Rejecting Putin: RT reporter resigns on air

**pompeysbroke** · 08-03-2014, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Cornwall will be getting ideas.

IoW wants away from mainland Ampshoire.

'Be oi Ampshoire, be oi boggery, oi be Oil o' Woi

**Takeovers** · 08-03-2014, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by billy the kid

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Almost certain they won't in a free and fair referendum.

it will be well monitored by the west.

no doubt some will press for the corruption ticket.

No it won't. They have advanced the polling date to march 16 and they don't let anyone in. Why do you think that is?

**harrybarracuda** · 08-03-2014, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by billy the kid

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Almost certain they won't in a free and fair referendum.

it will be well monitored by the west.

no doubt some will press for the corruption ticket.

Haha wicked sense of humour mate!

**Butterfly** · 09-03-2014, 03:18 AM

Ukraine is delusional if they think they can fight Putin on this,

who is going to rescue them ? the EU ? NATO ?

**buriramboy** · 09-03-2014, 05:27 AM

America really haven't thought this sanctions shit through if they go through with it, all Russia has to do is refuse to accept the $ for its oil and change to the euro or something else and that will escalate the $ demise as the worlds reserve currency.

**Neverna** · 09-03-2014, 05:35 AM

The Germans won't agree to sanctions on Russia. I don't think the UK will either.

**billy the kid** · 09-03-2014, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Why do you think that is?

at the moment they seem to be keeping them away from military establishments.

surely the Ukrainians will demand 'observers' to check that all is above board when the referendum takes place. America also.

a lot of Russians have been using Crimea as a favorite holiday destination and is very popular.
no need for a Russian to have a passport when they go there.
you can even smoke a spliff without fear of being arrested.

Putin being an ex KGB officer probably wouldn't mind seeing some blood spilt over this piece of land.
But if the west really wanted to change the thinking of Putin they may do something about all the riches the rich Russian have stashed away in western bank accounts.
They are Putin's buddies after all.
Hurt them where it hurts.

The majority of Ukrainians see themselves going with Europe than siding with Russia.

If the shit hits the fan then Ukrainians will need a passport to visit Crimea for the first time.

who knows how all this will play out.

Using the military or the west confiscating Russian dosh.

**robuzo** · 09-03-2014, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by buriramboy

America really haven't thought this sanctions shit through if they go through with it, all Russia has to do is refuse to accept the $ for its oil and change to the euro or something else and that will escalate the $ demise as the worlds reserve currency.

Sergei Markov (the Kremlin's spokesman in Crimea) tells Foreign Policy magazine that Russian authorities had evidence that the U.S. government had conducted a "military coup" in Ukraine. "The leader of that state coup, John Kerry, arrived in Kiev today to guarantee financial aid for America's new colony and its junta. . ." There is certainly evidence of this in the Nuland conversation, and the Russians probably have other evidence acquired through their intelligence services. That the official Russian line is that the US (with NATO, especially Poland) pulled off the coup- that the Russians are actually convinced of this- is a very bad sign for western-Russian relations.

Another thing that is being badly downplayed in the media is that the muscle on the streets in Kiev and elsewhere, especially Western Ukraine, is composed of right-wing militias from groups like Svoboda, Right Sector, and White Hammer (all worshipers of Nazi ally Stepan Bandera) that Russia describes correctly as "fascists." As long as these guys are in the streets looking for a fight there is a real chance that things could go pear-shaped- George Bush, Sr. warned about "suicidal nationalism" in Ukraine after the breakup, and it remains a serious threat.

**Albert Shagnastier** · 09-03-2014, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

muscle on the streets in Kiev and elsewhere, especially Western Ukraine, is composed of right-wing militias from groups like Svoboda, Right Sector, and White Hammer (all worshipers of Nazi ally Stepan Bandera) that Russia describes correctly as "fascists."

Originally Posted by robuzo

U.S. government had conducted a "military coup" in Ukraine.

