Thread: Empire Strikes Back, Russia Announces Sanctions On The West

Originally Posted by zygote1

No one forced Hungary, Romania, Poland, The Baltic states et al to run to the west.

The only thing that forced Crimea to secede, and eastern Ukraine to rebel, was a US sponsored coup. Like most people, I find diplomatic relations easier when things are not forced. Not sure if you're amerkin- but do you think it's fair that Euro's should bear the main economic burden of this folly? I certainly don't.

Originally Posted by sabang

folly

Why do you think this is folly? Are you a supporter of Putin and his armed thugs in Donetsk?

Originally Posted by bsnub

Why do you think this is folly?

I think both the coup and the sanctions were folly. Not much of a prize to 'win'- an indebted, fractured and fighting Ukraine. Also in direct violation of a promise made to Russia, and the same sort of provocation that spurred the Cuban missile crisis. 'tis not Russia that is expansionist.

Originally Posted by sabang

The only thing that forced Crimea to secede, and eastern Ukraine to rebel, was a US sponsored coup

That is a totally one-sided and unrealistic summary of events.

Engaging in political subterfuge to influence outcomes in other countries is underhand but it goes on all the time.

Secession is a legal process involving all concerned parties. What happened in Ukraine was totally illegal. Grabbing land from neigbouring countries and planting your flag on it as sovereign territory is an act of war and Putin is playing a very dangerous and irresponsible game.

amerkin
Merkin
Septic
USanian (new one to me)

^^ Then you're gonna love this bloke.

Will Putin Realize That Russia Holds The Cards? — Paul Craig Roberts


More evidence, about which I hope to write at length, is piling up that Europe has acquiesced to Washington’s drive to war with Russia, a war that is likely to be the final war for humanity. By Russia’s low key and unthreatening response to Washington’s aggression, thereby giving the West the mistaken signal that Russia is weak and fearful, the Russian government has encouraged Washington’s drive to war.
It appears that the Russians’ greatest weakness is that capitalism has raised enough Russians to a comfortable living standard that the war that Washington is bringing to them is scary, and they want to avoid it in order to continue living like decadent Western Europeans.

... But, Putin says, Russia must hold back: “Obviously we need to do it cautiously in order to support domestic manufacturers, but not hurt consumers.”
In other words, Putin wants to impose sanctions that are not really sanctions, but something that looks like tit for tat.
The amazing thing about Russia finding herself on the defensive about sanctions is that Russia, not Washington or the impotent EU, holds all the cards. Putin can bring down the economies of Europe and throw all of Europe into political and economic chaos simply by turning off the energy supply.
Putin would not have to turn off the energy supply for very long before Europe tells Washington good-bye and comes to terms with Russia. The longer Putin waits, the longer Europe has to prepare against Russia’s best weapon that can be used to peacefully resolve the conflict that Washington has orchestrated.
Washington’s aggressive moves against Russia will not stop until Putin realizes that he, not Washington, holds the cards, and plays them.
Will Putin Realize That Russia Holds The Cards? -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org


War Is Coming — Paul Craig Roberts



As horrific as Washington’s recklessness toward the Middle East is, Washington’s recklessness toward Russia is many orders of magnitude greater. Washington has
convinced nuclear armed Russia that Washington is planning a nuclear first strike.
In response Russia is beefing up its nuclear forces and testing US air defense reactions. Russian Strategic Bombers Conduct More Than 16 Incursions of U.S. Air Defense Zones | Washington Free Beacon
It is difficult to imagine a more irresponsible act than to convince Russia that Washington intends to hit Russia with a preemptive first strike. One of Putin’s advisers has explained to the Russian media Washington’s first strike intentions, and a member of the Russian Duma has made a documented presentation of Washington’s first strike intentions. OFFICIAL WARNING - U S to hit RUSSIA with FIRST STRIKE - PREPARE NOW | THE FINANCIAL ARMAGEDDON BLOG By marshaling the evidence, I have pointed out in my columns that it is impossible for Russia to avoid this conclusion.
China is aware that China faces the same threat from Washington. Who Authorized Preparations for War with China? | Yale Journal of International Affairs China’s response to Washington’s war plans against China was to demonstrate how China’s nuclear forces would be used in response to Washington’s attack on China to destroy the US. China made this public, hoping to create opposition among Americans to Washington’s war plans against China. China boasts about new submarine fleet capable of launching nuclear warheads at cities throughout the United States | Mail Online Like Russia, China is a rising country that does not need war in order to succeed.
The only country on earth that needs war is Washington, and that is because Washington’s goal is the neoconservative one of exercising hegemony over the world.
War Is Coming -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

War is not coming.

