Flipping the bird or fighting?

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23-04-2009, 01:27 AM
Jet Gorgon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muadib

The PC, touchy-feely environment in the US has gotten out of hand...

Yeah, and the show of disrespect like HB experienced should not be tolerated either. I think the cops take your kid away if he/she says you spanked her/him at home.
Fek, I nearly exploded at the public library once when a woman was trying to reason with her toddler who was laying on the floor screaming. Lift up by one arm, smack on the bum and it's all over. Children are unable to reason until they're about eight or so. Even then, a light whack on the bum with the wooden spoon when they're bad keeps them in line.
23-04-2009, 01:57 AM
NickA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Fek, I nearly exploded at the public library once when a woman was trying to reason with her toddler who was laying on the floor screaming. Lift up by one arm, smack on the bum and it's all over. Children are unable to reason until they're about eight or so.

You're right. It's very unPC, but smacking your children when they are young is good. It means they won't need to be smacked when they are older. If you start too late it won't work. I haven't had to smack my kids for a long time and they are 4 and 6.

Even the Dalai Lama says it's OK:)
23-04-2009, 02:03 AM
Jet Gorgon

^ Oh, didn't explain that too well! The mom didn't do that -- it's what I would have done. It's not like beating them -- it's the instant shock factor.
Kinda like the Zen priest who walks around with a bamboo pole when you're meditating: thwack! if you're not trying (they always know).
23-04-2009, 02:13 AM
bobsaigon

The student's gesture was in no way polite and he didn't deserve to be reprimanded politely either at the time or during the next day. Egalitarianism has ruined the US public school system, and this was clearly demonstrated by the parents thinking they had the right to barge into the classroom.
23-04-2009, 02:42 AM
DrAndy

A student flipped you the bird, you got angry

The biggest fault would seem to be your ego, sorry to say

Why not just laugh at him, make light of it

the kid was prob just doing it almost like an instinctive gesture - see authority, rebel a bit.

You took it too personally, it was unimportant
23-04-2009, 02:59 AM
larvidchr

I wonder when we will have an opposite Columbine, a Teacher storming in to a school blasting away at the students.
23-04-2009, 04:10 AM
Muadib

^^ What kind of message does it send to the kid who thinks it's ok to flip off an authority figure??? What do you think would happen is the same child flipped off a police officer???

When I was a kid, if I got out of line or got into trouble, I was assured of an ass-whooping... Made me respect my elders and authority figures... Today's youth merely spit in your eye...

About 10 years ago I had this guy working for me... He and his entire family were wrapped up in a religious sect known as the 'Word'... Holier than thou says it pretty well... He had a wife and 2 small children under the age of 5 year old... One day one of his kids was mis-behaving and he did the unthinkable... He took the child by the arm and smacked her on the bottom 2 times... The child started crying and they went into their home... This was done in their front yard... Less than 1 hour later the police & child services show up at the front door... What followed was 1 year of counseling for the parents and they almost lost the kids... Some neighbor saw the action and took it upon themselves to call the police and report them... Just more PC bullshite...
23-04-2009, 04:28 AM
Jet Gorgon

So, what's the correct way to discipline kids these days?
23-04-2009, 05:53 AM
hillbilly

Keep in mind while this young boy flipped me the bird, about 75 other elementary students were watching...
23-04-2009, 06:03 AM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbilly

Keep in mind while this young boy flipped me the bird, about 75 other elementary students were watching...

I hear you HB, I'm certainly not judging, as I've done and reacted the same in similar positions before, BUT

Once I yell (at school, in the yard etc) I know I have lost, I try to remain calm, avoid confrontation etc.

75 kids watching, so what, say to them, "naughty boy, guess I'll have to deal with him tomorrow, and then do deal with him tomorrow"

chasing him onto the bus and scalding him may not have been the best method of dealing with it.

besides, kids usually love the audience for a confrontation, you gave him what he wanted, as a teacher, you should choose you battle grounds, the following day in the principals office could have been a ground more to your advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Children are unable to reason until they're about eight or so

bollocks. they can start reasoning at somethign like 6 months of age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickA

It's very unPC, but smacking your children when they are young is good.

