Thread: UK shuts the door to unskilled migrants

Sorry mate but I have to agree, she got there by being a woman, a blackish minority, a refugee, and as you say ticking the right boxes, nothing to do with skills or suitability.

Also, she is a terrible little liar. She puts it about that her parents were booted out of Uganda by the Amin regime which is quite untrue, they left several years beforehand simply as economic migrants taking advantage of lax immigration laws for Commonwealth citizens seeking settlement in the UK.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

She puts it about that her parents were booted out of Uganda by the Amin regime

Where has she "put that about" then?

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Where has she "put that about" then?

She said it in Marr's interview.

Says it most times when her biog is rehearsed.

Makes it more dramatic and she can curry kudos from it .....excuse the pun.

You are posting on a thread about greater immigration control, and criticizing the minister responsible for greater control, but you then claim she got in under lax immigration policy.

..... and there you have it. spot on.

and the sooner obstructive civil servants, self serving mandarins and incompetent humphreys with their own agendas are shown the door the better. thats why cummings, boris' witchfinder general, needs to get on with his work and clear out the shit before he too oversteps the mark and gets his marching orders.

it is government that makes and enforces policy, not the civil servants, servants being the operative word, and it is government that will succeed or fail according to the wishes of the electorate who vote on the success or failure of those policies.

Originally Posted by taxexile

..... and there you have it. spot on.

and the sooner obstructive civil servants, self serving mandarins and incompetent humphreys with their own agendas are shown the door the better. thats why cummings, boris' witchfinder general, needs to get on with his work and clear out the shit before he too oversteps the mark and gets his marching orders.

it is government that makes and enforces policy, not the civil servants, servants being the operative word, and it is government that will succeed or fail according to the wishes of the electorate who vote on the success or failure of those policies.

Usual drivel from chair bound blimps pontificating from their fundament of prejudiced ignorance.

Parliament legislates according to whichever policies the government decides are congruent to their manifestos. Once enabled, such powers that are conferred by the legislation are executed by whichever minister has the authority to do so and this is realised by the department over which he exerts that authority. The departmental head, usually the permanent secretary, is responsible for oversight of the executive function that he administers on behalf of his minister.

No-one within any civil service department has authority to dictate policy to their minister. The civil servant serves, that is their function. The clue Tax is in the fucking job title. The minister decides.

The civil servant also has a duty to advise and inform their minister of outcomes, good, bad and indifferent. In the final analyses the minister is presented with options - they decide which one to implement, not the civil servant.

Pretty basic stuff but it is really quite amusing just how many actually think fictional television is the actualitè.

The problems arise when one has a minister who is foisted onto a department not on the basis of merit but on purely political grounds who is not only stupid, obdurate, and obtuse but who is also bad-mannered and a bully. Now, we all know these vices tend to manifest themselves in those lacking in skill, talent and expertise who in truth are really concealing an inferiority complex that they have developed because they know they are crap but nevertheless are ambitious for power and money.

Patel the Gujarati immigrant shopkeeper's daughter is unfortunately the worst. A useless deadhead, over promoted by virtue of her gender and ethnicity,, but with a chip on her shoulder because she is outclassed by most of her advisers, and she knows it.

I have worked with bullies in the past and there is a protocol one can observe but as it is in the playground so it is elsewhere - if you stand up to them they shrink but with politicians the dynamic is different. Confrontation and telling them to fuck off is not conducive to career progress. So, one simply has to bide one's time, set traps, lay landmines and, best of all, lure them into a resignation scenario simply by letting them have their head, and of course one discloses confidential material publicising their shortcomings and injudicious behaviour.

Patel and Cummings are heading for a fall but the problem is, the damage they can, and will, do may be irreversible.

Tax, not wanting cheap immigrants from third world countries is one thing, but letting college educated immigrants in is another

Originally Posted by jabir

Sorry mate but I have to agree, she got there by being a woman, a blackish minority, a refugee, and as you say ticking the right boxes, nothing to do with skills or suitability.

doesn't that sum up the whole political landscape of UK MPs?

