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  1. #2501
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    You guys are going in all hardcore with your vocab, you've lost me.

    "spot" is an unsightly blemish on your boat race and "bench" is something that I sit on in the park.

    Start talking proper so we can understand you, innit.

  2. #2502
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    Yep still here. Have been away on Norfolk Island, setting up another dodgy casino.
    of course, what else !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    How insulting, to insinuate I'm a brit.
    It's Aussie Bogan hustler, thanks
    you are all cousins, same same for us

  3. #2503
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey
    gold is dropping closer and closer to its 52 week low of 1186.....it touched 1188 last night
    That's cool, I'll still accept the terms of Butters' wager.
    yes, if we start the "Forward Agreement" now, the benchmark would be the previous close

    we can use this Friday close for the Benchmark and start the agreement as of Monday or we can wait Dec 31 to have a clean 6 months

  4. #2504
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    Spot (S0): USD Spot NY COMEX at the Close (No Bid/ask).
    Benchmark Price (X): 1,202.80 USD (COMEX) as of 12/20/2013
    Forward value at initiation: 0 USD
    Terms: 6 months calendar - June 20th 2014
    Multiplier: 1x
    Settlement: Cash Only, NPD
    Forward Buyer/Payer: 9999
    Forward Seller/Receiver: Butterfly
    Clearing: TD Donation or a Thailand charity to be agreed upon

    Forward Payment = S0 - X = Spot at Expiration - Strike Benchmark at origination

  5. #2505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Benchmark Price (X): 1,202.80 USD (COMEX) as of 12/20/2013
    Shouldn't this be $1,000 US ??

  6. #2506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    the benchmark would be the previous close
    you go from guffawing about a $500 bench

    then I agree to $1000

    Now you're trying to make it the spot price?

    The whole point was you taking a wager with a bench lower than the current price.

    A you trying to a hustle a hustler or something?

    Will you take this wager with a $1,000 bench price or not?

  7. #2507
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    I have been telling your for the last 3 pages that to be "fair" for all parties, the contract needs to be 0 at the beginning, not hustler type bet where one party is in debt to the other from the beginning. I understand it's your MO in your petty gangster world, but not in Finance.

    to be clear again, it's not a bet, it's a Forward agreement FFS, you still don't get it. The agreement is very clear, if you don't understand it, that's another issue.

    Ok with the terms with the close ? or do you want to wait further ? I am fine if you want to wait, regardless, the contract needs to start with a value of 0 so neither party owes anything to anyone at the start. That's how it works in the real world, deal with it.

  8. #2508
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    Excuse my stupidity Butters, but you originally said a $1K bench, meaning if gold is $1200 in 6 months I win $200, if it's $800 I lose $200.

    Now you want to go of the current spot price as a bench?


    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Benchmark Price (X): 1,202.80 USD (COMEX) as of 12/20/2013
    Isn't that defeating the point of the entire exercise of you taking a futures gold bet way under market price coz you;re so ultra confident it will fall?

    I'll honour the $1K bench at any time, but if you're trying to make the bench the current spot price, that's not what we were talking about. Again, I might just be confused with the way you are wording this to make it look like it's not a bet.

    Or are you yet again trying to worm out of your big calls?

    I'm fine to wait if another poster will come in and weigh in on exactly what you are trying to do here, as I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and thought we were just index betting $1 a point on the price of gold +/- $1,000 in 6 months time (yes, obviously a good prop for me and arbitrageable, but I wasn't the one who called gold to be @ $500 in 6 months).

  9. #2509
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    Excuse my stupidity Butters, but you originally said a $1K bench, meaning if gold is $1200 in 6 months I win $200, if it's $800 I lose $200.

    Now you want to go of the current spot price as a bench?
    explained to you already a dozen times, the agreement needs to have a fundamental value of 0 to be "fair" to all parties. If I put 1000 USD, the contract is already in debt to your advantage, it's not 0, and you have a 200 USD advantage from the beginning, which is by definition not 0, and therefore not "fair".

    The principle behind all those "bets" as you call them is that they are neutral in chance from the beginning. At 1000 USD, there is no neutrality in chance.

    We can wait for the close of the Spot to go down to 1000 USD before we can begin. But if you think Gold will rebound above 1400 very soon, why wait ?

  10. #2510
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    but I wasn't the one who called gold to be @ $500 in 6 months
    I said it could be 500, but markets are unpredictable, so this is why I am proposing a structured "bet" which is a standard forward agreement.

    I don't do barstool bets like you do with socal, that is making wild calls without defining precise terms to the agreement. It's that simple.

    If you want a barstool bet, I won't do it. If you want to bet about the direction of Gold with a Forward agreement, then I will do it.

