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  1. #1
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    "There's No Such Thing As Sustainable Palm Oil."

    No such thing as sustainable palm oil – 'certified' can destroy even more wildlife, say scientists | The Independent

    Palm-oil forests certified as sustainable are being destroyed faster than non-certified land, experts have found, in a study they say blows the lid on any claims that the oil can be destruction-free.


    Plantations with eco-friendly endorsements have lost 38 per cent of their forest cover since 2007, while non-certified areas have lost 34 per cent, according to researchers from Purdue University in the US state of Indiana.


    The use of sustainability labels had allowed for even greater expansions of plantations that are driving orangutans towards extinction in southeast Asia and destroying natural carbon-absorbing rainforests, they said.


    They drew their conclusions after 15 years of fact-finding missions, using data from these missions as well as from satellite, governmental, charities and palm oil companies’ own reports, analysing 2,210 “concessions” – licensed palm-growing areas.


    From 2001 to 2016, total tree loss in Indonesian palm oil concessions was equivalent to 34.2 per cent of the area covered by the plantations but the loss in certified sustainable plantations was higher – 38.3 per cent.


    The study’s lead author, Roberto Gatti, told The Independent: “The implication is that there is no reason for companies to claim sustainable palm oil and to use labels for certified products because, in terms of deforestation, there is no significant difference between a certified and a non-certified palm oil plantation. Both need (or needed in the recent past) the complete removal of the original tropical forest.”


    Based on forest loss trends, if governments do not act immediately and end acceptance of certification schemes, the world will almost completely lose southeast Asian forests in a few decades, he warned.


    “Our research shows quite unequivocally that, unfortunately, there is no way to produce sustainable palm oil that did not come from deforestation, and that the claims by corporations, certification schemes and non government organisations are simply ‘greenwashing’, useful to continue business as usual,” he added. “No shortcuts: if you use palm oil, certified or not, you are definitely destroying tropical forests.

    “Every tropical tree, which is part of a complex tropical forest, harbours thousands of other species – insects, birds, reptiles, amphibians, birds, monkeys, primates such as orangutans, ferns, mosses – and every time a tropical tree is cut to make room for a plantation a whole community, often including very rare species, may disappear.


    According to the study, which was published in the Science of the Total Environment journal, there is a trick to “certification”: first, an old-growth tropical forest is cut (or slashed-and-burned) for paper and pulp or valuable tropical timber trades; then a traditional, non-certified palm oil plantation is started; after a certain time the traditional plantation is “transformed” into a certified one and wins a sustainability label.

    “The trick is that they make leverage on the absence of historical records on land use change, hiding the reality that even a certified concession was, in the recent past, a highly biodiverse tropical forest,” Prof Gatti said.


    His team said they also found a pattern in which deforestation slows when organisations such as the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil form, but a few years later, the forest loss speeds back up. “This can be also due to the more recent establishment of new ‘sustainable plantations’ and the need to cut new forests to fuel the increasing global market,” according to the researchers.


    The report says areas in which forest loss was detected and those of both traditional and certified plantations almost exactly overlap, so any land that is certified today was a “valuable and biodiverse” forest in the recent past.

  2. #2
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    More madness from humans. I'm dismayed constantly....

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat VocalNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    “Every tropical tree, which is part of a complex tropical forest, harbours thousands of other species – insects, birds, reptiles, amphibians, birds, monkeys, primates such as orangutans, ferns, mosses – and every time a tropical tree is cut to make room for a plantation a whole community, often including very rare species, may disappear.
    This assumes that rain forest is cut to accommodate palm oil. In many cases it is just scrub-land that is used as a plantation.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    This assumes that rain forest is cut to accommodate palm oil. In many cases it is just scrub-land that is used as a plantation.
    No, the article doesn't assume that.

    It specifically says (twice) that tree loss for 'sustainable' palm planting is 38%, which is higher than the Indonesian average for palm oil concesions of 34%.

  5. #5
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    It first states

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    of their forest cover
    Forest "cover" could be trees, scrub or ground flora.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    total tree loss in Indonesian palm oil concessions was equivalent to 34.2 per cent of the area covered by the plantations
    Tree loss, "in Indonesian palm oil concessions" is 1/3 of the plantation cover. Thus the plantation area carbon consuming palm oil trees, covered was about 2/3 of the plantation area.

    Are we to assume that the "forested cover" is 100% covered with trees, no scrub, no fallen decaying trees emitting carbon, no tree type unsuitable for the darling orangutans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    insects, birds, reptiles, amphibians, birds, monkeys, primates such as orangutans, ferns, mosses
    "Some" of which "may" live on the palm oil trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    natural carbon-absorbing
    As are Palm Oil Trees, more so or less so?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    every time a tropical tree is cut to make room for a plantation a whole community, often including very rare species, may disappear.
    Great, keep the locals at subsistence levels, for the sake of what, one more choice of vegetable oil on the supermarket shelf, '
    "aware" tourists, the odd foreign "scientist" to study.

