Thread: Will Human beings ever conquer tribalism?

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

ffs looper do u really believe wot u wright. by the way democracy never has and never will exist.

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

No.

Morality doesn't exist without reference to a deterministic modal where the primary drive is not so much a "decision" of "will", but more of a chemical reaction; like rust.
Hence this notion of "morality triumphing over our primal animal nature" makes no sense at all, because morality is essentially inclusive fitness in terms of the survival of a group, which is the vehicle by which social species self-form.
The "reason and intellect" and "moral" software that is running on this hardware is not axiomatically justified as righteous - it's as if it's an organism itself seeking self-preservation by trying to rationalise away the gaping holes and inconsistencies in its case. In short, it's recent, short-term, and can and will be replaced, as it replaced something before it... these "moral" systems are aspects of culture, as culture is an aspect of ethnicity, it only makes sense in its time and place, it is not the "answer". This morality is an extrinsic mutable thing, not intrinsic like whats in our DNA; and the notion that it could and should override the intrinsic deterministic "moral" system just doesn't work. It's the baby boomers generation believing their own marketing.

There is scientific research showing that babies exhibit ethnocentrism - shying away from adults of different ethnic groups - this is nature. I'm not going to repost it, but there's a ton of research demonstrating that ethnocentrism (i.e.: "tribalism") is intrinsic... it's not going anywhere, and it would save a lot of trouble if lefties would stop trying to fight it... and just learned to live with it - tolerance!

James Grier Miller, Living Systems (1978)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...judice&f=false

good post mate. did u lift this off the net, just joking mate.

Originally Posted by lob

take this on board looper. every speices adopts,,,, birds of a feather etc etc,,, thats also in our dna.

Originally Posted by lob

ffs looper do u really believe wot u wright. by the way democracy never has and never will exist.

How do you mean Lob? Sorry I am not following you entirely.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

same same mate

Originally Posted by Looper

We will always have to teach babies this stuff because our DNA makes us naturally tribal and distrustful of other races.

first of all i'm not trying to start a piss fight ,,, as it seems ive reponded to u a few times now, of coarse its the parental job to teach ur kids.

There will always be a conflict between our nature and our moral convictions.

agreed

The triumph is that we have, broadly speaking, reached democratic agreement about what those moral convictions are w.r.t. race relations.

dont think so.

i.e. all individuals should be treated equally without prejudicial regard for their racial background when it comes to education, work and social opportunities.

this is a whole other point, and soap box bull shit,,, but agree.

Originally Posted by blue

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

fact you are posting here suggests otherwise

nice piont blue,,, however, birds of a feather,,,,

Originally Posted by blue

Originally Posted by Looper

i.e. all individuals should be treated equally without prejudicial regard for their racial background when it comes to education, work and social opportunities.

so no country borders then ?

borders are a modern concept blue,,, there was a time before wats etc there were no borders,,, a better world i suspect.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by lob

take this on board looper. every speices adopts,,,, birds of a feather etc etc,,, thats also in our dna.

Originally Posted by lob

ffs looper do u really believe wot u wright. by the way democracy never has and never will exist.

How do you mean Lob? Sorry I am not following you entirely.

rest my case if u cant sort wheat from chaff,,, sorry mate

Originally Posted by lob

borders are a modern concept blue,,, there was a time before wats etc there were no borders,,, a better world i suspect.

Yes there was a time before national borders. Before that there were feudal fiefdoms and before that aggregations and alliances of tribes.

But there was never a time before war. War is a method of conflict resolution between competing coalitions of higher order organisms. Witness tribal warfare between troops of chimpanzees.

At the risk of reviving this old thread, I was down the Docs yesterday. Somehow we got onto Globalisation. His opinion was that we are not ready for it yet as we are still too tribal. Is Multiculturalism anti tribalism? Is an person who doesn't believe in multiculturalism racist? Is a belief that some cultures cannot successfully coexist racism? My belief is that some cultures can successfully coexist side by side others cannot. Am I racist? If so so be it. My view comes from observation having lived in a few different countries and my extended travels over the years.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Will Human beings ever conquer tribalism?

You are asking if we 'will ever' conquer tribalism and then pointing to various extant primitive societies as evidence of our failure.

Look around you and read a news website. Modern civilisation and globalised society is humanity's blindingly obvious victory over his own innate tribalism.

We are exhorted to stamp out racism at every turn because we have used our intellect to overcome our tribalism.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Is there something in our psyche that causes us to naturally mistrust someone who looks racially different and gravitate to one of our "own"?

