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  1. #26
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    F-16's are still made today in 2021.
    Well, bugger me (figuratively, not literately)

    WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFNS) -- To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the companyís facility in Greenville, South Carolina.

    Launched on Veterans Day 2019, the line is the only production facility for F-16s in the world, opening three years after the companyís long-time F-16 line in Fort Worth, Texas, wrapped up production.

    Recently, and on behalf of five foreign military partners, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. approximately $14 billion, to build 128 F-16s at the facility through 2026.
    By Air Force Life Cycle Management Center Public Affairs / Published May 18, 2021

    Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales > U.S. Air Force > Article Display

  2. #27
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    Is Russiaís Su-57 the worst stealth fighter on the planet?

    Backspit does not have the attention span to read this...

    Russiaís Sukhoi Su-57 is one of only four operational 5th generation fighters anywhere on the planet, keeping the rare company of Chinaís Chengdu J-20 and Americaís Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35. Each of these fighters was developed with different specialties in mind, but share a collective focus on a few specific design elements that have come to define their generation of aircraft, including stealth and data fusion capabilities.

    Thereís little doubt that Americaís stealth fighters are the best in the world, with China continuing work on the WS-15 engine they believe will bring the J-20 on par with Americaís dogfighting champion, the F-22 Raptor. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, on the other hand, isnít an acrobatic prize fighter like the F-22, nor is it a long-range interceptor like the J-20. It is, however, an incredibly sneaky flying supercomputer that can make other platforms in the area more lethal through its presence. Russiaís Su-57 is widely seen as the least stealthy of the 5th generation entrants, but thereís more to a fighter jet than radar cross-sections.

    Comparing these jets to one another in a head-on way doesnít really do any of them justice, as none were intended to operate alone in contested airspace full of opposing fighters. Each of these platforms was developed to fill a role within a broader force structure and strategy, and as such, are unlikely to run across one another one-on-one in even the most dramatic of scenarios. Of course, that doesnít mean we canít compare these fighters on paper, it just means that which fighter would win in a Top Gun-style dogfight isnít quite as important as which offers a greater jump in capability for the forces it supports.
    All that is to say that, the Su-57 might just be the worst 5th generation fighter on the planetÖ but that doesnít make it a bad fighter at all.

    PAK FA: The troubled beginnings of the Su-57

    The long road to the first Su-57 taking to the skies began in 1979 under the former Soviet Union, with plans to field a next-generation fighter that could enter service in the 1990s. However, the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 practically halted progress on the program, leaving Americaís F-22 Raptor to claim the title of first stealth fighter unopposed with its first flight in 1997. Real development on the modern fighter program began once again in earnest in 2002, with Americaís F-22 set squarely in the programís sights.

    By 2007, Russiaís PAK FA program, which was short for ďĎprospective aeronautical complex of front-line air forcesĒ in Russian, was once again steaming toward fielding a real stealth fighter. India, keen to have their own 5th generation aircraft, agreed to team up with the Russians to continue development and begin procuring what would eventually become the Su-57, but the partnership wasnít to last.

    In 2018, the Indian government signaled their departure from the program despite Russiaís promising claims about their first batch of prototype fighters, and while Indiaís official reasons didnít suggest problems with the program itself, unofficially, rumors swirled that India had given up the PAK FA program because the fighter it produced simply wasnít stealthy enough to survive in highly contested airspace, alongside a list of other concerns.
    Nonetheless, Russia persevered. A total of 12 prototype Su-57s were constructed for testing and assessment, and just months after India backed out of the program, Russiaís Defence Ministry signed a contract to purchase the first two serial production Su-57s, slated for delivery in 2019 and 2020. Russia had already placed their prototype fighters in ďoperational service,Ē deploying them to Syria for little more than headline fodder and a few promotional photos, but these first two production jets were to be something more: They would not only represent Russiaís top-of-the-line fighters, they would be the nationís first-ever production stealth aircraft.

