Possible relocation to Shanghai

**AndyCap** · 24-02-2016, 03:19 PM

Deep sigh*

People looking to emigrate as in the survey above can not be compared to expats looking for a good "gig"

The expats are simply rotating behind the main business groups, automotive, pharma, etc. This has nothing to do with people looking to emigrate somewhere else.

FFS

**Henrie** · 24-02-2016, 03:22 PM

It's about where people who have a choice want to live, be it expat workers or the well off. If a well paid job buys a good quality of live in China, why do some many that are capable of buying it and experts on China not want to, per the survey?

Having met and discussed it with educated Chinese who refuse to set foot there again, I can see why.

**AntRobertson** · 24-02-2016, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by AndyCap

Deep sigh*

People looking to emigrate as in the survey above can not be compared to expats looking for a good "gig"

The expats are simply rotating behind the main business groups, automotive, pharma, etc. This has nothing to do with people looking to emigrate somewhere else.

FFS

Exactly.

Apples cf. oranges.

**AndyCap** · 24-02-2016, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

It's about where people who have a choice want to live, be it expat workers or the well off. If a well paid job buys a good quality of live in China, why do some many that are capable of buying it and experts on China not want to, per the survey?

Having met and discussed it with educated Chinese who refuse to set foot there again, I can see why.

Yes, people who have a choice, expats looking for work are still needing employment, China is a good "gig" none of the people I know are looking to emigrate here, just pick up the money, most long termers investing in retirement in SEA, etc. Good quality of life? Not really, working environment as an expat specialist OK. Giving your kids the chance to learn basic mandarin OK.

Well educated Chinese who don't want to set foot here again probably have good reason, they got rich in a communist system, better to get the hell out of it, before the next "well educated Chinese" comes along and takes it off them.

Christ...

**Henrie** · 24-02-2016, 03:49 PM

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there.

Every international school in London teaches Mandarin if that is a priority.

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat who chooses to stay away even longer for that reason has messed up somewhere.

**AndyCap** · 24-02-2016, 03:56 PM

There is one person stating he has the choice of China or London.

I held off for years for all the usual arguments, eventually ended up here. Again, it's simply another well paid posting, gave my kids the chance to learn the basics, etc. It's China, we will all be confronted with it in Asia in one way or another in the coming years , having it in your CV is an advantage, understanding it if you are claiming to be an "Asian" hand is a must.

I don't want to go back to Europe, need to work here to send the kids through school, etc. It's a massive market, the compensation reflects this.

Many expats working in Asia for foreign companies will at some stage be confronted with what's more than 50% of the market I.e. China. They are not being offered London

They are also nothing to do with the well heeled Chinks trying to bugger off with their ill gotten gains.

**OhOh** · 24-02-2016, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

You might like to check out tourism figures for London and Shanghai to see where most people prefer to visit.

I don't dispute your figures at all. many people all around the world want to visit Europe because it has and has had many years of refining the tourism marketing. Europe has historically been far easier to visit and has a variety of tourism options. All I might say are very well managed. Europe has some of the most famous, must see and be photographed by, icons. All good for the facebook page and even here on TD.

Asia is sold as an exotic, hot but comparable, to Europeans, less expensive. We used to bring our worldwide management + hangers on 30+, to Asia for conferences annually, for much less than Europe or North America. To get the same standard of accommodation, services, travel and food Europe is ten times more expensive. Not the bucket and spade brigade who flock to Spain, Portugal, France Italy, Greece, Turkey etc. Most visitors tend to travel Asia as members of groups. There are increasingly more individual travelers but Asia, outside the group, 5* tourist, has not been visited. Many backpackers but not the masses.

Asia needs to get it's marketing and connectivity up to scratch. That is if they want Europes Bucket and spade tourists.

Having said that Chinese tourists will soon flood Asia. Currently only the HiSos venture outside. Once the working and middle classes have more disposable income and decide to start spending watch out Asia. Even here there is a thread about Chinese RV tourists beginning to cross the Thai border and look at the negative racist comments. the Chinese have yet to experience tourist visits in their own country. How many of them have a passport?

As for your HiSo Chinese wanting to leave China, we shall see. Will they be welcome, will there be anything to visit, can they integrate/earn a living, I don't know. Historically any Chinese immigrants have formed enclaves, China Towns etc. Asians appear to need the constant comfort of fellow immigrants.