SOP

Originally Posted by robuzo

George Bush, Sr. warned about "suicidal nationalism" in Ukraine after the breakup

He is also a murdering fuckwit so take what the evil medle-some cvnt says with a pinch of salt.

**robuzo** · 09-03-2014, 08:43 PM

Henry Kissinger recently pointed out that "For the West, the demonization of Vladimir Putin is not a policy; it is an alibi for the absence of one," demonstrating that even "murdering fuckwits" can be correct once in a while (Bush I may have conducted some murderous policies, but he's no "fuckwit"- you're probably confusing him with the son).

**Albert Shagnastier** · 09-03-2014, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

Henry Kissinger recently pointed out that "For the West, the demonization of Vladimir Putin is not a policy; it is an alibi for the absence of one,"

Adolf Hitler once said..
Pol Pot once said..
Charles Manson once said..

**Butterfly** · 10-03-2014, 12:25 AM

quite like that quote,

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time."
-- E.B. White, American writer

**DrB0b** · 10-03-2014, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Crimea is sovereign Ukraine territory.

Crimea is an Autonomous Republic within Ukraine and has its own parliament its own constitution. It's affiliated with Ukraine but not fully sovereign territory, more of a pimple on Ukraine's ass.

Nice attempt at fudging, but wrong. Crimea's parliament and consitution are subject to Ukrainian law.

Crimea is sovereign Ukrainian territory. If you are struggling to understand that basic concept, then look at the Budapest memorandum.

In it Russia accepted that Crimea is part of Ukraine, and they signed the fucking thing.

If it was good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for you?

It is unequivocal:

Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.

it's not unequivocal. It's extremely equivocal. So much so that when you come out with something like this it's impossible to believe you understood it. Besides, why should I respect the Nazis who've taken over Ukraine? All Nazis should be killed on sight.

**sabang** · 10-03-2014, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Crimea's parliament and consitution are subject to Ukrainian law.

Not any more- assuming it is approved at Referendum (consider it done), they have seceded. Much like if the Scottish National Party had something like 75% support, Scotland would secede too.

It was abundantly clear that this would happen after the western sponsored Ukrainian Coup, so I don't see the point of western blustering now. Plain fact is, Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine anyway. Like Ossetia (ex-Georgia), Crimea is now part of Russia. (of course 'we don't recognise it'- so what?) Unlike Ukraine, Crimea has a democratically elected government that enjoys popular support. The question now is really only what degree of autonomy Crimea will enjoy within the Russia federation. And whether any more of the Russian speaking eastern provinces of Ukraine will wish to secede too- and perhaps it is this concern that explains impotent western blustering over the matter, because they surely know they are whistlin' dixie with Crimea. Or perhaps it is just a foil- to keep our docile citizens eyes off the fact that we have helped usher a far right wing coalition into power in the Ukraine, and frankly that is the real worry now- not Crimea.

Based on this history, I don't know what Kruschev was thinking frankly when he signed over Crimea to Ukraine- it is pretty clear it was done over the heads of the people-

While Crimea is officially an autonomous region formally within Ukraine, it has its own Parliament and, up until 1995, its own President. The majority of Crimeans are Russian-speakers, and they have voted repeatedly for close relations with Russia.

Crimea’s post-Soviet history is a rocky one. Unilaterally handed over to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 – in a move of dubious legality – Crimea was caught between Russia and Ukraine as the old USSR collapsed. In 1991, the Movement for a Republic of Crimea gathered 180,000 signatures on a petition calling for a popular referendum on Crimean independence, an informal "opinion poll" was held in which the modified demand for close relations with Russia passed overwhelmingly, and the elected Parliament adopted a resolution declaring Crimean sovereignty.

Kiev responded to this with the threat of force, and at that point the bargaining began. The Crimeans, for their part, used the separatist threat to gain some leverage in the negotiations with Kiev: what they wanted – and got – was control over local resources, which were about to be "privatized" by the crooks in Kiev and looted by various Western Ukrainian oligarchs. The local oligarchs took exception to this, and in the end they won out: Kiev basically caved and the resulting compromise kept Crimea within Ukraine, albeit with full economic and political autonomy.

