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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Compressing air is very lossy. If you compress it a lot, it becomes hot. That's much of the total energy expended for compression and it is lost as the heat dissipates.

    Besides the energy you can store that way is miniscule.
    the point is the micro science mechanics involved is irrelevant, it's only how much energy it takes to run such a car, and it has been run and tested before efficiently. Again, you have to think efficiently about the whole thing. You don't need a big air tank, the tech proposed was for urban use with a max speed of 50km/h, which would be enough for 90% of car usage. We are not running F1s here or trying to build supercars, but usable urban pods.

    so again, the technology is there and efficient, with no pollution. Input is less than a TELSA or your home electric and output is no CO2. Holly fuck, if that's not that socially and economically efficient, then wtf do we need technology for.

    Thank god the world is run by economics and finance, or we would still be living in caves with no bitcoins.

  2. #27
    กงเกวียนกำเกวียน HuangLao's Avatar
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    .....as the fantasy continues on.

  3. #28
    fcuked off SKkin's Avatar
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    Green illusions...see Planet of the Humans.

  4. #29
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKkin
    see Planet of the Humans
    The widely discredited documentary that is basically a critique of the status quo and technology from <10 years ago?

    Why, it's irrelevant.

  5. #30
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    Traton group for trucks, Scania and MAN, is changing their emphasis from hydrogen to battery electric for their future heavy trucks. There may still be some niche markets for hydrogen but the future is battery electric because of higher efficiency and cost continues going down.

    TRATON GROUP boosts investment in electric mobility | TRATON
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

  6. #31
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    ^ different directions in different places.

    The Future is Hydrogen-screenshot_2021-03-26-how-would-sa


    How would it work?

    Extracting hydrogen involves the process of electrolysis, which uses electricity to separate water molecules into its oxygen and hydrogen building blocks.
    The devices involved are known as electrolysers.

    Here

  7. #32
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    The physics and engineering for hydrogen cars of any kind just do not work out. It is possible but not efficient. The future is going to be battery electric.

    Edit: Government programs pouring lots of money into the wrong technology is not something new. A large company is pulling out. Remaining is the company Nikola, which is based on lies and fake. They presented a hydrogen truck to investors and let it drive. But it did not have any engines at all, it just rolled down a hill. The CEO is now under fraud investigation.
    Last edited by Takeovers; 26-03-2021 at 04:45 PM.

  8. #33
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    Since it takes energy to produce it ,Hydrogen is simply a storage medium. One advantage of hydrogen as an electricity storage medium is that it is light. making it a good medium for electric airplanes for obvious reasons, but also for trucks who have a max Gross Weight of 80,000 lbs and they want as much of it to be payload.
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

  9. #34
    Guest Member S Landreth's Avatar
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    Don't believe hydrogen and nuclear hype – they can’t get us to net zero carbon by 2050

    Much of the hype for hydrogen is coming from the oil and gas sector, in the hope that gullible politicians, seduced by an unattainable vision of limitless green hydrogen, will subsidise the vast investments needed to capture the emissions from gas-powered hydrogen. Their motivation couldn’t be clearer: to postpone the inevitable decline of their industry.

    The nuclear industry is also desperate to get in on that game. One has to admire its capacity to pivot opportunistically. In February, the Nuclear Industry Council (made up of both industry and government representatives in the UK) published a shiny new Hydrogen Roadmap, exploring how either large-scale nuclear or small modular reactors could generate both the electricity and the heat needed to produce large amounts of green hydrogen. But the entire plan is premised on spectacular and totally speculative reductions in the cost of electrolysis.

    Rather than being the solution we have been waiting for, this nuclear/hydrogen development would actually be a disastrous techno-fix. Low-carbon nuclear power will always be massively more expensive than renewables and we can never build enough reactors to replace those coming offline over the next decade. We also know that producing hydrogen is always going to be very expensive. The truth is, you need a lot of electricity to produce not a lot of hydrogen. All of which makes pipe-dreams about substituting hydrogen for conventional gas in the UK’s gas grid, or of producing millions of tonnes of blue hydrogen, look almost entirely absurd.