Yes there is but we use our cognitive rational reason to overcome these primitive feelings and build a fair society.

ffs

Originally Posted by thaimeme

We all remain tribal and class driven in one degree or another.

Instinctively inherited in our DNA.
One might observe that all life forms are of this nature.

Nothing distinctive, exceptional or different regarding our species that we might overcome such intrinsic traits.



Conquer...??

read this again looper

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

James Grier Miller, Living Systems (1978)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...judice&f=false[/quote]

Ummm... can you say that again like what you just said except but a bit simpler?


bingo.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

but u are and u do..... its not a choice, till death do u part.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by lob

borders are a modern concept blue,,, there was a time before wats etc there were no borders,,, a better world i suspect.

Yes there was a time before national borders. Before that there were feudal fiefdoms and before that aggregations and alliances of tribes.

But there was never a time before war. War is a method of conflict resolution between competing coalitions of higher order organisms. Witness tribal warfare between troops of chimpanzees.

i can see that u have tried to educate yourself looper, and in fact continue to do so ... sadly , in your case knowing something doesn't mean u understand it. maybe attend one of my lectures,,, all will be revealed.

Originally Posted by VocalNeal

^ What is culture? It is a learned experience.

If I go to a strange country and things are different then I have a choice. I can either bend to my hosts ways or I can hang out with people whose ways of doing things and beliefs are close to my learned ones.

All the negative stuff comes from within and of course if there are sufficient people around me to back me up.

now that's understanding in progess. well done neal

Originally Posted by lob

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Will Human beings ever conquer tribalism?

You are asking if we 'will ever' conquer tribalism and then pointing to various extant primitive societies as evidence of our failure.

Look around you and read a news website. Modern civilisation and globalised society is humanity's blindingly obvious victory over his own innate tribalism.

We are exhorted to stamp out racism at every turn because we have used our intellect to overcome our tribalism.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Is there something in our psyche that causes us to naturally mistrust someone who looks racially different and gravitate to one of our "own"?

Yes there is but we use our cognitive rational reason to overcome these primitive feelings and build a fair society.

ffs

Back in the days of prehistoric tribalism there was no written language and humans communicated using pictures

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

^^
Could that not be because we are imprinted to spread our "superior" genes over as many people as we can?

Hmm...interesting until you consider that marriage involves a woman too. Your idea is male-centric and doesn't quite make good reason.

That's a pc feminist idea, while "marriage", a latter day socio-economic construct, doesn't even come into the equation.

Attraction, copulation and bonding does though, as in nature, the male is there to help and protect the female, while the female is primarily a source of pleasure for the male.

It's the female that makes the final choice as to which kind of male impregnates her, choosing the strongest male out of a bunch of males competing for the most desirable thus more attractive females.

Hierarchic tribalism evolves from that, to consolidate the power of the strongest over the less desirable weaker elements that may pose a threat to the group's survival.

The result is a tendency for species to produce strong, increasingly attractive, well formed offspring rather than weak, mal-formed, unattractive ones, thus the survival of the fittest.

Originally Posted by ENT

The assertive "fight or flight" survival instinct is the driving force behind attraction or aversion to something, from the acquisitive tendency across to the defensive.

What a load of rubbish.

Originally Posted by ENT

It's the female that makes the final choice as to which kind of male impregnates her, choosing the strongest male out of a bunch of males competing for the most desirable thus more attractive females.

Yet you somehow sired a son, thus disproving your whacky theory.

Ooops....there's a flaw in my conclusion: Obviously the dregs mate with the dregs.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Originally Posted by ENT

The assertive "fight or flight" survival instinct is the driving force behind attraction or aversion to something, from the acquisitive tendency across to the defensive.

What a load of rubbish.

You're out of touch with well accepted mainstream findings if that's what you believe,..but par for the course in your case.

Originally Posted by ENT

It's the female that makes the final choice as to which kind of male impregnates her, choosing the strongest male out of a bunch of males competing for the most desirable thus more attractive females.

Yet you somehow sired a son, thus disproving your whacky theory.

On the contrary, it proves it. ....amazing that you, a teacher, don't know even the simplest anthropological views on human development.

Ooops....there's a flaw in my conclusion: Obviously the dregs mate with the dregs.

Very true in your case.

^ WOW!!! such rapier wit.
Just like a 4 year old..."No I'm not, you are."

Originally Posted by ENT

You're out of touch with well accepted mainstream findings if that's what you believe,..but par for the course in your case.

You're saying I am attracted to my Asian wife (and she to me) because of the fight or flight response.

TD mods....we really need a "cuckoo" or "crazy" emoji. The ROFL one just doesn't say enough sometimes.