No G20 nation will ever go to war with another G20 nation for any reason. It is no longer affordable due to the globalised distributed nature of commerce, manufacturing and service provision.

War is a relic of international relations between developed countries.

War is now reserved for poor countries but eventually those countries will be pulled into the sphere of trade and wealth generation and war will no longer exist anywhere.

This is not John Lennon. This is globalisation.

I think Putin's a good guy and only interested in humanitarian advancement.

I vote for the US sitting on the sidelines and selling ammo to both sides. Good work if you can get it

Opps, I forgot that the EU will only fight to the last American. Back to the USA staying neutral and making a buck

It could had been a good read if it wasn't for this sentence which removes any credibility from the article:

Originally Posted by sabang

The only country on earth that needs war is Washington

Originally Posted by sabang

Will Putin Realize That Russia Holds The Cards? — Paul Craig Roberts

More evidence, about which I hope to write at length, is piling up that Europe has acquiesced to Washington’s drive to war with Russia, a war that is likely to be the final war for humanity. By Russia’s low key and unthreatening response to Washington’s aggression, thereby giving the West the mistaken signal that Russia is weak and fearful, the Russian government has encouraged Washington’s drive to war.
It appears that the Russians’ greatest weakness is that capitalism has raised enough Russians to a comfortable living standard that the war that Washington is bringing to them is scary, and they want to avoid it in order to continue living like decadent Western Europeans.

... But, Putin says, Russia must hold back: “Obviously we need to do it cautiously in order to support domestic manufacturers, but not hurt consumers.”
In other words, Putin wants to impose sanctions that are not really sanctions, but something that looks like tit for tat.
The amazing thing about Russia finding herself on the defensive about sanctions is that Russia, not Washington or the impotent EU, holds all the cards. Putin can bring down the economies of Europe and throw all of Europe into political and economic chaos simply by turning off the energy supply.
Putin would not have to turn off the energy supply for very long before Europe tells Washington good-bye and comes to terms with Russia. The longer Putin waits, the longer Europe has to prepare against Russia’s best weapon that can be used to peacefully resolve the conflict that Washington has orchestrated.
Washington’s aggressive moves against Russia will not stop until Putin realizes that he, not Washington, holds the cards, and plays them.
Will Putin Realize That Russia Holds The Cards? -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

We'll have to wait till nearer winter time in Europe to find out if that will happen.

Originally Posted by zygote1

the sham referendum on independence

Over 90% of historically Russian Crimea voted for seceding from Ukraine- and Crimeas was previously an autonomous republic within the Ukrainian federation. Nothing sham about it whatsoever, except that Washington and the post-coup Ukrainian government did not like the outcome. Most of the rest of us saw it as both predictable, and logical. The status of eastern Ukraine is more opaque- because it is not an autonomous republic. But it is mainly ethnically Russian, mainly Russian speaking, and resents the Coup- which overthrew an elected government.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

My Dad can beat up your Dad. Putin, what a fuckin douchebag.

The only people who will lose out are the Russian people. Maybe there will be another Russian Revolution.

Russian GDP went from nothing to 2 trillion dollars in less then 25 years. Putin is not going anywhere.

Originally Posted by Looper

War is not coming.

No G20 nation will ever go to war with another G20 nation for any reason. It is no longer affordable due to the globalised distributed nature of commerce, manufacturing and service provision.

War is a relic of international relations between developed countries.