    So let’s just hold back on both the hydrogen hype and the nuclear propaganda, and concentrate instead on ramping up what we already know is cost-effectively deliverable: renewables. We need to do it as fast as we possibly can.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Landreth View Post
    Don't believe hydrogen and nuclear hype – they can’t get us to net zero carbon by 2050

    Much of the hype for hydrogen is coming from the oil and gas sector, in the hope that gullible politicians, seduced by an unattainable vision of limitless green hydrogen, will subsidise the vast investments needed to capture the emissions from gas-powered hydrogen. Their motivation couldn’t be clearer: to postpone the inevitable decline of their industry.

    The nuclear industry is also desperate to get in on that game. One has to admire its capacity to pivot opportunistically. In February, the Nuclear Industry Council (made up of both industry and government representatives in the UK) published a shiny new Hydrogen Roadmap, exploring how either large-scale nuclear or small modular reactors could generate both the electricity and the heat needed to produce large amounts of green hydrogen. But the entire plan is premised on spectacular and totally speculative reductions in the cost of electrolysis.

    Rather than being the solution we have been waiting for, this nuclear/hydrogen development would actually be a disastrous techno-fix. Low-carbon nuclear power will always be massively more expensive than renewables and we can never build enough reactors to replace those coming offline over the next decade. We also know that producing hydrogen is always going to be very expensive. The truth is, you need a lot of electricity to produce not a lot of hydrogen. All of which makes pipe-dreams about substituting hydrogen for conventional gas in the UK’s gas grid, or of producing millions of tonnes of blue hydrogen, look almost entirely absurd.

    So let’s just hold back on both the hydrogen hype and the nuclear propaganda, and concentrate instead on ramping up what we already know is cost-effectively deliverable: renewables. We need to do it as fast as we possibly can.
    The problem with reenables at this point is storage and transmission. Storage for when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing. Hydrogen is a solution. not the solution, but a solution.
    Why could we not use electricity from renewables to produce Hydrogen? storing the electrical energy in the hydrogen. Then instead of hours to pump that electrical exergy in EVs by charging batteries, why not pump that electrical energy into EVs in the form of hydrogen in five minutes?

  11. #36
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    ^ I read the above article and it was interesting.

    A couple of observations ...

    Fossil fuels provide/provided an energy with was easily transportable and could translate into easy (pollution causing) energy sources.

    In the drive to replace fossil fuels, solutions will be more country specific, mainly because the climate and landscape changes dramatically across the globe.

    for example ...

    1/ Geo-thermal in Iceland.

    2/ Solar Farms in the Northern Territory of Australia supplying Singapore.

    3/Hydro electricity in Paraguay, supplying most of Paraguay's electricity and contributes for Brazil

    4/ Wind Farm in China

    5/ Green hydrogen

    6/ Battery storage around the world


    Expanded below ...
    Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago ...


  12. #37
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
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    1/ Geo-thermal in Iceland

    The Future is Hydrogen-header_jardhiti-jpg

    Iceland is a pioneer in the use of geothermal energy for space heating.
    Generating electricity with geothermal energy has increased significantly in recent years.
    Geothermal power facilities currently generate 25% of the country's total electricity production.

    During the course of the 20th century, Iceland went from what was one of Europe's poorest countries, dependent upon peat and imported coal for its energy, to a country with a high standard of living where practically all stationary energy is derived from renewable resources.

    In 2014, roughly 85% of primary energy use in Iceland came from indigenous renewable resources. Geothermal sources accounts for 66% of Iceland's primary energy use.

    Geothermal | National Energy Authority of Iceland

  13. #38
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    2/ Solar Farms in the Northern Territory of Australia supplying Singapore

    The Future is Hydrogen-davis-solar-farm-jpg

    Northern Territory to become home to the world’s largest solar farm

    February 9, 2021Energy Matters

    Australia is set to make history after an $8 million arrangement was reached to build the world’s largest solar farm in the Northern Territory.