    The first production Su-57 crashed before it could even be delivered

    In December of 2019, just days before the Russian military expected to receive their first serial production Su-57, the program was met with yet another dramatic setback. Sukhoi, the firm tasked with developing the Su-57, was conducting flight testing with the fighter to ensure it met the requirements for delivery when the aircraft crashed just 111 kilometers from the airfield it departed from.

    The pilot, a civilian contracted with Sukhoi, ejected and survived, but the aircraft was a total loss. In the days that followed the crash, Russian investigators would cite a failure of the tailís control surfaces for the incident, limiting the pilotís ability to control the aircraft. According to Russian media outlets, the aircraft exploded upon impact with the ground.

    It was a significant setback for a fighter program that had already spanned nearly five decades in its various iterations and a huge blow to Russiaís fragile reputation as a global military power. Shortly after the crash, Igar Ozar, the CEO of Sukhoi, resigned from his position.

    That wasnít the fighterís only issue with production

    One crash isnít the extent of the Su-57ís production woes, however. The Russian government still projects to receive as many as 76 of the stealth fighter this decade, but while they were intended to field an advanced engine system designed specifically for the aircraftís stealth role, delays in the engineís development have hindered progress. Itís now expected that each Su-57 delivered to the Russian Air Force for the foreseeable future will come fitted with the Saturn AL-41F1 engine also found in the 4th generation Su-35S.

    Not only does operating an older engine limit the performance of the Su-57, it also has a detrimental effect on stealth. Contrary to popular understanding, stealth isnít a single technology or piece of equipment, but is rather a variety of overlapping technologies, production methodologies, and combat tactics. Defeating detection and weapons lock isnít just about radar, itís also about infrared heat signatureĖand the 4th generation engines designed for non-stealth aircraft employed in the Su-57 arenít good at masking either.

    And itís not just with stealth and propulsion that the Su-57 continues to lag behind the competition. One of the aircraftís selling points has also been its sensor suite and advanced avionics ó with the Russian government claiming the fighter is capable of full 360-degree sensor coverage much like the flying supercomputer F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. To date, it does not appear that any such system is online in the Su-57, with the Rand Corporation analysis positing that sanctions placed on Russia after its military annexation of Crimean in 2014 have further hindered the systemís development.

    What is the Su-57 really capable of?

    Itís always difficult to divine real combat capability when analyzing programs like the Su-57. Itís difficult enough with a program like the F-35, which benefits from a concerted marketing campaign aimed at keeping the taxpayer happy with their investment and presenting the aircraft as a worthwhile purchase for foreign allies. Itís even more complicated in a nation like Russia, where news media is strictly controlled by the government. As a result, what we know for sure about the Su-57 and its capabilities is a shorter list than what weíre pretty confident about through analysis of open-source information, news reports, images, and video of the aircraft.

    That is to say that any concrete breakdown of the Su-57ís capabilities should be taken with a grain of salt. Those who claim to know for sure what the aircraft can do are relaying numbers and data provided to the public by Sukhoi by way of the Russian governmentĖwho, like the United States, is counting on foreign sales of the fighter to offset the high cost of the planeís development and production. In other words, Russia has at least two motives to present the Su-57 as more capable than it is: to present an image of military might in the face of Western opposition, and to entice potential buyers who want a stealth fighter but arenít allowed (or canít afford) to pursue the F-35.

    But despite the marketing smokescreen, there are a number of things we can glean about the Su-57 and its capabilities.

    Itís ranked last for stealth

    While exact figures regarding the radar cross-section of the Su-57 arenít available, the aircraftís design is indeed stealthyÖ but stealth isnít something you have or donít have, itís really more like a spectrum. Aircraft can be stealthier or less stealthy than others based on a variety of variables ranging from production tolerances in the fuselage construction to the direction from which theyíre being observed. The Su-57ís stealth is hampered by Russiaís struggle to bond body panels of the aircraft as tightly as necessary to inhibit a radar return and by its modified 4th generation engines.

