Thread: Bali Executions

Originally Posted by Looper

it is only common sense

Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.

Period.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Which is why of course there are no murders in the U.S. States which impose the death penalty........

Elementary stupidity, eh Looper?

Not a valid argument, most murders, like assaults are heat of the moment crimes.
Premeditated, cold blood killings are rare in comparison, a bar fight can not be counted the same as a killer who plans and executes a crime.

Deterrents sentences work well in some areas, compare bank robberies to street robberies, rob a bank and you will do real time.
Shoplifting to burglary, technically shoplifters who steal with premeditation commit burglary, but the sentencing does not reflect that.

Is your hobby angling for red herrings?

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Originally Posted by Looper

it is only common sense

Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.

Period.

I have already addressed this issue in another post elsewhere but it bears repeating: the statistics show that in comparable sized US states sharing the same demography the murder rate in those with the death penalty is the same or higher than those without the death penalty.

The issue is well documented and only the obdurate or just plain stupid would argue otherwise.

The Indonesians are a typical S.E.Asian state in that their society is crude, ignorant, largely uneducated, corrupt and hypocritical. Quite how the sanctimonious and priggishly self righteous of the forum could possibly argue these drug couriers deserved their fate beats me.

Just been reading the Brazilian victim was diagnosed as a schizophrenic and manic depressive who was oblivious to his fate until a mere few minutes before his murder.

The rising disgust among the civilised world wil hopefully rebound on those ghastly little savages and their leader Wogadodo. I feel pity for the Balinese who pleaded with the man to cease these murders - ultimately, they will be the long term losers.
I shall never venture there, and if I do meet an Indo in the street I may gave him a clip around his ear.

With sausages ?

Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court


A coffin bearing the body of Indonesian drug convict Zainal Abidin is buried in Cilacap on Wednesday. (AFP Photo/Romeo Gacad)

Jakarta. Zainal Abidin, the sole Indonesian among a batch of eight drug offenders executed on Wednesday, may have been denied justice because of a bureaucratic blunder, the Supreme Court has revealed.

On its website, the final court of appeals said on Thursday that the case review that it received from Zainal — and subsequently rejected two days before he was put to death — had been submitted 10 years late.

The Palembang District Court in South Sumatra initially convicted Zainal in August 2001 to 18 years in prison for possession of 58.7 kilograms of marijuana. Prosecutors, who had sought the death penalty on trafficking charges, mounted an appeal with the Palembang High Court, which duly handed down the death sentence less than a month later.

In May 2005, Zainal’s lawyers filed a case review, or PK, a final form of appeal that is heard by the Supreme Court. In keeping with procedure, the case review was filed with the original court hearing the case, which was expected to forward the case to the Supreme Court.

However, the Palembang District Court did nothing with the case for nearly 10 years, until April 8 this year, when it grew increasingly apparent that Zainal would be among the next batch of inmates to be put to death.

“The Supreme Court’s assistant clerk for special crimes did not receive the PK until April 8, 2015,” chief clerk Soeroso Ono said in the statement on the website.

“That means that from May 2, 2005, until April 2015, the case was not in the hands of the Supreme Court clerk. The Supreme Court had less than a week in which to hear the review, from April 21, 2015, when it reached the judges, to April 27, 2015, when the ruling was handed down.”

Soeroso said it was worrying that the Palembang District Court had failed to forward the case to the Supreme Court for nearly a decade, and urged courts across the country to be more meticulous about sticking with judicial procedures.

However, there was no explanation from the Supreme Court for why it had not sought to stay Zainal’s execution, given that his case review was still being heard when prosecutors notified him about the impending execution.

Legal analysts have also expressed concern that the court’s rejection of the case review may have been influenced by the time pressure that the judges were under, and that had the review been heard in 2005, as it was supposed to, the outcome might have been different.

Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court - The Jakarta Globe

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Legal analysts have also expressed concern that the court’s rejection of the case review may have been influenced by the time pressure that the judges were under, and that had the review been heard in 2005,

More likely a done deal no need for review...

Originally Posted by kingwilly

With sausages ?

Why sausages?

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

^Perhaps one of the highest suicide rates however.

Indonesian Attorney-General Muhammad Prasetyo brushed off Australia's withdrawal of its ambassador as a "temporary reaction", saying the Netherlands and Brazil had done the same when their citizens were executed in January.

^Obviously a case of "don't give a shit."

Alternatively why not let the countries who have capital punishment send the charged to court sentence them, and then let the persons country of origin be responsible for the court charges,and time on remand and the country take on the sentence of the convicted.

Would make both sides happy,as long as there sentence is not shortened.

Because nobody wants the duty of cleaning up someone else's dirty work for one. Secondly, the crime was done in a specific country with specific laws pertaining to that country...can't simplify this and say all's well now, you've given your verdicts so now hand the bottom feeding scum over to their native countries so they can issue release forms within the fortnight.

Pretty naive don't you think?

