Trip to the Holy Land - photothread.

[Bettyboo]

Finally, around 7pm, headed to the airport (quick and easy - 1 stop, a couple of Great British Pounds.

Had a sandwich and a beer at the airport.

Attachment 105881


Went to my gate:

Attachment 105882


It was a 10 hour flight, so I paid $100 extra for an isle emergency exit seat with loads of space:

Attachment 105883


The plane was packed (Koreans, Russians and Israelis everywhere... ), si I was pleased to have got the better seat.

Attachment 105884


Took care to watch the emergency briefing from the Korean Air staff:

Attachment 105885


Attachment 105886


At Incheon, got a bus/coach right at the terminal, took 3 hours, but I slept most of the way. &, was pleased to see the dog when I got home - he was happy to try on his new winter raincoat that I'd bought for him in England (sadly, I was so busy on this trip that I didn't have time to buy the wife anything...).

Attachment 105887


Lastly, to celebrate the trip, I opened a decent bottle of wine, drank it all and had a long sleep.

Attachment 105888


All parts of the trip were successful apart from: 1) the trauma of visiting Harlow shopping centre; 2) Luton airport.

If you haven't been to the Holy Land then you should go - we just beat Stoke and are now top of the league...

[Looper]

Champion stuff Betty!

Inspiring me to make the pilgrimmage one day....

Via Dolorosa

Jesus getting sentenced, carrying the cross and being crucified

I love when the good Samaritan offers to help the criminal with his cross in the Via Dolorosa in The Life of Brian and the crim does a runner and the Samaritan fails to explain (ever so politely) to the Romans that he is not in fact a criminal!

[helge]

If you haven't been to the Holy Land then you should go

Are israelies a friendly and easy to get along with lot, on home base ?

Never been there, but have met a few traveling.

Quite a few jerks among them


Very nice thread

[Bettyboo]

^ & ^^ I'm glad you enjoyed the thread.

Champion stuff Betty!

Inspiring me to make the pilgrimmage one day....

I love when the good Samaritan offers to help the criminal with his cross in the Via Dolorosa in The Life of Brian and the crim does a runner and the Samaritan fails to explain (ever so politely) to the Romans that he is not in fact a criminal!

Indeed. It's hard not to make some wise cracks, but there are a lot of serious people around. It's an interesting place, and doesn't seem intimidating or violent (although at times it clearly is); most folks get along well most of the time. As for the Romans...

Are israelies a friendly and easy to get along with lot, on home base ?

Never been there, but have met a few traveling.

Quite a few jerks among them

Very nice thread

TBH, I've never liked the people when I've met them around the world. Also, I find Zionists especially annoying. But,

1) The Israelis I met or spoke with were all very nice and helpful - this surprised me a lot. Nice place and nice people/

2) I was surprised that both tour leaders, despite being moderate Jews, framed the tours as little Zionist teaching lessons... More than a few times it was difficult to keep my mouth closed (but for the sake of others on the tour I decided to), for example: in Jaffa generally, the fact that the Israelis were calling it a Tel Aviv suburb seemed like a stealth encroachment/steal. &, while talking about the Jaffa history of 1947/48 the guide explained how the Palestinians were attacking the British police and killing them... there was no mention of the Zionist terrorist bombings on British police stations and generally that their great leader and first PM ran a stated terrorist organization... But, I was there to enjoy my time, and just ignored these couple of minor incidents.

Also, in Korea, we have lots of Christian nutters, usually of the insane American variety, that are in various cults and generally extremely irritating. On the plane back, the woman on the seat next to me was one such individual who spent the first 20 minutes yacking on about what parts of the bible I should read and how it would make me a better person. I was polite, but told her that I wasn't interested. She just yacked on, so I put my headphones on, turned the music up and didn't take it off for 9 and half hours until landing time... (Funnily, even then, she spent the last 10 minutes of landing trying to show me her favourite bits of the bible she'd be reading the entire trip back, so I had to explain to her that I was British and generally we're not interested in such stuff, try her yacking with Americans instead (this might be unfair on Americans, but there are fuk loads of American missionaries all over Korea of various types that bother you when you try to get your shopping done). I tried telling her I'd read the Torah not the bible (a lie), but she still yacked on; apparently Genesis is a wonderful read that will make me understand the world better.