I also suspect the numbers are miniscule compared to the masses and will quickly be forgotten. There may be legitimate reasons currently to form a bolthole abroad, if you can. People have always, from many countries chosen the "grass is always greener" attitude. Some have revelled in it, others burnt their bridges and are stuck in a now less desirable existence.

For sure China has many problems, the difference between it and western countries is that it recognises the shortfall and is taking steps to alleviate the causes of the problems. Most western countries either cannot afford to update, do not accept there is a problem or their governments choose to squander the public wealth.

Shanghai has the new western type of environment cheek to jowel with old typical China Town communities. it's a buzzing, do anything city. Foreigners are still a very small minority and as such have not accumulated the wrath of the locals. They remember foreigners from the past and still do not trust them, that will take many decades. A good local guide is a must to enjoy any new place and I would request my new employer, if they wanted me to stay with them, to arrange a suitable one.

London on the other hand is groaning under state imposed stagnation, the cities are crumbling, the infrastructure is inadequate. Try driving around the London motorway, any time other than 3-5 in the morning it is gridlocked, try driving up the M1, its similar bumper to bumper queues. The railways are disgusting, the hotels overpriced and serviced by the same underpaid Asians, east Europeans and Africans the population despises. Take a cab from central London to the airport £60+for a 20 mile but 2hr journey. The £6 Bangkok to the airport trip is another world.in terms of convenience, cost and comfort.

Just my opinion of course.

**Bobcock** · 24-02-2016, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there. It's not, if it is the same, I won't be going there

Every international school in London teaches Mandarin if that is a priority. It's not, my son (if he even goes with me) has no interest in studying Mandarin, he's there to do this A Levels.

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat who chooses to stay away even longer for that reason has messed up somewhere. Not sure what you are saying but I'm earning about 4 times in BKK than I would be in the UK.

above

**Henrie** · 24-02-2016, 04:19 PM

A comfortable salary for an average professional in the UK would be £4k per month (200k baht). Of course, the likes of directors, surgeons, lawyers, city bankers etc earn much more. If you are earning 800k baht per month in Bangkok then well done you. (but it's going to hurt when it ends if one becomes accustomed to it and takes it for granted).

**OhOh** · 24-02-2016, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat

Most people take an expat position purely for the money or more recently being one of the "downsized". Most haven't a clue about the country they're going too and never step out of the expat community. They have bills to pay and hopefully obtain a married person posting to keep the family together. Some jump at the chance to be paid additional "allowances", to be subsumed into a new culture and expand their skill set. Differernt strokes for different folks.

**AntRobertson** · 24-02-2016, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there.

Nobody needs to do anything. Why not just stay home all the time and go nowhere for any reason.

There's more to life than just money. Or London for that matter.

**terry57** · 24-02-2016, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

A comfortable salary for an average professional in the UK would be £4k per month (200k baht). Of course, the likes of directors, surgeons, lawyers, city bankers etc earn much more.:

200 K Baht is $2000 AUD a week, In Perth a senior Teacher earns this or a Fire officer after 3 years with his stripes.

It's nothing now in the real world considering the cost of everything.

**Henrie** · 24-02-2016, 04:40 PM

Yes it's not a fortune. I have no idea what Bobcock has been offered in London and what four times it is here but that kind of salary drop would shock anyone.

I am curious about what industry pays four times as much here assuming a similar level in an organisation. I won't ask though.

**rickschoppers** · 24-02-2016, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there.

Every international school in London teaches Mandarin if that is a priority.

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat who chooses to stay away even longer for that reason has messed up somewhere.

I disagree with a couple of your comments.

1. A foreign language is better learned in that foreign country where one hears it daily and speaks it correctly. Learning a foreign language in a classroom is not nearly as affective.

2. Having worked as an expat, one of the main incentives for me was $95,000 tax free break. Also, I wanted to see another part of the world, as many of us do. To equate this to having "messed up somewhere" is a silly notion.

**Henrie** · 24-02-2016, 05:18 PM

^ Point one above is moot now and I don't think anyone would live in a country simply so their offspring can learn the language.

Point two and what I meant was, if you stay away for so long that you become stale in your domestic employment market and lose your earning potential, that's a heavy price to pay. I'm all for spending a few years seeing somewhere new but I wouldn't stay too long and I'd always be conscious that I might want or need to go home one day.

For some reason Bobcock is only worth a quarter back there.

**beerlaodrinker** · 24-02-2016, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there.

Every international school in London teaches Mandarin if that is a priority.