Not if agreements are made, if they renege don't deal with the country again.

I should go further anyone jailed of such offences should have there assets taken away and made to pay for there time in prison.

Originally Posted by taxexile

Revenge does not solve the problem.

for many of the victims and those hurt by crime it might.

BS! How can it? Mere retribution nothing more, so the problem remains thanks to the narrow-mindedness of so many.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Ronin

Revenge does not solve the problem.

It solves the problem of society's desire for revenge which is a natural human emotion with a sound basis in the evolutionary roots of the human species. Revenge is the natural desire for justice as it is manifested in the human set of emotions.

Mere twaddle: retribution solves nothing as the problem remains - do try thinking out of the box.

Totally irrelevant. Do you have a brain? We are talking specifically about individuals who have committed atrocities because they are emotionally damaged. Putting them out of their misery is an argument in favour of the death penalty.

You are the one without a brain, many people are emotionally damaged in various ways. Try living in the real world Looper or do you desire to be shot when your marriage breaks up?

Originally Posted by Ronin

Executing somebody in America is far more expensive than jailing them.

Not if is expedited within say 12 months.[/QUOTE]

Maybe but that doesn't happen very often to say the least.

Originally Posted by Ronin

BS! How can it? Mere retribution nothing more, so the problem remains thanks to the narrow-mindedness of so many.

Not dealt with many victims I guess, closure for families etc is hard when the face of the criminal appears on TV and newspapers for years after the event.
When they are dead, no appeals, parole boards, no court appearances for crimes while in prison and you will never bump into the criminal on the street in years to come.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Logical fallacy

Got nothing to do with logic. Threat of resultant death is a very powerful deterrent from doing something. That obviously self-evident truth does not need any kind of evidence.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

statistics

Proves nothing whatsoever since there will be many more variables involved than you are citing. The deterrent effect of execution is so obviously a powerful one that it does not even require any further argumentation or evidence. It is self-evident. Also there is a the pleasure of society's revenge and also we will be putting a deranged psycho out of his misery so it's a win-win.

Originally Posted by Ronin

You are the one without a brain, many people are emotionally damaged in various ways.

Got nothing at all to do with the discussion.

Originally Posted by Ronin

retribution solves nothing

It solves the problem of the justifiable desire for retribution.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Maybe but that doesn't happen very often to say the least.

Duh, so we make it happen. Not too bright are you.

Originally Posted by hazz

This is where revenge takes you, its why it has no place in the justice system or society in general.

Revenge and desire for retribution is a reasonable use of the justice system. Its called fairness. If somebody foks you over you want revenge. In the age of the Leviathan you don't take revenge yourself you pursue it through the legal system. Some crimes are so horrific that forfeiting life is a just penalty. The perpetrator does not deserve to enjoy the remainder of their human consciousness timespan. Justice is served and revenge is achieved.

Originally Posted by Looper

Got nothing to do with logic. Threat of resultant death is a very powerful deterrent from doing something. That obviously self-evident truth does not need any kind of evidence.

Bullshit: There is no evidence the death penalty deters, read the statistics and the facts.

Originally Posted by Ronin

You are the one without a brain, many people are emotionally damaged in various ways.

Got nothing at all to do with the discussion.

Read the part in bold.

Originally Posted by Ronin

retribution solves nothing

It solves the problem of the justifiable desire for retribution.

It doesn't, people only imagine it does.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Maybe but that doesn't happen very often to say the least.

Duh, so we make it happen. Not too bright are you.

You are the dunce, all your posts ignore all facts and issues that may be associated with a crime. You are merely parroting your own beliefs and are either unwilling or unable to see further. Your phrase 'so we make it happen' confirms this. You cannot make it happen. That much should be obvious from the numerous media reports around the world unless of course you live in a cave.

^^perhaps you should consider why we have the words revenge, punitive, justice and punishment.

And when on occasion the inevitable occasion the state has killed an innocent person for that horrid crime... what revenge are the family of that victim of cold blooded deliberate state sponsored manslaughter?

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Not dealt with many victims I guess, closure for families etc is hard when the face of the criminal appears on TV and newspapers for years after the event.
When they are dead, no appeals, parole boards, no court appearances for crimes while in prison and you will never bump into the criminal on the street in years to come.

This is the usual bumf: As I have said before if you execute one criminal another will take his/her place. Consider this: they used to hang people for stealing horses. Why did they stop? Answer: it didn't stop people stealing horses.

Originally Posted by hazz

^^perhaps you should consider why we have two words revenge and punishment.

And when on occasion the inevitable occasion the state has killed an innocent person for that horrid crime... what revenge are the family of that victim of cold blooded deliberate state sponsored manslaughter?

You are dead right; one of my beefs with the death penalty is, it is only a matter of time before an innocent party is executed. I wonder what some of these here so much in favour would feel the day are about to executed knowing they are innocent?

Ultimately the death penalty achieves nothing.

It cuts down on immigrant trash, Australia is rid of two of um