I never actively decided not to hit my boy, but I honestly cannot think of an occasion when I did.

Many ways of disciplining a naughty child, I made good use of the naughty corner and sending him to his room to cry out the tantrum. And before anyone asks he is a super well behaved lad and well behaved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muadib

When I was a kid, if I got out of line or got into trouble, I was assured of an ass-whooping... Made me respect my elders and authority figures... Today's youth merely spit in your eye...

fear is not respect.

and c'mon - where kids really more respectful in the old days, go read huckleberry fin or oliver etc -I think kids are kids are kids.
23-04-2009, 06:50 AM
hillbilly

Perhaps KW hit one of the nails on the head. Many of my more experienced American teachers keep telling me to pick my battles. :(

Sad really, but in today's world it is reality.
23-04-2009, 06:57 AM
November Rain

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrAndy

it was unimportant

I don't see that. Disrespecting authority figures is not 'unimportant'. So, he flips a teacher the bird to show how 'cool & rebellious' he is. Is it completely inconceivable that this disrespect for authority could end with shooting at police officers or politicians? His parents aren't teaching him respect, the school isn't allowed to - so who is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

and c'mon - where kids really more respectful in the old days, go read huckleberry fin or oliver etc -I think kids are kids are kids.

Show me anywhere in any of those books that childish high jinks are interpreted as dragging a guy through his garden fence and killing him, because he dared to complain about the children who murdered him banging on it (my home town the summer before I left UK for good), kidnapping a child and torturing him before murdering him (Jaime Bulger - UK) maiming and blinding other children (my Mum's present home town)? Kids are not the same these days. Maybe the potential is the same, but the lack of parental concern and responsibility is making the outcome (in some cases) quite different.
23-04-2009, 07:09 AM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

as dragging a guy through his garden fence and killing him, because he dared to complain about the children who murdered him banging on it (my home town the summer before I left UK for good), kidnapping a child and torturing him before murdering him (Jaime Bulger - UK) maiming and blinding other children (my Mum's present home town)? Kids are not the same these days. Maybe the potential is the same, but the lack of parental concern and responsibility is making the outcome (in some cases) quite different.

Hey c'mon. that is not the usual, and I'm sure terrible crimes happened in the bad old days also.

I maintain that kids have not changed a great deal. Perhaps they are more aware/connected with the world around them via the internet, but kids are still more of less kids. (excepting the extreme examples mentioned above)
23-04-2009, 07:21 AM
November Rain

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

I maintain that kids have not changed a great deal.

I agree with you on that point. But parenting, societal/community care (the old 'it takes a village to raise a child' idea) and school discipline have changed. Many kids aren't getting taught right from wrong or having to take responsibility for their actions as kids, due to lazy parents and an overly PC society. So, when do they learn those things? Or don't they? Sure, some will have an inner moral code - but what about those who don't?
23-04-2009, 07:28 AM
hillbilly

I have some students who have recieved an F in all of their subjects this past year. Most of the above mentioned students have also recieved numerous detentions. And yet not one of these student's parents have emailed, called or stopped by to ask what is the problem.

Both sad and disgusting.:(
23-04-2009, 07:49 AM
phuketbound

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by friscofrankie

lessee, a 13 year old kid flipped you off. And you felt you had to follow him onhte buss and "scold" him?

I did think about that myself, having been there and done that, metaphorically speaking, a better way of handling that may have been to wait until the next day, find the student at lunch, or before school, etc. and politely talk to him, explain that you didnt like it, it was rude, etc etc.

However, I also know that in the heat of the moment, a long shitty day, the straw that breaks the camels back can be something as simple as flipping the bird.... often our job is made harder by the other teachers that simply allow students to do anything, sometimes you have to follow the smallest thing to enforce a point of manners or discipline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phuketbound

I think it is better if he flipped the bird, rather than fight.

idiot

Quote:

Although, it shouldn't be an either or question.