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat who chooses to stay away even longer for that reason has messed up somewhere.

in my industry(mining) I can earn more overseas than in Australia simply because overseas I'm not taxed up the ying yang and the cost of living Allows me a better lifestyle all round, at my level I'm never going to hold an office/ cushy job anyway so it's always going to be deserts or jungles, booms and busts come and go and right now a lot of industry's are fooked, not just mining. Trick is to make hay while the sun shines. Having held expat positions for 15 years mostly in Asia I would say I'm miles in front. I choose to stay away for a good reason, sorry Henrie but I can't relate to expats having "messed up" I would hazard a guess that the OP bob is very good at what he does and thus remains employable, even has a choice of 3 new locations , would like to be in a situation like that myself.

**hazz** · 25-02-2016, 01:21 AM

I am 2 years into a london stint, living and working by the thames... and loving it. My bothers been in shanghai on and off for 10 years in the french concession and he loves that too.

I suspect you will find both a good decision, but as people have pointed out tax and cost of living can be quite high in shanghai.

Personally the primary issues I had with shanghai were the stealth missiles, sorry electric scooters which come out of nowhere and try to run you down. pulse this quaint belief that if you blow your car horn all driving rules and conventions are temporally suspended. blowing the horn the instant you have to stop because something is in front of you is mandatory. seriously minor stuff.

Tip if you do go. if you are in a Manchurian restaurant don't order fish... unless you like a lot of attention.

**Bobcock** · 25-02-2016, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Henrie

Yes it's not a fortune. I have no idea what Bobcock has been offered in London and what four times it is here but that kind of salary drop would shock anyone.

I am curious about what industry pays four times as much here assuming a similar level in an organisation. I won't ask though.

It's not that simple and also tax is taken into the comparison.... i.e. 4 x the take home.... but in the UK I would not have to cover rent and schooling (well over 1m B/year)

I also talking about what I earned 10 years ago when I left against what I earn now, although what I earn now isn't that much different to what I earned most of the time I've been here, been pay frozen for years.

Based on what I would like to be offered in London against what I am on here, it's still a clear 3 times more.

**OhOh** · 25-02-2016, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Henrie

you become stale in your domestic employment market and lose your earning potential

Assuming of course your "domestically employed" comparison has either:
1. An expanding job role.
2. A job.

I doubt if the poster is moving to China to be a Barista or Sales Clerk. China is a growing country in many ways, China is expanding all around the world with employment projects. Do we have any other country doing similar, currently?

Originally Posted by hazz

I had with shanghai were the stealth missiles, sorry electric scooters

Surely not in the environmental soup of Shanghai. I presumed they all had a horse and cart or black smoke emitting diesel 3 ton trucks.

**Seekingasylum** · 25-02-2016, 12:03 PM

Out of interest, is Cockbob an Antipodean or an immigrant brat who grew up in Oz?

**Bobcock** · 25-02-2016, 12:10 PM

Hahahaha.... I'm Thai you bell end....

**VocalNeal** · 25-02-2016, 02:02 PM

Heart vs. head (brain) .

It depends on what type of person you are?

Sit around the dinner table and let everyone in the family have their say. Then decide and then have another meeting to explain why.

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to do what is best for children's education / future.

**hazz** · 25-02-2016, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by OhOh

Surely not in the environmental soup of Shanghai. I presumed they all had a horse and cart or black smoke emitting diesel 3 ton trucks.

I know ohoh, the real world is truly incredible... its a shame you have to limit yourself to what you can dream up in your imaginary world.

**Mr Earl** · 25-02-2016, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Hahahaha.... I'm Thai you bell end....

You're about as Thai as Robert de Niro. And he made a lot of money driving a NYC taxi with Jodie Foster as his girl friend....go figure....

If it was me I'd put in a request for central France, the Dordogne valley specifically. I think that's where the smart people in London go to get away from the rat race.

**thaimeme** · 25-02-2016, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Henrie

The point is, why go there if the money is as good in London? No expat looking for work needs to go there.

Every international school in London teaches Mandarin if that is a priority.

Any falang who can't earn as much in their native society as they can as an alien expat who chooses to stay away even longer for that reason has messed up somewhere.

And then there is possibility that some might not find grand financial advancement to be the end all - there are other considerations that go unchallenged. Connections, social environment, respective comfort zones, situational lifestyles, etc. -

Any said standard of comparatives cannot be placed upon any imagination of life.

Thread: Possible relocation to Shanghai

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