But... I wasn't bothered or annoyed because it was a trip to Israel which is inspirational to many of these folks, many seem lonely in their own lives outside of their religious groups (in Korea I mean), and for many it is a pilgrimage (especially in Jerusalem), so I was on my best behaviour and accepting that people are different and that's fine.

...

If I were gonna be a tad political then I see Israel's problems as getting worse because: 1) the orthodox Jews are now massively outbreeding all the other Jews in Israel thus becoming more politically powerful; the Tel Aviv lot, who are almost all moderate Jews seem to dislike the fact they (the orthodox Jews dressed in black and white with curls in their hair, etc) don't go into the army, don't pay many taxes, as a group the orthodox Jews are massively less educated, and there's serious discussions of having two separate Jewish areas; 2) the moderate Tel Aviv Jews, or at least the few that breached the subject with me, were Zionists (which isn't moderate imho). I don't live there full time, and it's obviously multi-faceted, so I just smiled and accepted what they said. A couple of times, I mentioned that generally in the UK Jewish community a more inclusive single state solution is preferred with everyone having equal rights and opportunities, and while they didn't flat out disagree, they looked at me as if I was stupid... I think it's another situation where people are so close to a problem they become irrational. But, what do I know... Their country, let them get on with it...

As a tourist, you don't get bothered by any of this stuff, and you can take care to go on tours which are inline with your personal beliefs (the Abraham Hostels and their tours were very good, but certainly come with a certain construal which is fair enough, they don't pretend otherwise, and it was my choice to use them; it was interesting and insightful). The people were very nice, knowledgeable and friendly (and shared most of the truth most of the time... ).

[helge]

TBH, I've never liked the people when I've met them around the world.

OK

I'm not alone then.

[katie23]

@betty - thanks for the pics & words, very insightful. Btw the pics on post #201 don't show for me.

As a Catholic (and a moderate one, I think), Israel holds a certain fascination since it's the Holy Land. Years ago, in my old church (it was in a more affluent community), there would sometimes be invitations to join (Filipino) tour groups to visit Israel or Rome. I was in my 20s then and I considered the ppl joining those tours as oldies - the aunts/ uncles, grandmas, etc - basically our version of "ajumas".

But now, I'm a certified auntie and find those trips/ pilgrimages interesting now. I guess it's that stage in life. Lol.

I think if I do visit Israel, I'll DIY it like you did and just join day tours from there. The problem of joining a tour group/ agency from start to finish is that inevitably there'll be people who will rub you the wrong way but because you're in a group with them, you'll have to bear their company and be polite. (uggh!)

I also want to do the Camino de Santiago (maybe the French or Portuguese route) in future. Not for religious reasons but for contemplation/ life stuff. That's at the moment - my mind will probably change in the next few years. At the moment, I'd like to do it but must set it aside for a few years since there are other priorities, time and budget constraints.

I appreciate your political insights too. It's a very controversial region. Some months ago, I found out that my country was the only one in SE Asia which voted for Israel's statehood. The Muslim nations like Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei all voted against it, while the others like TH abstained. The UK abstained too (the US voted for it).

I think in Malaysia, if you have an Israel stamp on your passport, they won't admit you as a tourist. ( I don't know how true that is, just something that I've read). However, I know that it's true for some Middle East countries, so Israel counters that by giving you a stamp on a piece of paper which you can remove afterwards. Don't know how it works now that the process is automated as you've described. (I've also done the automated check-out from my trip to Taiwan earlier this year - it was seamless.)

Cheers!

[Looper]

Also, in Korea, we have lots of Christian nutters, usually of the insane American variety, that are in various cults and generally extremely irritating

The worst Christian proselytiser I have ever encountered was on the streets of Seoul in 2013.

He was an overweight, profusely sweating American dressed like a bible salesman, with buttoned up shirt and long trousers in the 38c humid July summer who accosted me, clutching his bible in his greasy paw, with some spiel which I thought I declined in a reasonably polite manner.

