Memorial Day Holiday

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 08:23 AM

Normandy Invasion –

As the tension betweenGermany and theUnited States grew, it became obvious that a French invasion was crucial to liberate Europe and lay the ground work for defeating Hitler. Five beaches were stormed using the amphibious forces of theUnited States,Canada andGreat Britain. The troops were further protected by three airborne divisions. Omaha saw the worst of the fighting and troops were further challenged by the difficult terrain and the inaccurate landing maps. Despite the challenges, the area was secured and troops continued their march -eventually making their way successfully to Paris.

Bitter cold during Battle of the Bulge

Battle of the Bulge – A month after the troops reached Paris, their continued march found them stalled along the German border. Though the Germans were well within striking distance, winter soon unleashed a harsh fury and their continued efforts were further hampered by December, however, General George S. Patton was determined to push his troops through Bastogne, Belgium within a 24-hour time period – a feat doubted by most. Germany’s Panzer division, intending to siegeAntwerp, was halted. With the air power assistance, the Allies were able to push the Germans back to their own lines."

Battle of Monte Cassino, 17 January–18 May 1944: 185,000 casualties

Battle of France, 10 May–25 June 1940: 469,000 casualties

And not to forget Patton who was held up from entering Berlin by politics.

**Loy Toy** · 23-05-2015, 08:35 AM

Wasn't it Hitler's mistake when he called his troops back to defend Germany against the Russian advance.

I am not trying to belittle the Allies contribution but in my opinion Russia's involvement was significant to the point some historians award the victory over Hitler to Stalin.

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Wasn't it Hitler's mistake when he called his troops back to defend Germany against the Russian advance.

I am not trying to belittle the Allies contribution but in my opinion Russia's involvement was significant to the point some historians award the victory over Hitler to Stalin.

Well, the Allies marched steadly from the beaches of Normandy to the outskirts of Berlin where they were halted so the Russians could have that prize.

In essence, the War in Europe was won by the Brits, Americans, French etc. Recall we kicked Hitler's ass in north Africa & throughout Italy.

**bowie** · 23-05-2015, 09:10 AM

World War II - the Allies beat the Axis. It was a group effort. Too many fronts and too many battles to define whose contribution resulted in the defeat. Without each others contributions and help, perhaps the world would be a far different place.

WW2 Statistics

Total War Deaths by Nation: (in some cases, numbers are averaged from multiple sources due to discrepancies).

Soviet Union: 25,000,000
China: 15,000,000
Germany: 8,000,000
Poland: 5,720,000
Dutch East Indies: 3,500,000
Japan: 2,870,000
British India: 2,087,000
French Indochina: 1,600,000
Yugoslavia: 1,363,500
Philippines: 807,000
Romania: 800,000
Hungary: 580,000
France: 550,000
Italy: 454,600
United Kingdom: 450,900
United States: 418,500
Korea: 430,500
Lithuania: 350,000
Czechoslovakia: 325,000
Greece: 563,500
Netherlands: 301,000
British Burma: 272,000
Latvia: 230,000
Austria: 120,000
Ethiopia: 100,000
British Malaya: 100,000
Finland: 97,000
Belgium: 88,000
Estonia: 50,000
Singapore: 50,000
Canada: 45,400
Australia: 40,400
Albania: 30,000
Bulgaria: 25,000
New Zealand: 11,900
South Africa: 11,900
Norway: 9,500
Thailand: 7,600
Denmark: 3,200
Brazil: 2,000
Luxembourg: 2,000
Iraq: 500
Ireland: 200
Iran: 200
Turkey: 200
Iceland: 200
Mexico: 100
Switzerland: 100

Total: 72,468,900

**harrybarracuda** · 23-05-2015, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Wasn't it Hitler's mistake when he called his troops back to defend Germany against the Russian advance.

I am not trying to belittle the Allies contribution but in my opinion Russia's involvement was significant to the point some historians award the victory over Hitler to Stalin.

Well, the Allies marched steadly from the beaches of Normandy to the outskirts of Berlin where they were halted so the Russians could have that prize.

In essence, the War in Europe was won by the Brits, Americans, French etc. Recall we kicked Hitler's ass in north Africa & throughout Italy.