The compromise, however, didn’t last long: in 1993, as the Ukrainian economy collapsed, the Ukrainian currency approached worthlessness, and the social fabric of what was essentially an administrative unit of the old Soviet Union rather than an actual nation came apart at the seams, a national movement for Crimean independence gained traction. The presidential and parliamentary elections of 1994 gave Yuri Meshkov, a Russian nationalist, a big majority and a subsequent referendum on closer ties with Russian won nearly 80 percent of the vote. Kiev went ballistic, and Meshkov appealed to the Russians for protection, but President Yeltsin was more interested in appeasing the West and the Crimeans were ultimately left to fend for themselves. The Crimean presidency was abolished by unilateral decree of the Ukrainian Rada, and troops from Western Ukraine were sent in.

That same year, Yeltsin signed a tripartite agreement with Ukraine and the US, in which the Ukrainians agreed to give up their nuclear weapons – left over from the old Soviet days – with the secret protocols (never made public to this day) widely believed to guarantee Western support for Ukraine in the event of a threat to its arbitrarily-defined borders.

Yet the Crimean desire to be free of the Ukrainian yoke did not abate: in 2008, the Crimean Parliament voted to recognize Abhkazia and Ossetia, two former Soviet autonomous regions that had been arbitrarily handed over to Georgia and subsequently voted to rejoin Russia. That same year, one million Crimeans signed a petition demanding the Russian fleet be allowed to retain its presence in Sevastopol.

In spite of threats of force, and a series of heavy-handed administrative measures, Crimean separatism has continuously bubbled just beneath the surface, and polls show the majority of Russian-speakers and Ukrainian-speakers favor separation. This desire to get away has no doubt been amplified a thousand-fold as a coalition of corrupt oligarchs and outright fascists with US support overthrew Viktor Yanukovich, the elected President, and the country teeters on the edge of bankruptcy and chaos.

Crimea for the Crimeans by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com

We can cry into our moral cornflakes all we want, it will change nothing- Crimea is part of Russia again. Vladimir Putin did the right thing frankly, on both a peace keeping, right of self determination, and national security basis.

**robuzo** · 10-03-2014, 05:32 AM

^"I don't know what Kruschev was thinking frankly"- He was thinking it was a purely symbolic gesture. That plus having a Ukrainian premier probably made them very happy about being part of the USSR

.

There also used to be quite a few more Poles in the parts of Western Ukraine that were Polish and are now strongholds of the Ukrainian nationalists/fascists who managed the coup. . .and who also are a major reason there aren't so many Poles in that area as well (read about their man Stepan and his purges).

There is opposition that is not Svoboda-Right Sector-affiliated, but again, that side of the opposition doesn't have the muscle. The right-wing, with its western backers, launched the coup when it appeared a reasonable compromise was at hand, because that it the last thing they want. Fascists don't compromise.

**Butterfly** · 10-03-2014, 05:33 PM

the US reactions and the leaked taped of the US ambassador in Ukraine is clearly indicating ultimate motives in the Ukraine conflict,

The EU had pre-emptied that "coup" with an agreement, and it seems that the Americans, by fucking over their EU counterparts once again, decided to go alone on this and went for their "coup" idea, as clearly described in the leaked tape.

and here we are, and it's going to end in tears

if the EU doesn't start to stand off against the Americans by telling them it's European and Russia business, not fucking America, then it's going to get worse.

What is the end game for Ukraine ? no exit strategy, no funding, not even legitimacy, and not even a noble "coup" when you have Neo Nazi running the show.

As DrB said it, the only way to deal with Nazi is with a bullet in the head, no discussion is necessary.

**billy the kid** · 10-03-2014, 06:09 PM

fucked if i know what's happening anymore.
The West supported the Muslim Brotherhood and want them reinstated in Egypt
They support the rebels in Syria yet they slaughtered many Americans and Brits.
They support an illegal movement now in the Ukraine
They have created a total mess in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, etc..
They support keeping Palestinians in chains or so it seems.
And who do they support in S. America,, Venezuela ?
People screaming Fascist at western reporters now.