    In a deal with Sun Cable, the 12,000 hectares, 30-gigawatt solar farm will be built just north of Alice Springs with construction to commence in October 2023. It will generate 1500 jobs during the construction phase and 350 ongoing jobs upon completion.
    Chief Minister of the Northern Territory Michael Gunner said the project would be a huge boost for locals.

    “Territorians are already seeing the benefits of this investment, with Sun Cable hiring more than a dozen Darwin firms for initial works,” he said.

    “This project will transform the Territory into a renewable energy powerhouse, and cement our position as Australia’s comeback capital.”


    Northern Territory to become home to the world's largest solar farm

  14. #39
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    3/ Hydro electricity in Paraguay, supplying most of Paraguay's electricity and contributes for Brazil

    Hydropower is the world’s biggest source of renewable power generation with a total installed capacity of more than 1,307GW.

    It is expected to remain the biggest source during the period between 2019 and 2024, according to a report of the International Energy Agency (IEA).

    Power Technology ranks ten of the world’s biggest hydroelectric power plants by power generation capacity.


    World’s biggest hydroelectric power plants: Top ten by capacity

    1. Three Gorges Dam – 22.5GW

    2. Itaipu Dam – 14GW

    3. Xiluodu – 13.86GW

    4. Belo Monte – 11.23GW

    5. Guri – 10.2GW

    6. Tucurui – 8.37GW

    World’s biggest hydroelectric power plants


    While the Three Gorges Dam has an installed capacity of 22.5GW ... it can't produce that much.
    (plus there is much gossip that the dam has been damaged ... Three Gorges Dam deformed but safe, say operators - Asia Times)

    ---

    The Future is Hydrogen-itaipu-dam-megastructure-jpg

    It's the Itaipu Dam producing 14GW which can claim the largest 'real' capacity.

    Of the twenty generator units currently installed, ten generate at 50 Hz for Paraguay and ten generate at 60 Hz for Brazil.

    Since the output capacity of the Paraguayan generators far exceeds the load in Paraguay, most of their production is exported directly to the Brazilian side, from where two 600 kV HVDC lines, each approximately 800 kilometres (500 mi) long, carry the majority of the energy to the São Paulo/Rio de Janeiro region where the terminal equipment converts the power to 60 Hz.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itaipu_Dam

  15. #40
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    4/ Wind Farm in China

    The Future is Hydrogen-f1big-jpg

    More than 92,000 wind turbines have been built across Chinese territory, but the one that stands at the forefront of the worlds renewable energy market is the Jiuquan Wind Power Base.

    Located on the outskirts of the Gobi Desert (see above), the base is one of the worlds largest wind farms with over 7,000 turbines.

    The Jiuquan Wind Power Base, alone, is capable of producing enough energy to power a small country.

    As the largest emitter of greenhouse gases, Chinas government pledges to invest over $360 billion on renewable energy sources. Thus, they have become the worlds fastest growing market for renewable energy sources.

    The Future is Hydrogen-rwe_enformer_bg_windparks_china_1024x768-1-jpg
    Credit

    Despite the capabilities of the wind power base, it remains idle 15 percent of the time to prevent the destruction of China's overall power grid.

    The Jiuquan Wind Power Base

  16. #41
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    5/ Green hydrogen

    World’s Largest Green Hydrogen Project to Launch in California

    The global energy company SGH2 is bringing the world’s biggest green hydrogen production facility to Lancaster.

    The plant will feature SGH2’s pioneering technology, which uses recycled mixed paper waste to produce “greener than green” hydrogen that reduces carbon emissions by two to three times more than green hydrogen produced using electrolysis and renewable energy, and is five to seven times cheaper. SGH2 green hydrogen is cost competitive with “gray” hydrogen produced from fossil fuels like natural gas, which comprises the majority of hydrogen used in the United States.

    Developed by NASA scientist Dr. Salvador Camacho and SGH2 CEO Dr. Robert T. Do, a biophysicist and physician, SGH2’s proprietary technology gasifies any kind of waste – from plastic to paper and from tires to textiles – to make hydrogen. The technology has been vetted and validated, technically and financially, by leading global institutions including the US Export-Import Bank, Barclays and Deutsche Bank, and Shell New Energies’ gasification experts.

