Profit Over Comfort: Cebu Air a Pioneer

**tomcat** · 28-07-2019, 06:13 AM

Think Legroom on Planes Is Bad Now? It’s Going to Get Worse

By Angus Whitley and Sybilla Gross (Bloomberg)

To add more seats, Cebu Air is moving the plane’s bathrooms
Such tactics could become the norm in Asia’s hot travel market

The economy class cabin of Ryanair’s 737-800 aircraft. Photographer: Nicolas Economou/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty ImagesAir travel is becoming a test of physical endurance. Seats have shrunk, legroom has vanished -- and the airlines aren’t done with you yet.

Cebu Air Inc., the Philippines’ biggest budget carrier, last month said it was moving kitchens and bathrooms on some of its new A330neos to cram in a record 460 seats, 20 more than the plane’s current maximum. It’s part of a broader push, particularly in Asia, to stuff more people into jets flying the most popular routes, according to aviation researcher Landrum & Brown.

“It’s all a matter of squeezing as many passengers as they can,” said Mathieu De Marchi, a Bangkok-based consultant at the firm. “It’s only going to get worse over the next decade.”

Even if paying customers are less happy, packing more of them into cabins has helped turn around the U.S. aviation industry in recent years. In Asia, where 100 million people fly for the first time every year, the strategy is now the bread and butter for low-cost carriers serving an exploding middle class that cares more about price than comfort.

Asia’s demand has led to industry shortages of almost everything, from pilots and mechanics to airports and runways (to say nothing of leg room). Carriers go to great lengths to avoid buying more aircraft and having to pay for extra landing rights at airports that are close to bursting.

Airlines Have Bigger Nightmare Than Fuel -- A Runway Shortage
Buying bigger planes is one way to deal with the problem, as AirAsia Group Bhd. is doing. The Malaysian budget carrier in June said it was changing an order for hundreds of aircraft to a larger model that carries 50 more passengers and flies about 600 miles (1,000 kilometers) further.

Another tactic is simply bolting in more chairs. European low-cost carrier Ryanair Holdings Plc led the charge in 2014 when it ordered high-density jets from Boeing Co. with eight more seats than normal. Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., once a hallmark of comfort, in 2017 started cramming an extra seat into each economy row on its Boeing 777-300s, at the cost of about an inch of personal space for each passenger.

Less legroom is now the industry norm. In the early-2000s, rows in economy used to be 34 inches (86 centimeters) to 35 inches apart; now 30 to 31 inches is typical, though 28 inches can be found on short flights, according to Washington D.C.-based advocacy group Flyers Rights. Seats have narrowed, too, from about 18.5 inches to 17 inches on average.

Where someone’s personal space starts and ends can be contentious, especially when there’s not much space to begin with. It’s no surprise that air rage most commonly occurs in economy class. Flights have been forced to make unscheduled landings because passengers were bickering over reclining seats.

Janet Bednarek, an aviation historian at the University of Dayton, Ohio, says smaller seats are less controversial in Asia, partly because Asians tend to have slighter builds than Americans or Europeans.

“Where people are smaller on average it is not as big an issue,” she said. “Many people are willing to put up with discomfort in exchange for low-price tickets.”
Your Tiny Economy Airline Seat May Soon Stop Shrinking

And prices have come down. Some international flights cost less than half of what they did a decade ago, according to Australia’s Qantas Airways Ltd. Competition from low-cost carriers has forced airlines everywhere to lower fares and charge for things that were once free. Among the new extras one can buy: space.

Avio Interiors’s “stand-up” seats reduce the usual seat pitch of 30 inches down to 23 inches.

A one-way ticket to Shanghai from Manila, a four-hour flight, can cost less than $100 on Cebu Air. But there’s another price to pay: Seats on the planes are just 16.5 inches wide, less than the width of two hand spans and short of the 18-inch minimum that the manufacturer, Airbus SE, says is comfortable.

Cebu doubled down in June with a $6.8 billion order for Airbus jets that includes 16 higher-capacity A330neos. Airbus says the plane is designed to fit 260 to 300 passengers in a typical layout that has first-class, business and economy cabins. For “higher-density configurations” -- code for bare-bones economy -- the planes fit as many as 440, the manufacturer says.
Cebu is planning for 460, once the layout is certified.

In an email, Cebu Chief Executive Adviser Mike Szucs said “customer comfort and experience will be a primary consideration” but airfares are “always an aspect consumers are conscious about.”

Aviation website Simple Flying sums up the situation: “This will make for one interesting long-haul.”

**cyrille** · 28-07-2019, 06:59 AM

Mike Szucs

The flippers must have some fun with that one.

**docmartin** · 28-07-2019, 07:33 AM

What is the legal situation in general ?
If a seat is paid for, does that mean that one is obliged to put up with receiving 70 % of a seat if the adjacent seat(s) is occupied by a fat person or a giant despite paying 100 % of the fare ?
I'm over shoulder, elbow and leg contact but I presume the fine print says 'suck it up princess'.

**tomcat** · 28-07-2019, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by docmartin

What is the legal situation in general ?

...in general, whatever the market will bear...and much of the market will apparently bear incredible discomfort for cheaper fares...