Originally Posted by taxexile

it is the staff who are the servants, not the minister.

actually not true, since Minister comes and goes, only the permanent servants create the continuity of the office, and are the glue that holds everything together, in that regard, they are the key to a functioning Ministry

Ministers are PR people, or political clown if you prefer, they usually set an agenda they will never achieve, hence why all the permanent staff and secretaries at the Ministry can't take them seriously

basically a circus where the animals are the adults in the room, and the ministers the clowns

they are the key to a functioning Ministry

loyalty to the minister is the key to a functioning ministry.

Originally Posted by taxexile

loyalty to the minister is the key to a functioning ministry.

no it's not, in what fooking world are you living in

you would do well in Thailand patronage system

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

no it's not, in what fooking world are you living in

you would do well in Thailand patronage system

He’s not living in a theoretical world like you are. For civil SERVANTS to be effective they need to be flexible and adapt to the minister, who is charged with meeting the needs of the electorate.

The electorate put a political party in charge of the country. It is not for minions to impede progress, but to adapt to it. They are paid to work for whoever is in charge.

The clear mandate of the government is to Get Brexit Done. Any government employee that in good faith cannot get behind the considerable effort involved, needs to resign. Any government employee who tries to sabotage or slow down the effort, needs to be sacked- possibly even Tried if they are in a senior position. It is called treason. It's that simple, and has nothing to do with your/ their own personal views on Brexit.

Originally Posted by taxexile

nonsense.



the problems arise, s.a. not when the staff have a minister "foisted" on them but when the minister i.e. the person in charge, is burdened with obstinate, rebellious and contumacious staff who, thanks to their political leanings or personal dislike for their superior have no real desire to see policy enacted and hence act in a way that gums up the works, delays progress and generally renders the minister ineffectual.

it is the staff who are the servants, not the minister.

its the same in any organisation where staff who have organised their own comfy little kingdoms resent any newcomer that wishes to overhaul procedure or rock the boat and will do anything to make life difficult for the incumbent.

patel may very well be a hard person to like, but she has an agenda, and those that work for her are obliged to help her enable that agenda.

if they cant or seek to impede that agenda because of their personal views, then they are unfit for the job and should fuck off.


and thats where cummings comes in.

now do you understand?

You continually miss the point. Patel is seeking to impose a new regime that is simply not possible to introduce in the manner that is imagined in the time available. She refuses to accept the reality but prefers to have a tantrum and demand that her officials perform in a manner that is not desirable, workable or even possible. She is the stupidest Home Secretary in living memory and in her incompetence she is determined to introduce a system the consequences of which she cannot understand, never mind even see despite being told countless times.

You in your imbecility seem to be implying civil servants are reluctant to implement her ill-conceived plans out of personal pique or preference. Clearly, you have no comprehension of government to say such a daft thing . Officials are there to serve, as I have already painstakingly explained, but if the policy proposed is a cack-handed, half-arsed, ragbag distillation of initiatives pandering to the lumpen and the bigoted which will take at least two years to design, test, refine, publicise, implement and then reform, it is incumbent upon her officials to tell her so.

But the thing is, there is no one in the current cabinet who has a functioning brain and the spine to stand up to BoJo and say his twaddle, piffle-waffle is nonsense and cannot be introduced in the time frame proposed, a limit that he has imposed simply to conform with his idiotic notion all negotiations must cease on 31.12.20.

You simply cannot impose such a radical change of immigration policy in one year on a society that has constructed its business sector out of employment policies that have developed over the past 47 years. Well, you can but it will not work properly, it will not be what people want, it will not the serve the needs of society, it will not aid growth and it certainly will not ensure more profits.

We are in the Age of The Stupid and it seems everyone on the wrong side of the Brxit divide, the Leavers, are devoted to its doctrine of ignorance and ineptitude.

Patel's stupid realisation of Brexit hysteria and bigotry will be a dog's breakfast but like all stupid, vain and talentless tenth rate politicians she cannot accept she is wrong and that she must return to the Clown and say that the much vaunted Australian system is a load of bollocks for a Britain which had the advantage of drawing on a labour reservoir meeting its societal needs only 22 fucking miles away and with the minimum of bureaucracy.

You really do eat up BoJo's propagandising drivel, don't you Tax.