    World’s Largest Green Hydrogen Project to Launch in California – The Leading Solar Magazine In India

  17. #42
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    6/ Battery storage around the world

    World's biggest battery with 1,200MW capacity set to be built in NSW Hunter Valley

    CEP Energy said its $2.4bn battery at Kurri Kurri, north-west of Newcastle, would have a power capacity of up to 1,200 megawatts – about eight times greater than the battery at Hornsdale in South Australia, which was the biggest when it began operating in 2017.

    ---

    The Future is Hydrogen-hornsdale-battery-jpg

    Currently the worlds largest battery is located at the Hornsdale Power Reserve

    Hornsdale Power Reserve is a 150MW/194MWh grid-connected energy storage system co-located with the Hornsdale Wind Farm in the Mid North region of South Australia.

    The original installation in 2017 was the largest lithium-ion battery in the world at 129 MWh and 100 MW. It was expanded in 2020 to 194 MWh at 150 MW.

    Hornsdale Power Reserve | South Australia's Big Battery

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by David48atTD View Post
    ^ I read the above article and it was interesting.

    A couple of observations ...

    Fossil fuels provide/provided an energy with was easily transportable and could translate into easy (pollution causing) energy sources.

    In the drive to replace fossil fuels, solutions will be more country specific, mainly because the climate and landscape changes dramatically across the globe.

    for example ...

    1/ Geo-thermal in Iceland.

    2/ Solar Farms in the Northern Territory of Australia supplying Singapore.

    3/Hydro electricity in Paraguay, supplying most of Paraguay's electricity and contributes for Brazil

    4/ Wind Farm in China

    5/ Green hydrogen

    6/ Battery storage around the world


    Expanded below ...
    But that's the beauty of Hydrogen The hydrogen its self is not the energy source, the energy source is the electrical energy that it takes to separate it from the compound it is attached on, because Hydrogen does not exist in free form, being highly reactive it attaches its self to other elements forming molecules and compounds. One of these compounds/element is water (because water is both a compound and an element) to separate it from oxygen requires energy (electrical energy via electrolysis) when that hydrogen is passed through a fuel cell (I wont bore you with the process) it gives up some of that electric energy in the form of electrons, and combines with oxygen to form water again.
    That's a very simplified explanation , I am sure you know the process and I don't want to sound didactic.
    I gave the above explanation to display how hydrogen is not really the energy source but rather the medium by which energy is carried from its source of production to where it is used.
    It is not Renewable, It is not depletable, it is ubiquitous. The most abundant element in the Universe.
    The problem with energy is not that we don't have enough, we are drowning in energy , so much energy flows around the earth that it threatens to kill us at times. The problem with energy is that it is not available in forms that we can easily use it to power our cars, homes and industry .
    Energy can be produced as you said at different locations, based of the available recourses of that location, you turn that energy into usable electrical energy, and you pump that energy into water making hydrogen, you transport that hydrogen via pipelines, or trucks to the point of use and use it at the place and time of your choosing.
    Anyway that's my understanding. I hope I did not confuse more than I explained.

  19. #44
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    Hydrogen fuel cells: do hydrogen cars have a future? | Auto Express

    Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet, and having powered engines as long ago as 1807, it’s also the cleanest kind of fuel there is. However, hydrogen hasn’t really taken off in the world of motoring. Lots of manufacturers have experimented with the technology, and while some have committed to producing hydrogen-powered vehicles in small numbers, mass uptake still looks a long way off. If it ever happens at all.
    Meanwhile, the sales of electric cars continue to rise, with 162% more battery-electric vehicles sold in the year up to November 2020 compared with the same period 12 months before. And with this kind of interest, manufacturers can afford to plough money into EVs over niche tech like hydrogen.
    Another reason the case for hydrogen vehicles is struggling is the existing infrastructure. There are only a handful of hydrogen-fuel stations in the UK, which is nowhere near enough to let drivers operate as they would with petrol and diesel.
    That said, hydrogen could still be part of the automotive landscape in years to come. We’ve travelled to Swindon - the self-proclaimed capital of hydrogen in the UK - to find out what hydrogen’s future could look like.