The war would definitely not have ended as quickly if Russia hadn't sucked so much out of Hitler's resources. But Hitler still would have been stopped eventually.

Would have killed a lot more Joos though.

I still don't know what possessed him to attack Russia, how on earth he thought he could win I don't know.

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Wasn't it Hitler's mistake when he called his troops back to defend Germany against the Russian advance.

I am not trying to belittle the Allies contribution but in my opinion Russia's involvement was significant to the point some historians award the victory over Hitler to Stalin.

Well, the Allies marched steadly from the beaches of Normandy to the outskirts of Berlin where they were halted so the Russians could have that prize.

In essence, the War in Europe was won by the Brits, Americans, French etc. Recall we kicked Hitler's ass in north Africa & throughout Italy.

The war would definitely not have ended as quickly if Russia hadn't sucked so much out of Hitler's resources. But Hitler still would have been stopped eventually.

Would have killed a lot more Joos though.

I still don't know what possessed him to attack Russia, how on earth he thought he could win I don't know.

Could have had a Napoleon complex?

**Storekeeper** · 23-05-2015, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by bowie

Originally Posted by Stinky

Ok I shouldn't be telling you this so I'll only tell you the once, Shhhh,,,, it was a false flag attack designed to create fear in the masses and get them to accept new draconian laws that infringe mahoosively on their God given freedoms and civil rights.

https://factreal.wordpress.com/2010/...ainst-america/

1979 Iran Hostage Crisis: seizure of US Tehran Embassy, Iran (Nov 4, 1979 for 444 days)
1983 Bombing of US Beirut Embassy, Lebanon (April 18, 1983)
1983 Bombing of US Marine barracks, Beirut, Lebanon (Oct 23, 1983)
1983 Bombing of US Kuwait Embassy (Dec 12, 1983)
1984 Bombing of US Beirut Embassy (again) (Sept 20, 1984)
1984 Kuwait Airlines Flight 221 hijacked to Tehran – American passengers murdered (Dec 3, 1984)
1985 Hijacking TWA Flight 847 hijacked to Beirut (June 14, 1985)
1985 Hijacking cruise ship Achille Lauro, wheelchair-bound American is thrown overboard & killed (Oct 7, 1985)
1986 Bombing Berlin disco frequented by US servicemen (April 5, 1986)
1988 Bombing Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, 100’s murdered (Dec 21, 1988)
1993 First bombing World Trade Center, New York City, 7 Killed, 1,042 wounded (Feb 26, 1993)
1993 Foiled NY Landmarks plot by Omar Abdel Rahman to blow up the Holland and Lincoln tunnels
and other New York City landmarks
1993 Attempted Assassination of Pres. Bush Sr. during visit to Kuwait (April 14, 1993)
1993 Black Hawk Down: shot down US helicopters in Mogadishu, Somalia,
during Operation Restore Hope (Oct 3-4, 1993)
1994 Plot to assassinate President Clinton during visit to the Philippines
1995 Failed Project Bojinka by Ramzi Yousef to blow up a dozen US airliners over the Pacific (end in Jan 1995)
1995 Bombing US military headquarters, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (Nov 13, 1995)
1996 Bombing Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia, housing U.S. foreign military personnel (Jun 25, 1996)
1998 Bombing U.S. Nairobi Embassy, Kenya, Africa (Aug 7, 1998)
1998 Bombing U.S. Dar es Salaam Embassy, Tanzania, Africa (Aug 7, 1998)
1999 Foiled LAX Millennium plot by Ahmed Ressam to bomb Los Angeles International Airport
(Ressam was arrested at US Canadian border)
2000 Failed USS The Sullivans bombing that was refueling in the port of Aden, Yemen. (Jan 3, 2000)
2000 Bombing USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, 17 U.S. Navy sailors murdered (Oct 12, 2000)
(The USS Cole was not engaged in any combat during this period)
2000 Bombing plaza across from US Manila Embassy (Dec 30, 2000)
2001 9/11 attacks: World Trade Center, Flight 93, Pentagon, 3000+ murdered (Sept 11, 2001)

Looks like the terrorists were busy during the Reagan and Clinton years.