    The Su-57 ranks last in stealth among its 5th generation counterparts, but that doesnít mean its stealth capabilities should be utterly dismissed. Again, in combat, itís not about whose fighter has the smallest radar cross section or infrared signature, itís about leveraging these platforms for maximum effect, and the Su-57 wasnít designed to serve as stealthy scrapper like the F-22.

    As aviation expert and Defense Editor for Aviation Week Steve Trimble once explained to me, the Russian affinity for stealth isnít as powerful as Americaís, and as such, they arenít looking to win the stealth competition. Instead, theyíre just trying to make the Su-57 a sneaky and capable fighter with bombing capabilitiesÖ and in that regard, they seem to be succeeding.

    Its avionics are headed in the right direction

    It remains unclear just how far along the Su-57ís avionics suite truly is, but Russian officials have repeatedly drawn parallels between its ability to fuse data from a variety of sensors and the F-35ís game-changing degree of situational awareness. While the full sensor suite does not appear to be operational yet, industry publications have pointed to the Russian use of open system architecture and dispersed computing within the aircraft as strong indicators that the systems aboard the Su-57 are not only advanced, theyíre upgradeable.

    The Su-57ís cheek-mounted radars, nose-mounted X-Band N036 Byelka (Squirrel) AESA radar system, and 101KS ĎAtollí infrared search and track sensor give the fighter a great field of view and everything it might need to identify even stealthy opponents on the horizon.

    Itís got speed and acrobatics

    The Su-57 may not be the stealthiest or most technologically advanced 5th generation fighter on the market, but itís still a product of Russiaís long and storied history of developing highly capable combat airframes. The same firm responsible for the Su-57 also produces incredibly capable 4th generation fighters like the Su-35, so it comes as little surprise that Russiaís first stealth fighter is no slouch in acrobatic performance.

    The Su-57ís 3D thrust vectoring gives the fighter a huge degree of maneuverability and is far superior at executing acrobatic movements at lower speeds than its non-thrust vectoring competition in the F-35 and J-20A (the J-20B is expected to add thrust vectoring capabilities). Thrust vector control allows the pilot to orient the engines of the fighter independently from the fuselage, making extremely sharp turns possible, or even flying forward while pointing the nose, and weapon systems, down at an opposing aircraft.

    Even the F-22 Raptor, widely seen as the most capable air-to-air fighter on the planet, is limited in its thrust vectoring capabilities in comparison. Itís worth noting, however, that the sort of acrobatics thrust vectoring allows for scrub a great deal of the fighterís speed, making it an approach to air combat that isnít prized by all air forces.

    The Su-57 also boasts the second-highest top speed of the class, topping out at Mach 2, just a few hundred miles per hour slower than the F-22.

    Conclusion: The Su-57 may be the ďworstĒ 5th generation fighter, but itís still a highly capable machine

    All told, the Su-57 isnít quite as advanced, quite as capable, or quite as stealthy as the other three fighters of its generation, but that isnít to say that it doesnít represent an important leap in capability for the Russian military. Like the F-117 Nighthawk, Americaís first foray into stealth technology, game changing advancements have to start somewhere, and as far as starts go, the Su-57 is a pretty good one.

    Rather than relying on stealth, a field of technology in which the Russians may be lagging behind, Sukhoi has incorporated stealth into the design of an otherwise capable platform, producing a fighter that may not be sneakier than an F-35, but remains sneaky enough to cause some real problems for opponents, even if only on the drawing board.

    To date, there are so few Su-57s in existence that any capability they offer the Russian military is superficial at best, but as production continues to spin up and the design continues to mature, Russia may yet field a positively fearsome stealth fighter. And with the U.S. leaning further into updated 4th generation (non-stealth) jets like the F-15EX, being the least stealthy 5th generation fighter is still a pretty good standing compared to the 4th-gen fighters that will remain in service for decades to come.

