Thread: The removal of Hamilton's statue (NZ) is only the start, we should tear them all down

Originally Posted by lom

Overall, we rate

We?

It must be an "exceptional" rating agency.

Maybe "the greatest in the world".

Situated in the "land of the Free".

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

hardly slavery and colonial oppression times

So the US slavery stopped when, yesterday?

Originally Posted by panama hat

hardly slavery and colonial oppression times

I hope you read the whole article and not just the headline.

Originally Posted by OhOh

So the US slavery stopped when, yesterday?

Before KFC was founded.

Other than that, consult a history book maybe.

Originally Posted by OhOh

So the US slavery stopped when, yesterday?

Although based in France, Josephine Baker supported the Civil Rights Movement during the 1950s. When she arrived in New York with her husband Jo, they were refused reservations at 36 hotels because of racial discrimination. She was so upset by this treatment that she wrote articles about the segregation in the United States. She also began traveling into the South. She gave a talk at Fisk University, a historically black college in Nashville, Tennessee, on "France, North Africa And The Equality Of The Races In France".[34]

She refused to perform for segregated audiences in the United States, although she was offered $10,000 by a Miami club.[4] (The club eventually met her demands). Her insistence on mixed audiences helped to integrate live entertainment shows in Las Vegas, Nevada.[7] After this incident, she began receiving threatening phone calls from people claiming to be from the Ku Klux Klan but said publicly that she was not afraid of them.[34]

In 1951, Baker made charges of racism against Sherman Billingsley's Stork Club in Manhattan, where she had been refused service.[39][40] Actress Grace Kelly, who was at the club at the time, rushed over to Baker, took her by the arm and stormed out with her entire party, vowing never to return (although she returned on 3 January 1956 with Prince Rainier of Monaco). The two women became close friends after the incident.[41]
---
she started touring to entertain British, French, and American soldiers in North Africa. The Free French had no organized entertainment network for their troops, so Baker and her entourage managed for the most part on their own. They allowed no civilians and charged no admission.[34]

After the war, Baker received the Croix de guerre and the Rosette de la Résistance. She was made a Chevalier of the Légion d'honneur by General Charles de Gaulle.[36]
---
She received a full Roman Catholic funeral that was held at L'Église de la Madeleine.[58][62][63] The only American-born woman to receive full French military honors at her funeral, Baker's funeral was the occasion of a huge procession. After a family service at Saint-Charles Church in Monte Carlo,[64] Baker was interred at Monaco's Cimetière de Monaco


Josephine Baker - Wikipedia

It's very cute that OhNo asks a question and Klondyke pops up to answer it with pictures of Josephine Baker

why do we have statues of "famous" people ?

Who "are" you "quoting" with "famous"?

Or is it the "Chinese" pretending to "be" a Brit and "Canadian" disease

Originally Posted by OhOh

"exceptional"

Originally Posted by OhOh

"the greatest in the world"

Originally Posted by OhOh

"land of the Free"

because "famous" is what exactly ?

the whims of lickspittles ?

Originally Posted by baldrick

the whims of lickspittles ?

"Yes"

If there's anything more hysterical than a Boomer who feels their hegemony is threatened by others having the same rights as them then it's a right-wing conservative Xtian Boomer who feels their hegemony is threatened by others having the same rights as them:

Twitter Dunks On Conservative For Saying "Statues Of Jesus Are Next" To Come Down

he heart of Hamilton was once graced with a statue of the city’s namesake, Captain John Fane Charles Hamilton. It was a gift from the world-famous Gallagher Group, founded in Hamilton in the 1930s, to commemorate the company’s 75th anniversary

In a move that has made headlines in England, Hamilton City Council gave in to threats by serial activist, vandal and whinger, Taitimu Maipi, to take down the statue. “This guy here”, Maipi said of the statue, “he murders all of our people at the Battle of Gate Pa and he gets a statue celebrating his achievements.”

Others chimed in. Kip Ormsby said the statue needed to be removed from public areas because it represented a painful time in history for Maori. “We believe he is responsible for a lot of the atrocities that happened to our people”. The New Zealand Herald declared Hamilton “killed Maori in the Waikato land war”.

The statue would be understandably offensive if those claims were true. But they are lies.

The Facts

John Hamilton was Captain of HMS Esk, which arrived at Tauranga on 21 April 1864, having been sent to reinforce General Sir Duncan Alexander Cameron in preparation for moving against Maori rebels in the Waikato.

NZHistory.govt.nz notes Governor Grey had given strict instructions that local Maori who were neutral were not to be provoked. However, Ngai Te Rangi leader Rawiri Puhirake decided to attack the British.
After various skirmishes, including attacks on settlers, Puhirake built Gate Pa to draw the British out of their redoubts into a cleverly designed ambush.

During the battle, Captain Hamilton led a storming party consisting of “the second division of blue-jackets and the gallant 43rd”. As a naval officer, Hamilton was armed with a sword. He sprung upon the parapet, and shouting “follow me, men!”, dashed into the fight. That moment was his last. He fell dead, pierced through the brain by a bullet, and many of his officers shared the same fate.

Hamilton was in New Zealand for 12 hours. He did not even fire a shot, and did not get close enough to fight anyone. What were the atrocities he committed? Whom did he murder? This was not even the Waikato Land War. The accusations against Hamilton are false.

We could choose to see this as an atrocity committed by Maori, resulting in the deaths of 35 British soldiers. With the distance of 156 years, I choose to see it as clever tactics by an innovative Maori leader, and worthy of celebration.