**bsnub** · 23-05-2015, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

I am not trying to belittle the Allies contribution but in my opinion Russia's involvement was significant to the point some historians award the victory over Hitler to Stalin.

You are not far off in that assessment. D-Day would not have been possible with out the war on the Eastern front. Almost all of the largest battles were there. Kursk, Stalingrad and Kharkov to name a few. Hitler had to commit a disproportionate amount of manpower and resources there. Without Russia the Nazis would have won WW2.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

In essence, the War in Europe was won by the Brits, Americans, French etc. Recall we kicked Hitler's ass in north Africa & throughout Italy.

This quote is just flat out wrong. So the eastern front was never fought in Europe eh?

Also Rommel fought the Brits to a stand still even though he was vastly outnumbered and initially he bloodied the nose of the Americans as well. That theater was lost due to logistics because Hitler had to divert more and more resources to the Eastern fron and because Rommel was called back to Europe to recover from illness during second battle of El Alamein. The Germans had to send in Georg Stumme from the Eastern front do lead the defense and he was totally unfamiliar with North Africa.

Hardly an ass kicking.

**koman** · 23-05-2015, 11:39 AM

It's quite absurd to suggest that the Soviets won the war in Europe, but there are always those who never fail to give all the credit for everything to anybody other than their own country.

The Soviets certainly made a very worthwhile contribution by wearing down and eventually defeating the German sixth army at Stalingrad. Stalin and his generals cared nothing for casualties and were going to win even if it meant killing the whole Soviet army. They executed thousands of their own men for what the commissars deemed to be "anti-Soviet" behaviour. One 18 year old soldier was shot because he had been overheard saying that the German Stukka pilots seemed to be well trained.

Stalingrad was a massive blow to the Reich, but it had been a strategically horrible move in the first place.

Germany lost WW11 because it tried to fight on too may fronts. The defeat of the German sixth army was caused more by huge logistical problems, unmanageable supply lines, and the awful weather, far more than anything the Soviet army did to them. Fortunes of war one might say.

Most of the smarter sixth army commanders would have happily strangled Hitler and the whole Nazi top brass for sending them there in the first place.

The atrocities committed by the Soviets against the German civilian population later on made most of what the Nazi's had done pale by comparison. Whole regiments behaved like absolute savages, with those from the Eastern (Asian) soviets probably winning the prize for depravity.....although there was plenty of depravity to go around in those days.

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 11:44 AM

^
That's the historical record for sure. The only reason Stalin beat Hitler was through sheer numbers. Look up the definition of cannon-fodder and you'll see hoards of Russian peasents thrown into the front lines. That and some war material the US shipped to Russia.

**Loy Toy** · 23-05-2015, 12:28 PM

^

Absolutely correct Booners, he did exactly that and mainly because he didn't have the Bomb.

If he would have had the bomb he would have used it and not as Sparingly as the Americans did against Japan. I reckon every major German city would have been levelled.

**bsnub** · 23-05-2015, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by koman

It's quite absurd to suggest that the Soviets won the war in Europe

Who said that? I said that D-Day would not have been possible without the war on the Eastern front. The Russians may not have won the war in Europe but the other allies could not have won it with out them.

Originally Posted by koman

Germany lost WW11 because it tried to fight on too may fronts. The defeat of the German sixth army was caused more by huge logistical problems, unmanageable supply lines, and the awful weather, far more than anything the Soviet army did to them. Fortunes of war one might say.

I would not disagree with most of that however it was a war of attrition that ultimately cost the Germans defeat in the East. Most of their state of the art tanks and equipment was lost there. Hitlers obsession with destroying Stalingrad instead of pushing towards Moscow and securing the oilfields in the Caucus were the most decisive reasons the Germans lost.

**Stinky** · 23-05-2015, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Originally Posted by DrB0b

If you want to commemorate those who defeated Hitler then the 1st of May or December 18th, Stalins birthday, are the usual days for that.

Another very intriguing thread possibility that I have considered starting but probably would get binned.

The Russians won the war in Europe and the Americans won the war in the Pacific.

