Thread: Magnetic North MOVES 55km per year

Compasses become redundant as Magnetic North MOVES 55km per year – no-one knows why

Precision of where the North Pole is needed for GPS across the globe, and currently is is close to exceeding “the acceptable (safe) limit for navigational errors,” the journal Nature reports.

Arnaud Chulliat, a geomagnetist at the University of Colorado Boulder and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s (NOAA’s) National Centers for Environmental Information, said: “The error is increasing all the time.

The researchers say that the pole is moving by 34 miles (55km) a year, and it has been becoming more unpredictable for the past 100 years.

While there is no solid explanation as to why it is happening, scientists believe it could be due to a massive section of liquid iron shifting in the planet’s interior.

Nature reports: “The fast motion of the north magnetic pole could be linked to a high-speed jet of liquid iron beneath Canada.”

Phil Livermore of the University of Leeds told an American Geophysical Union meeting: “The location of the north magnetic pole appears to be governed by two large-scale patches of magnetic field, one beneath Canada and one beneath Siberia.

“The Siberian patch is winning the competition.”



The shift could also be due to a possible impending pole reversal, where north becomes south and vice versa.

In recent years, scientists have been gearing up for a potential flip in the magnetic field – a natural phenomena which occurs every 200,000 to 300,000 years when the north and south poles switch.

The poles attempted to swap 40,000 years ago but the process failed.

As a result, the last time the poles switched place was 780,000 years ago, meaning we are long overdue a pole reversal.

Scientists have warned that once the process has begun, it could take 1,000 years to complete.

During that time, Earth’s magnetic field will be compromised leaving living beings on the planet vulnerable to an increased dosage of radiation from the sun.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...siberia-moving

we are fucked, all because of Trump and his anti-climate change campaign

Originally Posted by Klondyke

Precision of where the North Pole is needed for GPS across the globe,

I didn't realise Magnetic north was required for GPS. I thought it was all about triangulation from satelites. True North will always be True North.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

it could take 1,000 years to complete

Civilization as we know it is about to end... 1,000 years of lost packages - sure to be the death of Amazon...

Originally Posted by Maanaam

I didn't realise Magnetic north was required for GPS. I thought it was all about triangulation from satelites. True North will always be True North.

Maanaam
Once again you have surprised me. To be able to obtain the true position of the triangulation of the satellites you need reference points to locate them, hence the north pole.
If you didn't have that all you would know is where the triangulation point is in relation to the 3 satellites.

Every time I went to work at a new underground mine I had to establish in my head where true North was as most mines don't align their "North" with true north but rather with the strike of the orebody as that then made it easier to set up the grid pattern.

As a matter of interest a change in RL in an underground mine is usually set up to be positive going down rather than up, this saves all the negative signs in front of the RL's.
Zero is usually set at the local surface level.

Cheers

Clever dick.

Originally Posted by ootai

To be able to obtain the true position of the triangulation of the satellites you need reference points to locate them, hence the north pole.
If you didn't have that all you would know is where the triangulation point is in relation to the 3 satellites.

OK, thanks. Always good to be informed when not knowing something. Cheers.

Pigeons will be confused for a while. They actually do have a tiny amount of magnetic material in their brains, believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Latindancer

Pigeons will be confused for a while. They actually do have a tiny amount of magnetic material in their brains, believe it or not.

As do Robins.

Yes let the poles switch. It will shut the climate change whingers up for a few hundred years.

Originally Posted by ootai

To be able to obtain the true position of the triangulation of the satellites you need reference points to locate them, hence the north pole.

I really do not know much about this, however, in my understanding, a position of a stationary satelite does not change towards a place on the Earth. Hence, no need to locate it towards the North Pole, once it is really stationary.

That's why my TV can still receive the signals from the satelite that has not changed its position towards my antena for years.

However, any positioning of new satelites - (7,000 for Mr. Musk) will surely need some corrections. I suppose that the people who are in the satelite business are well aware of the problem, they are not surprised by a discovery of a journo (or a clever thread in a forum)...

The tower of the church in the town of my birth has been there since the 13th century. That should do for one ground point. The pyramids for another. Soon we would have triangulation.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

I believe some migratory birds use the magnetic field for orientation. I wonder how they will do, when it happens.

They'll probably have time to adjust.


While some estimate that it can reverse within a human lifetime, the average length of time for reversal is 1,000-10,000 years.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

The tower of the church in the town of my birth has been there since the 13th century. That should do for one ground point. The pyramids for another. Soon we would have triangulation.

It is necessary to know their position to sub meter precision. Any structure will do as long as the underground does not shift. Don't build them in a swamp or on a glacier. There are a number of GPS locatons with the necessary equipment spread around the world, used by the GPS satellites as reference points, as far as I understand.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

I didn't realise Magnetic north was required for GPS. I thought it was all about triangulation from satelites.

Originally Posted by ootai

Maanaam
Once again you have surprised me.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

there is no connection between GPS and the magnetic pole.

Sorry Ootai, I'm going with Takeovers on this. But I was totally taking your better knowledge than mine. It still is, on navigation, no doubt, just not on this wee topic.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Sorry Ootai, I'm going with Takeovers on this. But I was totally taking your better knowledge than mine. It still is, on navigation, no doubt, just not on this wee topic.