  11. #2511
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    This was the original wager:

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    2 changs ? who do you think I am ? socal ?

    that's not a real bet, more like bargirls bets

    how about this, we do a Swap, we use 1000 USD as the benchmark, and in 6 months, one of the us pay the difference to the other ?

    if it's 500 USD, you pay me 500 USD, if it's 1200 USD, I pay 200 USD or whatever the amount above the 1000 benchmark. Likewise, whatever amount is below the 1000 USD benchmark, you pay me the difference ?

    I will go to the ISDA website and get the draft agreement for that SWAP, how about that ?
    This is what it has tranformed into:

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Spot (S0): USD Spot NY COMEX at the Close (No Bid/ask).
    Benchmark Price (X): 1,202.80 USD (COMEX) as of 12/20/2013
    Forward value at initiation: 0 USD
    Terms: 6 months calendar - June 20th 2014
    Multiplier: 1x
    Settlement: Cash Only, NPD
    Forward Buyer/Payer: 9999
    Forward Seller/Receiver: Butterfly
    Clearing: TD Donation or a Thailand charity to be agreed upon

    Forward Payment = S0 - X = Spot at Expiration - Strike Benchmark at origination
    The original has clarity. In addition on the date of the original wager the Comex price of gold at the NY close was $1, 282. AS the price of gold has already fallen $80 maybe the original $1,000 should also be reduced by $80 to $920.
    Last edited by OhOh; 22-12-2013 at 10:35 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  12. #2512
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    why do it amateurish when you can do it "pro" ?

    if 9999 wants to wait for the 1000 USD close before we begin the Forward, it's fine with me, but the principle of neutrality must stand, neither party should start with a disadvantage or a pending liability. Not sure what's so hard to understand, even a dummy like Socal could understand that.

  13. #2513
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh
    Spot (S0): USD Spot NY COMEX at the Close (No Bid/ask).
    Benchmark Price (X): 1,202.80 USD (COMEX) as of 12/20/2013
    Forward value at initiation: 0 USD
    Terms: 6 months calendar - June 20th 2014
    Multiplier: 1x
    Settlement: Cash Only, NPD
    Forward Buyer/Payer: 9999
    Forward Seller/Receiver: Butterfly
    Clearing: TD Donation or a Thailand charity to be agreed upon

    Forward Payment = S0 - X = Spot at Expiration - Strike Benchmark at origination
    9999 are you fine with those terms ? stop trying to hassle your way with the 1000 USD as an excuse not to do it. The terms I am offering here are fair and neutral. Either you take it now or you wait until the close reaches 1000.

  14. #2514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    9999 are you fine with those terms ? stop trying to hassle your way with the 1000 USD as an excuse not to do it. The terms I am offering here are fair and neutral. Either you take it now or you wait until the close reaches 1000.
    Jesus christ you are a prick to deal with. No wonder your corporate masters sent you to a 3rd world back water. I'm not trying to hustle anything. You made the offer, then twisted it and tried to hustle me, as 6 month gold futures are cheaper than the current spot price. Now who is trying to pull a petty hustle.

    No deal. The deal was a $1K bench, otherwise it's pointless. This was your way of wriggling out and trying to deflect, and now you're saying you won't honour the original bet coz it's not 'fair'

    Whatever dude.

  15. #2515
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    lame excuse, and typical MO from a hustler

    also we are talking Spot price here, not Gold Futures as benchmark. For the record Gold Futures are not in backwardation, but in contango, therefore Futures are higher than Spot. WTF are you going about being it cheaper than Spot ? and how is it even relevant when we are looking at Spot close for the benchmark ? jesus christ, you are completely over your head here when it involves more than 2 cans of Changs from 711.

    I am trying to structure the "bet" in a meaningful way, that is fair and neutral for both parties, and all you are trying to do is hassle your way with a barstool bet. You are small game, 999, nothing else. Stick to beers and online card games if you can't deal with real financial assets.

    small time poseur !!!

  16. #2516
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    Whatever Butters, I didn't expect anything less from you, nice one. Worm out and try turn it around on the other party. You have renigged on your original offer, twice now. And it's all here for everyone to see.

  17. #2517
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    you are a small time card player, I offered to structure properly a "bet", and you are refusing because there is less than 200 USD difference with a proper benchmark. Told you from the beginning that it would need to be the spot at the end. The 1000 was an indicated benchmark at the time of the post, not any kind of commitment, and only an hustler like yourself would jump on this opportunity to renegade the "bet" on this minor pretense. When you structure a deal, you need to adjust to whatever parameters are current, not something you would like to trick the other party into.

    I bet that when Gold Spot reaches 1000 USD, you will find another excuse not to enter into the agreement. Typical small player with no conviction, trying to flee the scene when he sees he is not going to have his way.