The Russians played a huge part in the winning of WWll but there main contribution was in delaying and distracting the Bosch in their own lands. Had hitler not been forced to throw so many resources into Russia the war would have lasted many more years, but to say that they won the war isn't correct.
Hitler made a tactical error when he broke his non aggression pact with Russia and invaded them and that was the start of his demise.

**bsnub** · 23-05-2015, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Stinky

Hitler made a tactical error when he broke his non aggression pact with Russia and invaded them and that was the start of his demise.

That was a strategic error not a tactical one.

**Stinky** · 23-05-2015, 01:31 PM

Tomatoes Tom"ah"toes

**rickschoppers** · 23-05-2015, 01:49 PM

Memorial Day to me is for remembering our freedoms. Veterans Day is also for remembering the US Armed Forces.

Memorial Day weekend has also meant the Indy 500 which I may not be able to watch this year unless I go to a sports bar here in Thailand.

**Klondyke** · 23-05-2015, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by koman

Germany lost WW11 because it tried to fight on too may fronts. The defeat of the German sixth army was caused more by huge logistical problems, unmanageable supply lines, and the awful weather, far more than anything the Soviet army did to them. Fortunes of war one might say.

The most (many) fronts were in UK - from Dec. 1941 - June 1944

**Klondyke** · 23-05-2015, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by koman

, and the awful weather, far more than anything the Soviet army did to them. Fortunes of war one might say.

Yes, 4th June was very awful weather. But Ike could no longer wait (because of the desaster at Stalingrad)

**koman** · 23-05-2015, 03:03 PM

^
Actually, if one is to look at all the actions of WW11, D-day, June 6th was probably the most (certainly one of the most) audacious military operation in history, in terms of overall risk and the difficulty of execution. It was a huge gamble, and it could quite easily have failed.

The Allies had managed to "bluff" the Germans into thinking the invasion would take place just about anywhere except the Normandy beaches.... which obviously helped, as did overwhelming air power and numerous other factors, such as sabotage and harassment by the "Underground" and special units operating behind the lines. All things that go into the mix of determining who wins and who loses major (and even minor) battles in wartime.

There are always reasons why battles have victors and losers. Stalingrad was a win for the Soviets; but the human cost was incredible by any standards. They had the considerable advantage of fighting on home turf; they had a vast army from which reinforcements could be drawn on constantly. They had the Russian winter to freeze the Germans to a standstill once it set in. The Germans were at the end of a very long and arduous supply line. Reinforcements were limited, as was munitions and everything needed to overcome the defenders of Stalingrad.

Russia has won virtually all of it's great "military" victories by sacrificing vast numbers of people and the use of scorched earth tactics of one kind or another.

When Napoleon invaded, they basically just kept retreating further and further into their huge landmass and let the Frogs keep on coming.....knowing that in time they were going to get stuck at the end of unsustainable supply lines; freeze, starve, and have to stumble all the way back home while being picked off by the Cossacks. Quite a clever tactic as it turned out for the Russians.

Then Hitler went and did the same dumbass thing again....with a few updates and modifications....but with similar results for the invading army.

**Horatio Hornblower** · 23-05-2015, 03:11 PM

What's funny about world war 2 historians is the emphasis is put on how many jews got killed, and never how many Russians got killed.

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

What's funny about world war 2 historians is the emphasis is put on how many jews got killed, and never how many Russians got killed.

That's funny?

**Horatio Hornblower** · 23-05-2015, 03:21 PM

what 25 million to 30 million to 3 million jews.?

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

what 25 million to 30 million to 3 million jews.?

You an 'oven-warmer' are ya HH?

**Norton** · 23-05-2015, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

What's funny about world war 2 historians is the emphasis is put on how many jews got killed, and never how many Russians got killed.

Even "funnier" is the 20 mil Chinese deaths are seldom mentioned. Odd that.

Guess a Chinese death is not as note worthy.

**Boon Mee** · 23-05-2015, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

What's funny about world war 2 historians is the emphasis is put on how many jews got killed, and never how many Russians got killed.

Even "funnier" is the 20 mil Chinese deaths are seldom mentioned. Odd that.

Guess a Chinese death is not as note worthy.

Rape of Nanking. Terrible that.

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