    The Su-57 may not lead the pack in the realm of stealth fighters, but it doesnít need to in order to pose a threat.

    https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/is-russ...on-the-planet/

  3. #28
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    (how to express it politely?)
    No need to be polite. All F16s sold to date were done under two procurement methods. European Participating Air Forces (EPAF) and Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

    A very efficient pair of procurement processes run by the US gov. US is expert at selling and supporting military equipment to folks who really could do without it.

    Under the EPAF, Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands led the effort and were given co-production rights to sell and produce F16s to European buyers. A big bunch of them.

    F16 Sales outside the EPAF were done via FMS. Countries below.

    General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon operators - Wikipedia

    All buyers made the decision to procure via their own evaluation. These are big ticket items so the buyer wants to make sure the sales contract guarantees life cycle support. This is provided and guaranteed by the US gov. Bottom line, contract is government to government.

    The Russians and Chinese have a long way to do same so most of their sales are to countries where back handers are more important to the buyer than the quality of support of it.

    So there you have it. Like it or not, the US offers a superior product and deal to serious buyers.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    So there you have it. Like it or not, the US offers a superior product and deal to serious buyers.
    I am no expert on these toys. Just seeing what a big discussion (and a lot of excitements) about the prices of the new buys in the countries that formerly were buying from one seller only, now again buying from another one only, e.g.:

    Czech Republic to buy 12 Bell military helicopters for $630 million
    The Czech armed forces is to buy eight UH-1Y Venom multi-purpose helicopters and four AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters
    Czech Republic to buy 12 Bell military helicopters for $630 million – The Defense Post

  5. #30
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Their money, their choice.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    The Czech armed forces is to buy eight UH-1Y Venom multi-purpose helicopters and four AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters
    Holy shit those are modernized versions of the Huey and the Cobra. I can not believe those are still being made.

  7. #32
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    The su 57 is the most propagandized against piece of military equipment in history. Why ? Because the fucking Americans see their F-22 piece of shit as their trophy for winning the cold war. And Russia isn't supposed to have one.

    I'll address bsnubs hit piece propaganda fucking trash , line by line , later.

  8. #33
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post

    su 57 is the worst stealth fighter on the planet

    Is Russia's Su-57 the worst stealth fighter on the planet? - Sandboxx
    The worst everyone. The worst.


  9. #34
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Holy shit those are modernized versions of the Huey and the Cobra. I can not believe those are still being made.
    There's an old saying: If it ain't fucked, don't fix it.

  10. #35
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Dead last for stealth everyone. Yeah. You don't need to be an expert at all, to know which one of these aircraft is more stealthy. The Chinese J-20 or Russian su 57. All you need to know is the definition of stealth, to know which one is more stealthy.



    But they really want to tell you that the J-20 is more stealthy. Simply delusional. They aren't as butthurt about the J-20 so they give it a pass.

    Last edited by Backspin; 19-07-2021 at 10:08 PM.

  11. #36
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Here's the YF-23 on the top. Here is the su 57 on the bottom. The YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22 because of its flat true blend wing design. Hmmm what other aircraft has that....


  12. #37
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    Oh my, someone is triggered...

    Russia to unveil brand new 5th gen fighter jet-giphy-gif

    Like I said, he doesn't have the attention span to read the article.

  13. #38
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Oh my, someone is triggered...



    Like I said, he doesn't have the attention span to read the article.
    I am a member of this English language Russian military forum and we shred articles like this regularly. The Western Defense Media I don't doubt that you believe the garbage about the funding and stuff is true. But it isn't.


  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I am a member of this English language Russian military forum and we shred articles like this regularly

    55555....

    Russia to unveil brand new 5th gen fighter jet-distantsamecaracal-size_restricted-gif

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I am a member of this English language Russian military forum and we shred articles like this regularly.