    A real player with strong conviction would have taken the "Forward Agreement" without question. But you didn't. In a way, the 1000 benchmark bait revealed you have no real conviction on the direction of Gold, you were just hoping that Gold would stay current at 1200 for the next 6 months. I was betting on volatility, you were betting on stability. You need to bet on volatility, not stability.

    Maybe socal will do it, let's see if he bites.

  18. #2518
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    twice now
    indeed, twice now you have found petty excuses not to enter a bet with me. Last time you didn't want to enter the bet because it was too high a stake (instead of beers) and suddenly you changed the terms because you realized that the app could work, so needed some additional unreasonable proof. Laughable.

    You are definitely the small card player playing at the small table making bets with pennies, beers and peanuts.

  19. #2519
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    Is this the part we get into a shit fight when you try take some sort of moral high ground?

    It's all here in this thread. You made these big calls about the price of gold, and were unwilling to back it up. Why the fuk would I do business with butters on TD if I get a better deal on the open market?

    Keep degenerating into your ad hominem crap butters, but everyone following this can see you have clearly welched out of this bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    You are definitely the small card player playing at the small table making bets with pennies, beers and peanuts.
    You're right, I never claimed to be a big time card player. I mass table small games and pick up the scraps off problem gamblers. No shame in that. It's you that said the wall street guys that raped the US populace are also card players

    So which is it?

    Get a grip man

  20. #2520
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    Why the fuk would I do business with butters on TD if I get a better deal on the open market?
    this is just getting bizarre, how would you get a better deal on the open market ? please explain,

    and didn't you engage me in the first place to enter into this agreement ? I made a call, and when I tried to structure it as it would be done properly on the "open market", you back out and find some excuses not to do it. If you can find a better deal on the open market, then post it here for all of us to see. Oh wait, they will use the same benchmark as I did, not 1000 USD, shit then !!!

    you are a petty player with no balls !!! can't even enter into a fair and neutral agreement that would benefit a non-profit organization.

  21. #2521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    can't even enter into a fair and neutral agreement that would benefit a non-profit organization.


    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh
    how about this, we do a Swap, we use 1000 USD as the benchmark, and in 6 months, one of the us pay the difference to the other ?

    if it's 500 USD, you pay me 500 USD, if it's 1200 USD, I pay 200 USD or whatever the amount above the 1000 benchmark. Likewise, whatever amount is below the 1000 USD benchmark, you pay me the difference ?
    These were your words. Then you back track and are only willing to back your huge call at market price. There is no advantage to me, so what's the point.

    Even trying to play the charity card man you are a piece of work.

  22. #2522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    why do it amateurish when you can do it "pro" ?
    I like simple bets that all can understand, rather than a "pro" version which leaves a bad taste.

    My bet is that gold bullion will be worth more in the future. That's why I buy when I can. My kids will receive some, my own private charity. Thats my bet.

    Simple even for me to understand.

  23. #2523
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    Butters is not even a pro. He's a wage slave poser. His corporate masters might be big players but this guy is just a cog in the wheel, gets on the turps, makes big calls and doesn't back them up.

    He's trying to say his proposed $1K bench was just an example, but it reads to me very much like a proposition, welches out and accuses me of trying to hustle for calling his bet. Kind of feel sorry for him, he's been holed up here so long against his will and is jaded and negative.

  24. #2524
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    oh that's rich, coming from a petty card player trying to hustle his way into a non-neutral "bet"

    if the odds for a bet was 3 to 1 when you contemplated to enter it, and then the odds actually became 2 to 1 when you decide to enter it, will you go to your bookmaker to change the "open" value of those bets ? of course not, and it's the same here

    I really don't understand why using the proper market benchmark of 1200 is scaring you more than the fixed arbitrary 1000 ? I understand 200 USD is a large sum of money for you, and about 1 month worth of beers and chips, but come on, where is your conviction that Gold will go back to where it used to be ?

    Like I said, you have no conviction, it's all about hustling your card buddies into dodgy bets. Pathetic.
    Last edited by Butterfly; 24-12-2013 at 02:11 PM.

  25. #2525
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9999
    These were your words.
    yes, I was demonstrating how a SWAP worked with an easy to understand benchmark since you had no clue how it worked. Instead of using those words for what they were, that is a simple example with a simple example benchmark, you use them to hustle your way into a bet I hadn't entered yet. Since I was clear from the beginning we would enter a swap (or a Forward, a Swap is a series of Forwards), a SWAP can only beginning if it has a value of 0 and is neutral for all parties. These are the foundation of a Forward and a SWAP at initiation. Anything else is some dodgy practice you would expect from a vice game player.

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