**Ukan Kizmiaz** · 28-07-2019, 08:38 AM

I don't go near these airlines - I wouldn't get on a Lion Air jet in asia, and air asia and scoot etc only on the shortest of short hauls.
They cut costs everywhere - fine - I can't help but wonder what they're (not) doing in the maintenance shops, pilot training etc.

You get what you pay for - and I understand why they are thriving

**katie23** · 28-07-2019, 09:37 AM

"where people are smaller on average, it is not as big an issue"

True that. I'm an average sized Asian woman, and the seat sizes on budget airlines like Cebu Pacific or Air Asia don't bother me. I also know that they charge for checked in luggage, meals, sitting together, etc. One must read the fine print. To me, a 3-4 hour flight on a budget airline with small seats or legroom is okay. You get what you pay for.

If you're a large or taller Caucasian, then suck it up or pay for premium seats or airlines. That's air travel nowadays.

**docmartin** · 28-07-2019, 09:58 AM

How sizeist and race-specificist Katie. I'm shocked. Deeply shocked. ;-) Large westerners have needs too.
Must dust off the private jet to avoid sitting next to petite mega honeys like the one between Bangkok and Singapore on Thursday.

**harrybarracuda** · 28-07-2019, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by katie23

To me, a 3-4 hour flight on a budget airline with small seats or legroom is okay.

I would agree except I'd say 0-1 hours.

**PAG** · 28-07-2019, 12:54 PM

**TizMe** · 28-07-2019, 01:06 PM

I'm 191cm. I don't mind Cebu Pac or Air Asia for short flights... but I always pay extra to get an exit row seat, and often because its a higher cost then the seat next to me will also be empty.

**katie23** · 28-07-2019, 01:22 PM

@docmartin & PAG - heh

I think with convenience comes cost. Again, you get what you pay for. In 2005 (my first flight to Vietnam), my airfare was around 15k pesos (~300 USD) via PAL or Philippine Airlines, which was/ still is a high price for ordinary Filipinos to pay for. Having promo fares (return) at ~100 USD around SEA via Air Asia or Cebu Pacific just makes air travel more accessible to ordinary people from developing countries. I wouldn't have been able to travel around neighboring countries had it not been for budget airlines. If I have to sacrifice 3 hours of comfort to get to Bkk, KL, SGN or HK, then so be it. However, I think removing or moving toilets in a plane is terrible - that's a bit too much capitalism.

**docmartin** · 28-07-2019, 01:49 PM

True dat.
I chose to pay more to fly Qantas for the last Thailand expedition to avoid Thai Airways idiocy, and the aircraft was much more suitable.
Thai's 787 is a 3-3-3 seat row configuration which means (because management likes the window seat) that I have to sit next to somebody. Qantas's 330 is a 2-4-2 row configuration so I can avoid potential wombats.

For the BKK-SIN leg on Jetstar (Qantas proxy) the check in staff said 'you're seated separately - do you want to sit together ?'.
Huh ? Potentially expose my wife to some twit ? Oh sure. I made the booking for both of us at the same time and we have flown Qantas together before. (though last time I requested a points upgrade to business and was told that if I got it but she didn't - lower FF status - then I'd have to pay points to be put back in the cattle truck. Nice one Alan).

But on the SIN-PER leg the two guys behind us were having a very interesting chat and I couldn't quite hear all of it.
First world problem.

**Fondles** · 28-07-2019, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by docmartin

True dat.
I chose to pay more to fly Qantas for the last Thailand expedition to avoid Thai Airways idiocy, and the aircraft was much more suitable.
Thai's 787 is a 3-3-3 seat row configuration which means (because management likes the window seat) that I have to sit next to somebody. Qantas's 330 is a 2-4-2 row configuration so I can avoid potential wombats.

How does the qantas seat config have you avoiding siting next to someone ?

**docmartin** · 29-07-2019, 07:21 AM

Well my post should read '.... sit next to somebody other than my wife'.
On a 330 if she has the window, I have the aisle. Voila - no neighbour apart from the one over the road.

**qwerty** · 29-07-2019, 12:10 PM

I flew one of these budget flights from BKK to Chiang Rai a couple of years ago.

With my back flat against the seat-back, I could not sit with my knees together. I had to prop them half way up the seat back in front of me.

My short Thai friends were quite amused at my predicament. This was a short flight, but I can't imagine flying this way for more than one hour.

**happynz** · 29-07-2019, 12:16 PM

Last year I was on Sri Lanka Airlines and I was struck by the fact that even skinny blokes couldn't lower their tray tables without getting jabbed in the stomach.

**docmartin** · 29-07-2019, 02:07 PM

Lilliput land. In Thailand the cutlery doesn’t fit my hands, neither do tissues.
Everything is jammed close together for the hobbits to slip through.
I’m only 1.8m tall but hit my head on obstructions.

**Fondles** · 29-07-2019, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by docmartin

Well my post should read '.... sit next to somebody other than my wife'.
On a 330 if she has the window, I have the aisle. Voila - no neighbour apart from the one over the road.

Window seats up the front are pretty good.

**docmartin** · 29-07-2019, 03:31 PM

Yes. Away from engine noise, squawking children, toilets and odious peasantry.
But that costs more.

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