Not only do we now have the stupid rhetoric that all Britain's social ills stemmed from its EU membership but we must also endure the nonsensical pap that the country's civil servants have conspired to keep the people down and to thwart the re-birth of Great Imperial Britannia.

Personally, for me, that this government of Orcs is turning Britain into a Grand Guignol of farces is quite entertaining but, Tax, you really shouldn't be such a silly ass in falling hook, line and sinker for this Tory nonsense.

Originally Posted by sabang

The clear mandate of the government is to Get Brexit Done. Any government employee that in good faith cannot get behind the considerable effort involved, needs to resign. Any government employee who tries to sabotage or slow down the effort, needs to be sacked- possibly even Tried if they are in a senior position. It is called treason. It's that simple, and has nothing to do with your/ their own personal views on Brexit.

it's one thing to get the job done, another to follow stupid orders doing stupid things that will sabotage everything in the process

civil servants are loyal to the state, or the Queen in the UK case, not the 'temp' minister who is clueless about anything and could be dangerous to the integrity of the system

yes, get Brexit done, in a meaningful and orderly way, not to throw cahos to your enemies and sabotage your own country in the process, like Boris ministers seem to be doing

Originally Posted by Switch

He’s not living in a theoretical world like you are. For civil SERVANTS to be effective they need to be flexible and adapt to the minister, who is charged with meeting the needs of the electorate.

The electorate put a political party in charge of the country. It is not for minions to impede progress, but to adapt to it. They are paid to work for whoever is in charge.

again, permanent civil servants are the wheels of the system, when the driver starts acting like a lunatic or don't even know how to drive, it's their duty to keep the system integrity by stopping the wheels

it's their duty to keep the system integrity by stopping the wheels

thats the duty of the ministers boss, not the ministers minions.

Officials are there to serve, as I have already painstakingly explained, but if the policy proposed is a cack-handed, half-arsed, ragbag distillation of initiatives pandering to the lumpen and the bigoted which will take at least two years to design, test, refine, publicise, implement and then reform, it is incumbent upon her officials to tell her so.

then it would seem that they are clearly not there to serve, but to judge, and then act on their own opinions.
and if they have given their advice to the minister, and the minister wishes to ignore that advice, then the civil servants should simply resign saying that they are unable to carry out the wishes of the minister.

in the end, it will be the minister or the pm who is responsible, and it is the country that will pass judgement.

yeah, the PM is an irresponsible clown, so the permanent secretaries are on their own to save the country, perfectly legitimate

their duty is to the state, not the 'temp' representative

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

the stupid led by the trumpeting of buffoons dancing to the tune of imbecility.

A brilliant description of the CS attitude which has prevailed for decades.
Recacitrant barely covers their holier than thou approach to work. Of course it will not be easy to implement a new system of immigration. Perhaps the solution is to farm out routine duties to the private sector, if the perm sec insists that what the minister wants is not achievable by a hamstrung, self congratulatory service based on honours and awards for the PS.
Just do the fucking job they are paid for, and quit quibbling over basic detail, easily completed by half arsed incompetent clerks.

It is not the PS remit to tell a minister of state that something cannot be done. They may offer advice on how to do it better, but at the days end, they are there to meet the ministers needs, not the other way around.

For the benefit of the moron dragonfly, the civil service works for whichever government minister is appointed to lead them, to implement government policy. Nothing more, nothing less. In your case skilled immigration will never apply

^^ Wrong, and wrong again.

The Home Civil Service is a politically neutral body, with the function of impartially implementing the policy programme of the elected government.[29][30][31]


Like all servants of the Crown, civil servants are legally barred from standing for election as Members of Parliament.[32] Also, under regulations first adopted in 1954 and revised in 1984, members of the Senior Civil Service (the top management grades) are barred from holding office in a political party or publicly expressing controversial political viewpoints, while less senior civil servants at an intermediate (managerial) level must generally seek permission to participate in political activities. The most junior civil servants are permitted to participate in political activities, but must be politically neutral in the exercise of their duties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...nited_Kingdom)


In the UK at least, this is a very fundamental principle. We don't tolerate would be Mandarins.

Public service - their real power

is that s.a's dad?