    The purchasers of vegetable oils, Palm oil is one of 100 or so farmed alternates, do have alternates to select.

    List of vegetable oils

    List of vegetable oils - Wikipedia

    I'm sure the purchasing citizens own local farmers can supply anyone of 100+ alternates, as opposed to the brown people far away across the oceans.

    To save the Asian flora and fauna as opposed to their own poisonous chemically polluted and devoid of flora or fauna, croplands.

    Maybe the government can raise their own citizens, who ache for and deserve a better future, out of their exiting poverty. Like some counties do.

    Putting some sanctions on imported foodstuffs, to encourage local companies to enter the local market. As currently utilised by some unexceptional countries.

    "There's No Such Thing As Sustainable Palm Oil."-phat-jpg will be along soon, being in the business, to put us right.


    Last edited by OhOh; 05-08-2020 at 02:03 PM.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  6. #6
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    "Some" of which "may" live on the palm oil trees.

    Oh do tell how many orag utans live on palms and their food source is?

  7. #7
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    I wonder how some of you learned to read.

    there is no way to produce sustainable palm oil that did not come from deforestation

    <snip>

    if you use palm oil, certified or not, you are definitely destroying tropical forests

  8. #8
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    I wonder how some of you learned to read.
    Pitiful, isn't it.

  9. #9
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    OhOh is a contrarian, who simply comes out with any old shit to counter whatever has just been said.

    Rather like a Devil's Advocate, but dumbed down.

  10. #10
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    OhOh is a contrarian, who simply comes out with any old shit to counter whatever has just been said.

    Rather like a Devil's Advocate, but dumbed down.
    That's a long way of saying he's a waffler.

  11. #11
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    I suppose losing habitat and dying out is better than being caged in barbaric conditions and scofffed by ohno's mates.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    Oh do tell how many orag utans live on palms and their food source is?
    Ask cyrille or this guy, it's his post/statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    The study’s lead author, Roberto Gatti
    Quote Originally Posted by Latindancer View Post
    OhOh is a contrarian,
    I read the posts and highlight the inconsistencies. Rather that just scanning the headline, I find it more rewarding and informative.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    ohno's mates
    I don't have any mates who are forced to survive by eating apes, do you?

    Does it taste like chicken?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    is better than being caged in barbaric conditions
    Never been jailed or waterboarded on "holiday" on a Caribbean island location or otherwise, what's it like?

    Although some practices might be enjoyable to some sexual groups:

    &quot;There's No Such Thing As Sustainable Palm Oil.&quot;-gb-jpg

  13. #13
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Waffle Waffle.

  14. #14
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    Every lilttle click counts:

    &quot;There's No Such Thing As Sustainable Palm Oil.&quot;-3-gm-coin-jpg
    &quot;There's No Such Thing As Sustainable Palm Oil.&quot;-2010-jpg
    Last edited by OhOh; 05-08-2020 at 06:53 PM.

  15. #15
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  16. #16
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    (Aired recently on rt)

    THE GREEN LIE (97 MIN., AUSTRIA, 2018)


    Austrian director Werner Boote and German author Kathrin Hartmann apply the weapons of truth to the dishonesties of the ‘greenwashing’ enterprises…
    Director: Werner Boote


    97 min., Austria, 2018
    Language: German, English
    Subtitles: Russian

    Austrian director Werner Boote and German author Kathrin Hartmann apply the weapons of truth to the dishonesties of the ‘greenwashing’ enterprises by following the trail of corporate green lies to the sites of the most catastrophic environmental disasters: the tremendous impact of BP’s oil pollution on Grand Isle caused by Deepwater Horizon, the extent of the rainforest fires ignited by palm oil corporations in Indonesia, and the consequences of cattle farming on indigenous peoples in Brazil.

    After attending the SEA – Sustainable Entrepreneurship Award in Vienna, a palm oil conference in Bali, and the RWE general assembly in Essen, Werner and Kathrin come to realize that industry’s so-called ‘green products’ have no relation to true sustainability, but instead destroy the environment and undermine the truly necessary steps that must be taken. They discuss the connections of ecology and economy and the mistakes of policies that shift the responsibility of fair and sustainable resource management onto consumers with renowned experts, including professor Noam Chomsky and the journalist and activist Raj Patel.

    Trailer THE GREEN LIE english

  17. #17
    Hangin' Around cyrille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    I read the posts and highlight the inconsistencies
    You frequently misread the posts, because you're looking so avidly for something that confirms your strong bias.

    Then you post up a clump of off-topic 'points' in badly mangled English, which might sometimes contain a valid observation.

    But nobody's patience lasts long enough to read it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Interesting video, thanks for putting it up.

    There is some dispute about whether any palm oil is truly ethically sourced, though.

    Interesting that Harrison Ford heads straight to Indonesia in the video, and it's referred to as 'the epicentre of illegal palm oil production'.

    Here's a link to the website that is mentioned for further details:

    Conflict Palm Oil - Rainforest Action Network
    Last edited by cyrille; 23-08-2020 at 11:13 AM.

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