so long trying to convince us how fucking brilliant they are.


  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Well that must hurt after you've spent so long trying to convince us how fucking brilliant they are.
    Ah, Russia and China . . . are they up to 96% effectiveness for their covid vaccine or will they wait to 'one-up' the next numbers?

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Well that must hurt after you've spent so long trying to convince us how fucking brilliant they are.

    That part of the article is dumb. There was no Pantsir air defense units in the conflict. Of course the anti aircraft systems don't work against pissy little drones. Like using an axe for a scalpel.

    Where there is Pantsir systems ?

    Libya becomes graveyard for Turkish drones as 3 more shot down. By. ... (GNA), as they lost dozens of these aircraft throughout the northern part of the country. ..


    Libyan War Claimed 25 Large military Drones in 2020
    Last edited by Backspin; 01-12-2020 at 10:20 PM.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Ah, Russia and China . . . are they up to 96% effectiveness for their covid vaccine or will they wait to 'one-up' the next numbers?
    So about the same as the US one.

    The Russian vaccine was available before the US one. And the effectiveness number was reported before the US one. You utter plonk.

    Pfizer says COVID vaccine 95% effective, will seek FDA's okay "within days" - CBS News

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