So will Crimea be the spark to ignite a war.

Ukraine says it belongs to her and the Russians in Ukraine want it governed by Moscow.
Looks like the vote will favour Putins stance.
So how will this all end ?

**pickel** · 10-03-2014, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by billy the kid

So how will this all end ?

With Crimea belonging to Russia and John Kerry with lots of egg on his face.

**Albert Shagnastier** · 10-03-2014, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by billy the kid

fucked if i know what's happening anymore. The West supported the Muslim Brotherhood and want them reinstated in Egypt They support the rebels in Syria yet they slaughtered many Americans and Brits. They support an illegal movement now in the Ukraine They have created a total mess in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, etc.. They support keeping Palestinians in chains or so it seems.

Yup-brazen and in your face nowadays.

Originally Posted by billy the kid

And who do they support in S. America,, Venezuela ?

Disgusting how the US is making Venezuelan people suffer as they are at the moment for supporting Chavez in the past.

Originally Posted by billy the kid

People screaming Fascist at western reporters now.

Not wrong are they.

Originally Posted by billy the kid

how will this all end ?

Originally Posted by pickel

With Crimea belonging to Russia and John Kerry with lots of egg on his face.

What he said

**billy the kid** · 10-03-2014, 07:03 PM

yes. enough to make a big omelette.
he really isn't a smart cookie.

**Butterfly** · 10-03-2014, 07:21 PM

it's difficult to understand who is really controlling the US foreign policy. Obama seems to have no clue about the matter, like his predecessor, and Clinton and Kerry, both obsessed with their public image, seem to be the messenger of peace from another dimension

basically, it's all fucked up and the EU needs to step in and show some balls

**pompeysbroke** · 10-03-2014, 07:25 PM

So, it will end up with Kerry, choking and face splattered, on an extra large omelette on a thick cookie base...all's well that ends well...

**Albert Shagnastier** · 10-03-2014, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

it's difficult to understand who is really controlling the US foreign policy. Obama seems to have no clue about the matter, like his predecessor, and Clinton and Kerry, both obsessed with their public image, seem to be the messenger of peace from another dimension

Their boss controls the foreign policy, and they are operating on a need to know basis (i.e need to know when to push the red button and that's about it).

**harrybarracuda** · 10-03-2014, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Crimea is sovereign Ukraine territory.

Crimea is an Autonomous Republic within Ukraine and has its own parliament its own constitution. It's affiliated with Ukraine but not fully sovereign territory, more of a pimple on Ukraine's ass.

Nice attempt at fudging, but wrong. Crimea's parliament and consitution are subject to Ukrainian law.

Crimea is sovereign Ukrainian territory. If you are struggling to understand that basic concept, then look at the Budapest memorandum.

In it Russia accepted that Crimea is part of Ukraine, and they signed the fucking thing.

If it was good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for you?

It is unequivocal:

Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.

it's not unequivocal. It's extremely equivocal. So much so that when you come out with something like this it's impossible to believe you understood it. Besides, why should I respect the Nazis who've taken over Ukraine? All Nazis should be killed on sight.

It is quite unequivocal in what it defines as sovereign Ukrainian territory. It is not, however, unequivocal in stating what signing members are permitted or obligated to do if any party chooses to breach the agreement.

Try and keep up.

**robuzo** · 10-03-2014, 09:53 PM

It's probably just as well that Ukraine didn't have a stockpile of nukes when Nazis ousted the government in a coup. The February 21 agreement was also signed by all parties directly as well as indirectly involved (EU and Russia), and the far right still launched a coup with US fingerprints all over it.

Try not to get hung up on an agreement that was intended to consolidate the possession of nuclear weapons and, insofar as the territorial aspects, not only doesn't provide for enforcement but is practically unenforceable. Just be glad the '94 agreement did what it was supposed to do. If there is to be further progress in limiting and getting rid of nuclear weapons more respect will have to paid to Russia's concerns.

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