    The sceptics’ first argument against hydrogen vehicles is that they’re less efficient than EVs are. Because hydrogen doesn’t occur naturally, it has to be extracted, then compressed in fuel tanks. It then has to mix with oxygen in a fuel cell stack to create electricity to power the car’s motors. Cynics point to the efficiency loss in this process when compared with an electric car in which the electricity comes straight from a battery pack.


    That’s true to an extent, but hydrogen-powered cars are not expected to replace EVs. Instead, for makers such as Toyota, hydrogen will complement electric power, and there’s a good reason for this: it is, and will be, the cleanest fuel possible.
    “Every single major manufacturer is either looking at or working on hydrogen cars,” says Jon Hunt, a marketing manager for Toyota and head of commercialisation of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
    “Lithium-ion battery production [for electric vehicles] is very energy-intensive. As an example, a 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles and, in order to produce that battery, it will take around 20 tonnes of CO2,” says Hunt.


    “A typical battery lasts for 150,000 miles, so that equates to around 83g/km of CO2. Then, when you take into account charging over that same distance, the same battery car will deliver 124g/km of CO2 over its lifetime,” he explains.
    In comparison, today’s hydrogen cars have life-cycle emissions that are at least as low. A recent study found a hydrogen car such as the Toyota Mirai emits around 120g/km of CO2 over its lifetime. But this can be brought significantly down when hydrogen is produced from renewables.
    A common method of hydrogen production involves separating it from natural gas (using a process called steam methane reformation), but work is underway to obtain hydrogen from biomass, which would significantly cut the life-cycle emissions from hydrogen to around 60g/km CO2. This is below the level that EVs will achieve, even when electricity is sourced from renewable sources, because of the environmental costs of battery production.
    For truly sustainable mobility, hydrogen is a fuel that cannot be ignored. Hunt says this is particularly applicable in the heavy goods sector, where electric trucks are hampered by battery capacity and having to recharge using the power grid. Yet developing a full hydrogen refuelling infrastructure, with which the gas is produced and then transported to stations, would take billions of pounds and years to develop. There are currently fewer than 20 operational refuelling stations in the UK, compared with around 36,000 (and rising) electric vehicle charging points.

    The key to encouraging hydrogen vehicles is making them part of a wider ‘hydrogen economy’ – building refuelling stations for hydrogen cars alone would be inefficient. Instead, ideally, the whole energy sector would incorporate hydrogen into the mix, from refuelling cars to storing energy for homes.
    And this can start locally. One benefit of hydrogen is that it can be produced on site rather than being transported like fuel, or supplied through the grid like electricity. “Rather than having a nationwide project, hydrogen can start out in local hydrogen hubs and work its way out,” says Clare Jackson, manager of Swindon-based Hydrogen Hub, an organisation that is promoting the hydrogen economy.


    And so we find ourselves in the Lydia Park grounds in Swindon to understand how councils can start their own hydrogen economy. The Wiltshire town is where the UK’s first fully renewable hydrogen station opened in 2011, in a Honda dealership. The station is able to produce hydrogen on a commercial scale using solar power, without relying on the UK energy grid.
    There are now six hydrogen-powered cars running on Swindon’s streets every day. This is thanks to leasing firms such as Arval, which has taken the leap into hydrogen and incorporated the cars into its fleet. Vehicles are now being leased to organisations such as the Science Museum Group and the National Trust, while Swindon Council has installed a second hydrogen station and may have more on the way, because Arval plans to have 170 hydrogen cars in the town by 2020.

    But a localised approach will never achieve a nationwide uptake.
    Toyota, Daimler and BMW are leading a group of 13 companies across the world, investing $10 billion over the next decade in developing hydrogen technology and infrastructure.