If it shouldn't be a question that why say it!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phuketbound

Will it be any better at the International school in Thailand?

you, obviously have no idea of what an international school in thailand is like to even ask the question.

I wasn't aiming the question at you, I was asking the question to hillbilly. The way you talk to me is condescending.

Since he is leaving the American school system, and going to teach at an International school this is a good question. Children will be children, and they may just give you the bird at any school, and in any country.

I do think that you have to pick your battles, and a lot of how you would handle a kid giving you the bird, depends on the situation. You either deal with it or not. I would just tell the child, that it is rude, and not acceptable. If he does it again, then I'd talk to him again.
23-04-2009, 08:19 AM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by phuketbound

I wasn't aiming the question at you, I was asking the question to hillbilly.

I thought you had me on ignore?

Quote:

The way you talk to me is condescending.

because the way you talk deserves it.

Quote:

Since he is leaving the American school system, and going to teach at an International school this is a good question.

he has taught in an international school before.

Quote:

Children will be children,

yes......

Quote:

and they may just give you the bird at any school, and in any country.

very unlikely to happen in any top tier international school in any country in country in the world, much less thailand.

and the response from the admin, teachers, parents will be worlds apart also.

Quote:

You either deal with it or not.

Bullshit - it's 'fully certified, qualified' teachers like you that make the job harder for the other decent teachers, you must deal with it, its the manner of dealing that we are discussing, not doing anything at all is a BS response, and causes greater problems done the line.
23-04-2009, 08:24 AM
redfoot the fence

you got quite easily hooked.

not a good thing for a teecha.

being right is beside the point.

you publicly lost your rag.

returning to thailand where kids kowtow seems a good choice for you, teecha.
23-04-2009, 08:28 AM
Butterfly

was that a private school or a public school ? in a big city or a small city ?

the problem was not flipping the finger, but the parents who went after you

glad I am not a teacher,
23-04-2009, 12:45 PM
Skettios

Why bother with the comparison? Both actions are inherently wrong.

Your school has to have a code of conduct to fall back upon right?

Next time the little shit runs past you, put your foot out.
23-04-2009, 12:59 PM
kingwilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skettios

Next time the little shit runs past you, put your foot out.

*snigger*

that sort of thing does happen....
23-04-2009, 01:25 PM
Bugs

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

I maintain that kids have not changed a great deal. Perhaps they are more aware/connected with the world around them via the internet, but kids are still more of less kids. (excepting the extreme examples mentioned above)

I think that it's not only kids that have changed, but adults as well. Folks now days are far less polite and less respectful in general. Kids get the short end of the stick because more and more of them now days have worse and worse parents. Since they are not raised to be relatively polite and respectful, many times they in turn raise kids that are not polite and respectful - and the problem only continues to get worse.
23-04-2009, 05:26 PM
Skettios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugs

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

I maintain that kids have not changed a great deal. Perhaps they are more aware/connected with the world around them via the internet, but kids are still more of less kids. (excepting the extreme examples mentioned above)

I think that it's not only kids that have changed, but adults as well. Folks now days are far less polite and less respectful in general. Kids get the short end of the stick because more and more of them now days have worse and worse parents. Since they are not raised to be relatively polite and respectful, many times they in turn raise kids that are not polite and respectful - and the problem only continues to get worse.

I agree. Kids model their behavior on our behavior. It's also harder to correct their behavior when most kids don't see much of their parents. The parents at my school look for every chance they can to dump their kids on us.

There are still good kids out there, although sometimes I feel like a moral education is a bit harder to come by.
25-04-2009, 03:42 PM
Marmite the Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingwilly

bollocks. they can start reasoning at somethign like 6 months of age.

A bit difficult if they can't actually speak. I would split the difference and say around 4.
25-04-2009, 03:47 PM
chitown

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillbilly

Today before school started his parents barged into my classroom. The father is probably in his late 50’s, was dressed in a leather jacket, sunglasses, wore a ponytail and reeked of booze

Frisco Frankie's kid flipped you off? :)

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