Instead, a bunch of undeniably racist luddites have fabricated a narrative to claim offence against the memory of a white man. There will always be elements in society, of all colours, who behave this way. The only real offence is that the council gave into them.
An obvious solution would have been for the council to educate the protesters and the public about the truth. Hamilton died bravely, carrying out his orders. That can both be celebrated and used as a lesson on the foolhardiness of “duty”.
Another obvious solution would be to commemorate Maori leaders with a statue as balance, adding to our public spaces rather than destroying our history. The Maori siege engineering was considered revolutionary for its time, and could be used to encourage a self-belief in Maori innovation.
Instead the Hamilton City Council CEO chose to pander to the corrupt and idiotic woke radicals, removing the statue without consulting the elected councilors.
Worse, in doing so, he has diminished real grievances, as the general populace grow tired of pretence at offence over trivial matters.\

Hamilton Statue – the Facts | The BFD

Originally Posted by sabang

The Facts

^^ Written by:

Guest Post
A guest post submitted to the BFD and edited by the BFD staff. Guest Post content does not necessarily reflect the views of the site or its editor. Guest Post content is offered for discussion and for alternative points of view.

Needless to say it's about as factual as any piece of racially-tinged right-wing wank revisionism can be.

If these people are so concerned about protecting history then why do they keep promoting lies about it.

^ True, but it's getting a bit silly here as well now, even for me and I'm by no means right-wing, anti-history etc . . . so, if some things are starting to bother me I can imagine how many others feel who have a greater attachment to NZ life and country.

Recalcitrants get louder and more mouthy, the other mob gets more entitled and demanding - a vicous circle where 'normal' people are getting dragged into it thanks to the media and feckless politicians whose sole aim is to be re-elected . . . eg Ardern

This thread would be funny if it was in Harry's Formula One 2020

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

This thread would be funny if it was in Harry's Formula One 2020

This thread would be funny if it was in another unrelated thread?

Huh?

Yeah not quite getting that one either...?

Hamilton the city cf. Hamilton the driver?

^This Hamilton, probably.

Originally Posted by panama hat

^ True, but it's getting a bit silly here as well now, even for me and I'm by no means right-wing, anti-history etc . . . so, if some things are starting to bother me I can imagine how many others feel who have a greater attachment to NZ life and country.

Recalcitrants get louder and more mouthy, the other mob gets more entitled and demanding - a vicous circle where 'normal' people are getting dragged into it thanks to the media and feckless politicians whose sole aim is to be re-elected . . . eg Ardern

It's divisive by design, largely planned and funded by people like bankster's frontman George Soros, and his "open foundations". The 1% pretending to be on the side of the 99%.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Needless to say it's about as factual as any piece of racially-tinged right-wing wank revisionism can be.

If these people are so concerned about protecting history then why do they keep promoting lies about it.

I have never known much about NZ history. I have an open mind and it is difficult to form an opinion when sabang posts an apparently factual piece and you dismiss it as wank revisionism.

Sabang's link Hamilton Statue – the Facts | The BFD quotes a number of sources which make interesting reading.

Who was Captain John Hamilton? The navy commander who never set foot in the city that took his name | Stuff.co.nz

The Daily Southern Cross of May 31, 1864, described the battle in detail.

When the defences were breached, "the second division of blue jackets and the gallant 43rd, led by Captain Hamilton of the Esk, advanced with a ringing cheer".

"Captain Hamilton sprang upon the parapet, and shouting 'follow me, men!' dashed into the fight. That moment was his last. He fell dead, pierced through the brain by a bullet."

Hamilton was buried in Tauranga, in the Mission Cemetery. Other British and Māori victims of this battle and the following one at Te Ranga are also buried there.

Warships in Tauranga Harbour (1864) - Battles of Gate Pa & Te Ranga (1864) - Tauranga Memories

HMS Esk (1854-1870)

She was sent to the Australian Station and then on to New Zealand where she arrived on 3 November 1863, taking part in the 'Thames Expedition'. From 22 May 1863 to 29 April 1864 she was commanded by Captain John Fane Charles Hamilton until he was killed during the Battle of Gate Pa. From 22 May 1863 to 29 April 1864 she was commanded by Captain John Fane Charles Hamilton until he was killed during the Battle of Gate Pa. Captain John Proctor Luce then took over her command from Australia.

HMS Esk arrived at Tauranga on 21 April 1864 with General Sir Duncan Alexander Cameron along with his staff and reinforcements. Their headquarters were established at Te Papa.

So looking again at the article from sabang, I understand that:

Hamilton was in New Zealand for 12 hours - Not true. He arrived in New Zealand on 3 November 1863 and in Tauranga on 21 April 1864.
He did not even fire a shot - True.
and did not get close enough to fight anyone - True.

Yes the conservative press is inciting division. No need to help their cause by dismissing everything they write as 'promoting lies'.

[QUOTE=AntRobertson;4124320
And even assuming it is partly or even all true then surely it makes the case it is arguing against: why have a statue of a man who never visited the place and is notable mostly for being on the losing side of a battle and getting shot dead before even taking part. Why commemorate a loser who has no connection to the place and who represents what he does. Makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

Yes, we can agree on that.

Originally Posted by sabang

Promoting what lies? Name one.

Half the shit in that shitty op-ed you posted.

Originally Posted by sabang

Protecting history is sure better than attempting to erase or rewrite it

Quit the melodramatics Boomer.

It's a statue not history.

Originally Posted by sabang

Protecting history is sure better than attempting to erase or rewrite it

I keep asking this and I have yet to get an answer. Noodles made this claim as well (but then again he does that shit a lot).

Who exactly is rewriting history? Can you give an example?

(* Other than Russia, Chinastan and North Korea, or other like-minded dictatorships).