    Government investment also has a role to play. “In the UK today, around 1TW of energy is produced in renewables but not used,” says Hunt. “That’s excess generation that could be stored. This can produce around 18,000 tonnes of hydrogen – enough to power 90,000 vehicles for 12,000 miles.” Hunt says the investment needed for a plant to process and distribute hydrogen is less than the sum the country spends on nuclear power, and it’d be cleaner.
    Germany will build 400 stations by 2023, leading Hunt to warn: “UK PLC cannot afford to miss out on hydrogen; as other countries are developing their infrastructures, the UK cannot afford to fall behind.”
    But even with hydrogen infrastructure in place, be it local or nationwide, hydrogen vehicles still face the issue of costs. The Toyota Mirai retails from upwards of £65,000, and it no longer qualifies for the Government's £3,000 grant. That is a lot to pay for any car, but there are two ways to solve the question of price.

    The first is Toyota’s own. Jon Hunt says that the company’s cars are all based on a modular platform, and swapping them from a hybrid to a hydrogen structure isn’t difficult. “The [hybrid] drivetrain is totally transferable. So the adoption of the fuel cell is simply replacing the petrol drivetrain. Toyota is aiming at building 30,000 hydrogen fuel cell cars by 2020.”
    The other option is a more radical rethink. “All low-carbon vehicles demand a premium in the market, but buyers aren’t necessarily willing to pay this premium for the efficiency gains. So we need a different business model,” says Hugo Spowers, founder of sustainable car company Riversimple.
    Instead of selling its Rasa two-seater, Riversimple intends to sell its customers a ‘service’: they will never own the car, but, for around £370 a month, they’ll have access to a certain mileage of hydrogen driving, with fuel, insurance and all other costs covered.
    Spowers added: “This allows us to compete against conventional cars long enough until the supply chain costs come down. That, we believe, is a fundamental barrier to getting major uptake of the tech.”
    There are still a lot of ‘ifs’ about hydrogen, but there are far fewer today than there were a decade ago.












  20. #45
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    On board generation of hydrogen is the best way to have hydrogen vehicles. Hydrogen/gasoline hybrids. That way you can have motorcycles, cars, tractors and light trucks running on 75 to 95% hydrogen and not having the inconvenience of having to fill up a hydrogen tank. And it's not a big leap from ICE gasoline powered vehicles. The idea of having a super heavy tank with limited capacity for the storage of hydrogen is nuts!

    Lithium Ion batteries are not the best idea for grid storage batteries. Molten metal batteries are the way to go.

    Nuclear may have a bigger place in the future. It's the handling of waste that is the stumbling block.

    And why should the taxpayer be funding research on products that will be developed and sold to consumers at a profit? If the public money is provided it should be a loan at a low interest rate...not a handout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy John View Post
    Nuclear may have a bigger place in the future. It's the handling of waste that is the stumbling block.
    The way the storage of nuclear waste is framed is a red herring.
    They say it lasts for thousands of years.
    Yea it does, if our technology remains static for a thousand years. Don't we think that in ,lets say 50 years ,we would have developed better ways of dealing with the waste material , that storing it in caves?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    Why could we not use electricity from renewables to produce Hydrogen? storing the electrical energy in the hydrogen.
    Because at best it has an energy efficiency of 30-40%. Batteries are closer to 90% or better.

    Storing hydrogen is hard.

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    All hydrogen related proposals have one thing in common. They ask for huge direct government investment. Industry left to itself, goes battery electric. I provided an example, which started this discussion.

  24. #49
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    VW boss Diess made a strong statement against hydrogen cars. They are just dumb and not environmentally friendly. Elon Musk explicitly agrees with Diess.

    Of course as always, politics goes the wrong way. German minister of transport, Andreas Scheuer, disagrees. He believes all different technologies need to be researched at this time. Hydrogen continues to be a technology nobody touches unless government directly pours a lot of money in it.

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    Airbus are apparently committing themselves to producing a hydrogen fuelled aircraft by 2035. Interesting idea but compressed hydrogen tanks and delivery system will be challenging. There is also the matter of convincing the public after Hindenburg and crash safety.
    I heard Boeing aren't interested in developing a similarly fuelled airliner just yet.
    Personally, I don't think I'll be alive to witness the change.

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