War is now reserved for poor countries but eventually those countries will be pulled into the sphere of trade and wealth generation and war will no longer exist anywhere.

This is not John Lennon. This is globalisation.

The war started when Washington backed and funded a coup in Ukraine. People are dying. This is war already.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by zygote1

the sham referendum on independence

Over 90% of historically Russian Crimea voted for seceding from Ukraine- and Crimeas was previously an autonomous republic within the Ukrainian federation. Nothing sham about it whatsoever, except that Washington and the post-coup Ukrainian government did not like the outcome. Most of the rest of us saw it as both predictable, and logical. The status of eastern Ukraine is more opaque- because it is not an autonomous republic. But it is mainly ethnically Russian, mainly Russian speaking, and resents the Coup- which overthrew an elected government.

Autonomous status is not a license to unilaterally secede. It only implies a degree of independent self-government within a nation state. The process was illegitimate even without Russia massing tanks on the border to cow Ukraine into inaction when faced with losing its territory.

Originally Posted by The Maestro

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

My Dad can beat up your Dad. Putin, what a fuckin douchebag.

The only people who will lose out are the Russian people. Maybe there will be another Russian Revolution.

Russian GDP went from nothing to 2 trillion dollars in less then 25 years. Putin is not going anywhere.

Read this and judge for yourself.

A new Russian revolution: The cracks are starting to appear in Putin’s Kremlin power bloc - The Times of India

Originally Posted by sabang

Over 90% of historically Russian Crimea voted for seceding from Ukraine

Complete bullshit. Crimea was evenly divided on whether to secede from Ukraine it was only when little green men started showing up sowing fear into the populace that that changed. Most people did not turn out to vote afraid of being beaten by drunk Cossacks if they voted the wrong way.

Yesterday it was announced that 18 senior ministers and office holders were purged by Putin.
maybe there is some resistance in the ranks..

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by sabang

Over 90% of historically Russian Crimea voted for seceding from Ukraine

Complete bullshit. Crimea was evenly divided on whether to secede from Ukraine it was only when little green men started showing up sowing fear into the populace that that changed. Most people did not turn out to vote afraid of being beaten by drunk Cossacks if they voted the wrong way.

Is that what Fox news told you??

Originally Posted by bsnub

Complete bullshit. Crimea was evenly divided on whether to secede from Ukraine it was only when little green men started showing up sowing fear into the populace that that changed.

Snigger- so what propaganda have you been swallowing? Got any, like, sources or links? There was no intimidation at all, and indeed it was widely forecast before the election that the vote for seceding would exceed 90%. Neither were there tanks massed at the border- in fact , there were already Russian troops, ships etc in Crimea- because the Crimean peninsula is a major Russian military installation, naval bases, army & airforce. The people of Crimea, who are Russian, wanted out of Ukraine (which they had only been part of since the 50's & 60's thanks to a USSR bureaucratic decision) after the coup, and the Crimean Parliament called a Referendum. They had been a part of Russia for centuries before that.

Presumably you believe the US military was viciously attacked by the Nth Vietnamese in the Gulf of Tonkin, Saddam had nuclear weapons, and was shopping for nuclear parts in Africa too?

Originally Posted by Necron99

Yesterday it was announced that 18 senior ministers and office holders were purged by Putin.

Any link?

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Necron99

Yesterday it was announced that 18 senior ministers and office holders were purged by Putin.

Any link?

Vladimir Putin 'sacks 18 top-ranking Russian officials' - Europe - World - The Independent

Who is hit hardest by Russia's trade ban?