Originally Posted by Maanaam (Magnetic North MOVES 55km per year)
I didn't realise Magnetic north was required for GPS. I thought it was all about triangulation from satelites.




Originally Posted by ootai (Magnetic North MOVES 55km per year)
Maanaam
Once again you have surprised me.




Originally Posted by Takeovers (Magnetic North MOVES 55km per year)
there is no connection between GPS and the magnetic pole.



Sorry Ootai, I'm going with Takeovers on this. But I was totally taking your better knowledge than mine. It still is, on navigation, no doubt, just not on this wee topic.

QUOTE =ootai
Maanaam
Once again you have surprised me. To be able to obtain the true position of the triangulation of the satellites you need reference points to locate them, hence the north pole.
If you didn't have that all you would know is where the triangulation point is in relation to the 3 satellites.

Maanaam
I am going to do to you what you do to others and that is ask you to show me where I said anything about "magnetic pole"?
I said GPS needs a reference point so the satellites can locate there positions relative to each other and back to the fixed reference point on the earth's surface.
As far as I understand the North pole and magnetic north have never been the same thing.


I am sorry I have not learned how to include multiple quotes in a reply yet so you will just have to make do with this.

Originally Posted by bowie

Folks, forewarned is prepared so...

Well, prepare yourselves. Few people realize that the magnetic pole swap is going to eclipse the multitude of problems and destruction we experienced during the y2k calamity. I remember it well; famine, airplanes falling out of the sky, trains coming to a screeching halt, banks collapsing, people starving in the streets, rioting, looting, the masses in wanton destruction… yup, civilization barely survived.

And now they tell us the magnetic poles are gonna swap yet True North ain’t budgin’, the nerve.

Well, few folk are going to notice the North Pole South Pole flip – gonna cause havoc amongst the polar bears and penguins though. What’ll take us all a long time to get used to is the sun rising in the West and setting in the East. Now, when this happens most of our toilets are gonna overflow. Yup, toilets are flush rotation sensitive. If they used to flushed in a CW rotation, after the pole swap, they’re gonna hafta flush in a CCW rotation. Just ain’t gonna work.

Yes, big problems with flush rotation sensitive toilets, primarily the western style flush toilets. All gonna have to be replaced. Not too big a problem in the East (well, then it’ll be the West) because very few squat toilets are rotation sensitive. But, in the West (or future East) big problems. So, yea, gotta change most of the flush toilets. Let’s not even venture into the vertical sewer pipe fiasco.

Now’s a very good time to buy “American Standard” and “Cotto” stock.

bowie
I am calling bullshit on this theory of yours as the direction of flushing is causes by the rotation of the earth not the magnetic field.
The world ain't gonna flip over.

It will be handled exactly the same way as the error was regarding electricity. It was thought that the postive charge "flowed" but then it was discovered that the negative charge (electrons) were what actually caused the electricity to "flow".

So the north pole can still be the north pole but instead of the magnetic field flowing to the north pole it will flow from it or vice versa.

Originally Posted by ootai

Maanaam
I am going to do to you what you do to others and that is ask you to show me where I said anything about "magnetic pole"?

No, all good. No need to argue over he said she said. It was just an impression I got from you saying you were surprised at my thought that magnetic north was not needed for GPS. You appeared to be correcting me, which I accepted at the time.
It's no biggie Ootai.

BTW, if you highlight the sentence/word you want to quote, then click "Quote selected text" it will do just that, and you can do it as many times as you need for more quotes.

Originally Posted by Luigi

They'll probably have time to adjust.

OK, let’s do the math, the earths polar circumference is 40,000 km, the magnetic field is moving at 55 km per annum.

40,000/55 = 727 years.

What's the worry, plenty of time to find my Tin Foil Hat.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Agree, there is no connection between GPS and the magnetic pole.

Yes and no is my answer, or it depends on how you've set up your GPS.

GPS systems provide the user with latitude, longitude and altitude information. Lat/Long is referenced to true North so position is with respect to true north and not magnetic north. However, marine and aeronautical maps are created with magnetic North as reference. All runway thresholds (the two numbers on each end of the runway) are with reference to magnetic North. You can set up your GPS to output heading with respect to magnetic North or True North.

The magnetic earth model is updated on aircraft every 5 years to allow for the drift of magnetic north.

Originally Posted by bowie

But, when the magnetic fields reverse, just about all our stereo speakers are gonna be silenced, and the maglev trains are gonna stop dead in their tracks. It’s not gonna be pretty.

Originally Posted by Troy

Yes and no is my answer, or it depends on how you've set up your GPS.

GPS systems provide the user with latitude, longitude and altitude information. Lat/Long is referenced to true North so position is with respect to true north and not magnetic north. However, marine and aeronautical maps are created with magnetic North as reference. All runway thresholds (the two numbers on each end of the runway) are with reference to magnetic North. You can set up your GPS to output heading with respect to magnetic North or True North.

The magnetic earth model is updated on aircraft every 5 years to allow for the drift of magnetic north.

What you are saying is that one application using GPS as one component does not work. That is not the same as GPS failing.