But obviously not politely enough for our Merkin evangelist, who, in a Jekyll and Hyde nano-second, proceeded to hurl a hysterical torrent of vitriol and spite at me as I retreated. I actually thought he was going to throw his bible at me at one point!

The lords work must be extra-burdensome in the height of the Korean saunu-like summer!

I also want to do the Camino de Santiago

Katie that would be a holy hiking-trip to remember... Sign me up!

The boot-blisters would be like the hiking-enthusiast's stigmata... I would not even put plasters on them!

[Top Cat]

Thanks for all your work BB. A good insight into a part of the world that seems to exist in one form of crisis or another. All brought on by good old religion of course.

[Bettyboo]

@betty - thanks for the pics & words, very insightful. Btw the pics on post #201 don't show for me.

As a Catholic (and a moderate one, I think), Israel holds a certain fascination since it's the Holy Land. Years ago, in my old church (it was in a more affluent community), there would sometimes be invitations to join (Filipino) tour groups to visit Israel or Rome. I was in my 20s then and I considered the ppl joining those tours as oldies - the aunts/ uncles, grandmas, etc - basically our version of "ajumas".

But now, I'm a certified auntie and find those trips/ pilgrimages interesting now. I guess it's that stage in life. Lol.

I think if I do visit Israel, I'll DIY it like you did and just join day tours from there. The problem of joining a tour group/ agency from start to finish is that inevitably there'll be people who will rub you the wrong way but because you're in a group with them, you'll have to bear their company and be polite. (uggh!)

I also want to do the Camino de Santiago (maybe the French or Portuguese route) in future. Not for religious reasons but for contemplation/ life stuff. That's at the moment - my mind will probably change in the next few years. At the moment, I'd like to do it but must set it aside for a few years since there are other priorities, time and budget constraints.

I appreciate your political insights too. It's a very controversial region. Some months ago, I found out that my country was the only one in SE Asia which voted for Israel's statehood. The Muslim nations like Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei all voted against it, while the others like TH abstained. The UK abstained too (the US voted for it).

I think in Malaysia, if you have an Israel stamp on your passport, they won't admit you as a tourist. ( I don't know how true that is, just something that I've read). However, I know that it's true for some Middle East countries, so Israel counters that by giving you a stamp on a piece of paper which you can remove afterwards. Don't know how it works now that the process is automated as you've described. (I've also done the automated check-out from my trip to Taiwan earlier this year - it was seamless.)

Cheers!

Thanks Katie.

I was very open minded, as I wanted to enjoy the trip; as such, I understood the political and religious issues were problematic, and just let they stay distant in my mind - only rarely did these issues even enter my mind. Israel is very nice, all the people I met of varying cultural backgrounds and political beliefs were very nice - being there, one could almost belief everything was pleasant and people got along.

I took lots of pictures of the important Roman (and other) orthodox church in Jerusalem, so I hope you found those interesting. The place has lots of influences, including Roman Catholic. It is also worth remembering that Jerusalem went through a large Macedonian/Hellenic influential period from the end of Alexander the Great's death until the end of the Seculid period in around 150BC when the Maccabean/Hasmonean periods began which were a foregrounding of Jewish(ness). As the Roman's got stronger in the region they had an increasing influence. then in around 40BC Jerusalem had Roman proxies controlling it. Then Islamic control, the Crusades, etc, until around the 12th century Murmuks (spell?) and then 15th century Ottoman control had massive influence. early 19th century onwards saw increasing Jewish returns until the situation we have today.

Actually, going back well before Kind David of the Israelites (880BC), the area was brutal with endless fighting between different groups that makes present day stuff look tame.

I enjoy the history of all, and respect all the different groups. I also enjoying seeing the historic structures. The Al-Aqsa mosque is beautiful (although to build it on the Temple Mount - the Jewish holy of holies is rather cheeky. Then again, that was 950 years ago, so there's a lot of heritage and multiple generations of people for whom that is their spiritual home... For my mind, if the Temple Mount could be extended, and a Jewish Temple added, away from the Al-Aqsa mosque that'd be a nice inclusive idea - of course, that won't happen.