Germany and Poland will lose the most trade with Russia, and neighboring Finland and Baltic states Lithuania and Latvia will lose a bigger proportion of their GDP. Norway will see fish sales to Russia disappear, and US damages would be very limited.
Russia has banned imports of fruit, vegetables, meat, fish and dairy products from the 28 countries of the EU, the US, Canada, Norway, and Australia for one year.
EU trade is heavily dependent on Russian food imports. Last year Russia bought $16 billion worth of food from the bloc, or about 10 percent of total exports, according to Eurostat.
In terms of losses, Germany, Poland and the Netherlands- the top three EU food suppliers to Russia in 2013 - will be hit hardest. Food for Russia makes up around 3.3 percent of total German exports.
French Agriculture Minister Stephane Le Foll said his government is already working together with Germany and Poland to reach a coordinated policy on the new Russian sanction regime.
Last year, Ireland exported €4.5 million worth of cheese to Russia, and not being able to do so this year is a big worry, Simon Coveney, the country’s agriculture minister, said.
Farmers across Europe could face big losses if they aren’t able to find alternative markets for their goods, especially fruit and vegetables.
Some are already demanding their governments provide compensation for lost revenue.
“If there isn’t a sufficient market, prices will go down, and we don’t know if we can cover the costs of production, because it is so expensive,” Jose Emilio Bofi, an orange farmer in Spain, told RT.

Key food suppliers to Russia

Country Exports to Russia, 2013
(in billion $) Belarus 2.74 Brazil 2.41 Ukraine 1.99 Germany 1.83 Turkey 1.68 China 1.61 Poland 1.55 USA 1.54
Netherlands 1.42 France 1.42 Italy 1.34 Spain 1.26 Other EU countries 4.88
Source: Data from the International Trade Centre analysed by Reuters

The largest opposition party in Greece is urging its government drop sanctions against Russia, even if the move isn’t supported by other EU states.
In 2013, Denmark supplied Russia with $628 million worth of products which are now banned.
European Agriculture commissioners will set up a task force to address Russia’s sanctions, on Monday.

Border States

Lithuania and Finland, which both share a border with Russia, could be hit hard by the new restrictions.
Now a member of the EU and NATO, Lithuania is still closely linked economically with Russia. Banned exports account for 2.5 percent of the country’s GDP, according to an estimate by Capital Economics.
Vegetable and foodstuffs are among Lithuania’s top five exports.
Finland’s dairy industry stands to lose up to $535 million (€400 million) in the trade spat. The country depends on Russia for 14 percent of its trade.
Both Finland and Lithuania have already contacted Brussels with complaints.
Scandinavian neighbor Norway, a large exporter of fish and seafood to Russia, will lose out to domestic fish companies, which have seen their share prices soar after the introduction of the trade restrictions.
America not bothered

For the US the effect will be very limited, as agricultural exports to Russia are about one tenth of one percent of total US gross domestic product of about $144 billion, according to the US Department of Agriculture.
US food exports to Russia in 2013 amounted to less than 1 percent of the country’s total agricultural exports, the US Department of Agriculture said to RIA Novosti. Conversely, Russian exports to the US and European markets are 13 percent of its GDP. In 2013, the US exported $1.3 billion of food goods to Russia, about a quarter of which were poultry products.
So far the US, EU, Canada, Australia, and Norway haven’t responded to Russia’s retaliatory measures.
What's in the ban for Russia?

The immediate trade restrictions will create a $9.5 billion gap in Russia’s food market that needs to be filled. Russia is in talks with Latin American countries on how to fill this hole with meat from Brazil and cheese from New Zealand.
Russia is also holding talks with Custom Union members Kazakhstan and Belarus, which it will ask to prevent any transit of Western goods into Russia.
Promising to develop its own industries and protect the economy, Russia will support the new measures at home, and has already allotted $50 billion to farmers.
However, some analysts fear it won’t be enough, and that food prices will rise, further worsening Russia’s inflation problem. Higher inflation will not only hurt those buying groceries, but also Russia’s export sectors- oil, gas, metals, and mining.
Restaurants will have to adapt, as they source nearly 50 percent of their produce from abroad, according to OAO Rosinter Restaurants Holding, which operates 370 restaurants in Moscow, Bloomberg News reported.

http://rt.com/business/178888-russia...ban-who-hurts/


Also-
Poland asks US to buy apples banned by Russia

http://rt.com/business/179332-poland-us-import-apples/

China to start direct sales of fruit and vegetables to Russia

http://rt.com/business/179376-russia...uit-vegetable/

According to a statement by the POTUS, Russia doesn't make anything.