  16. #41
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    That is the funniest fucking thing I think skidmark has ever uttered.

    Does he actually think he can "shred" anything?


  17. #42
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Debatable but reckon won't be many years and all this stuff will be sans pilot anyway.
    Cheaper, better faster sort of thing without pilots. AI folks will agree, pilots will say no way.

  18. #43
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Debatable but reckon won't be many years and all this stuff will be sans pilot anyway.
    Cheaper, better faster sort of thing without pilots. AI folks will agree, pilots will say no way.
    It's getting closer.

    The Drone Wingman ...


  19. #44
    I Amn't In Jail Plan B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    The worst everyone. The worst.

    There was a saying, way back in WWII, "You can't out turn a Zero". But American pilots found out they didn't have to. They used superior speed and hit and run tactics. It didn't matter how fast a Zero turned, you fired, fucked off, came around for another go.

    Fast forward and all that rate of climb, max ceiling, max speed is no longer applicable in the days of missiles. The big question now is can you track friend and foe assets, get your assets into firing positions where the missiles do all the work, and apply EW measures to negate your foe's sensors?

    All of this, of course, is dependent on your ability to control your assets and track your foes with a good AWACs capability, keep assets on station with air-refueling ability and manage the electronic spectrum in your favour.

    You belong to the enthusiasts with the romantic notion that all air battles will be pilot v pilot in a battle of wits and aircraft capability. Sadly it will be a case of who has the better managers and tech nerds.
    Dear Anti-vaxers: Enjoy your free trial.

  20. #45
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    I did read most of it and have read it before. It's a dishonest untrue petty childish hit piece ! And you seem to think it's a legit critique by a legit military analyst.

  21. #46
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    This is a state of the art fighter. You can question some of the design choices like an adult. But you cant just call it a piece of shit , like your article did -and expect to be taken seriously.

    Last edited by Backspin; 21-07-2021 at 03:27 AM.

  22. #47
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Here is the official unveil of the new Checkmate su-75 fighter


  23. #48
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    This is a state of the art fighter. You can question some of the design choices like an adult. But you cant just call it a piece of shit , like your article did -and expect to be taken seriously.
    It is a pro vs con article and you have not read it if you think they called it a shit plane. Farking dumb, ie completely unintelligent you are socal.

  24. #49
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    It is a pro vs con article and you have not read it if you think they called it a shit plane. Farking dumb, ie completely unintelligent you are socal.
    I addressed something in the fucking , article. The article says that the su 57 ranks dead last for stealth. Now have a cursory glance at the Chinese J-20 and have a glance at the su 57 and tell me that the su 57 ranks dead last for stealth.

    Also know that the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. And then look at the YF-23 and su 57 side by side.

  25. #50
    Im bored AF Backspin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    There was a saying, way back in WWII, "You can't out turn a Zero". But American pilots found out they didn't have to. They used superior speed and hit and run tactics. It didn't matter how fast a Zero turned, you fired, fucked off, came around for another go.

    Fast forward and all that rate of climb, max ceiling, max speed is no longer applicable in the days of missiles. The big question now is can you track friend and foe assets, get your assets into firing positions where the missiles do all the work, and apply EW measures to negate your foe's sensors?

    All of this, of course, is dependent on your ability to control your assets and track your foes with a good AWACs capability, keep assets on station with air-refueling ability and manage the electronic spectrum in your favour.

    You belong to the enthusiasts with the romantic notion that all air battles will be pilot v pilot in a battle of wits and aircraft capability. Sadly it will be a case of who has the better managers and tech nerds.
    You are aware than the F-22 isn't exactly unmaneuverable ?

    The su 57 on one engine could fight an air battle with the F-35. But that's not the point anyway. The Su 57 is an air superiority heavy fighter. It is designed to go head to head with the F-22. The F-35 is a low mix fighter. It's a different class.

    But since we are arguing like teenagers , I put the su 57 up against the F-35.

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