I always find the Catholic churches and cathedrals fantastic; Montmartre being one of my favourites. Westminister Abbey is great too although this is now considered a protestant Abbey rather than the Catholic Cathedral it was for the majority of its time (thanks to Henry the 8ths ego...); very loosely, an analogy/parallel for the Temple Mount (or the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, obviously once an amazing Byzantine orthodox cathedral) - this is the way of cultures, they violently destroy others and appropriate their temples, holy sites and icons to their own devices, fundamentally for the sake of power, imho.

The Manila Cathedral we visited was a beautiful place, and it was great having you as a tour guide to help me understand it better...

You'd love Jerusalem, you should go. Apart from the history, it's just a beautiful place. One of the reasons why the lands we now call Israel have been fought over for thousands of years is their fertility and beauty. Israel produces 95% of its own food and 120%+ of it's water needs (all very rare in desert areas).

Your idea of the Camino de Santiago would be fantastic - you should do it! Looper would be a handy man-servant to remove any ticks and leeches - but, take care!

I arrived at the airport, so got a separate card, no stamp in the airport. I could have got a passport stamp if I'd asked, and probably should have, but I was xanax'd up from the trip, so just wanted to get to my accom. My view is that if countries won't allow you in because you visited somewhere else, then I don't want to spend my tourist $$$ there - fuk 'em.

Thanks for your comments throughout the thread.

[Bettyboo]

The worst Christian proselytiser I have ever encountered was on the streets of Seoul in 2013.

He was an overweight, profusely sweating American dressed like a bible salesman, with buttoned up shirt and long trousers in the 38c humid July summer who accosted me, clutching his bible in his greasy paw, with some spiel which I thought I declined in a reasonably polite manner.

But obviously not politely enough for our Merkin evangelist, who, in a Jekyll and Hyde nano-second, proceeded to hurl a hysterical torrent of vitriol and spite at me as I retreated. I actually thought he was going to throw his bible at me at one point!

The lords work must be extra-burdensome in the height of the Korean saunu-like summer!



Katie that would be a holy hiking-trip to remember... Sign me up!

The boot-blisters would be like the hiking-enthusiast's stigmata... I would not even put plasters on them!

Korea is a strange place with some of the worst religious cults in the world. You're right that the summers are brutal - hotter here than an Israeli summer... The winter here is horrible and long also. You get about 6 lovely weeks in Spring and the same in Autumn - the British climate (or, for that matter the Southern Australian climate) is so much nicer - I gotta get out of this palce. May sees my 10 years and a decent pension fund return, so that will be the end of my time here. I have not enjoyed it...

I've met so many nice Americans, normal and intelligent folk, but the protestant extremist varieties are my least favourite religious group (perhaps excluding a Muslim suicide bomber and/or ultra-conservative Zionist which I don't often come across...).

[Bettyboo]

Thanks for all your work BB. A good insight into a part of the world that seems to exist in one form of crisis or another. All brought on by good old religion of course.

You're welcome, TC.

Thanks for your kind words.

I only visited a couple of places, and there's so much more to see all over the country: Galilee, Masada (I find the Hasmonean period the most interesting), Acre, the Dead Sea (next to Masada, so that's a 2-in-1 trip... ), and many more.

[katie23]

@betty - I'd love to do an Israel trip or a Camino de Santiago, but at the moment there are budget considerations. I'm planning to build rental apartments by next year, so aside from the occasional hike (or local short trips), my finances will be geared towards the build.

As for the Camino de Santiago, I'd also like to do it and I'm pretty sure that I'm fit enough for the challenge. However aside from budget, there are time constraints too. To do the "proper" Camino (French route, 800+ km) takes 30 to 40 days, depending on your speed & if you rest/ wander in certain towns or cities. However, there's also a shorter way to do it. I've heard that you can do the final +/- 100 km of the French route and it takes ~16 days. You will still get the completion certificate. I dunno... maybe in 3 or 5 yrs, if my desire for it remains.

As for looper being a hike buddy on the Camino, hmm... No comment. If he does go to PH and wants to go on an exciting hike, I can bring him to mountains with lots of leeches, knife edges, rock scrambling and "kiss the wall" parts.

Cheers!