Do you advise your kids to pursue academics or trades?

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Originally Posted by Neverna

^ They are trades, WTF - electricians, mechanics, maintenance fitters, etc.

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Yep, they are trades.

My point on that is, you need to be born with the talent.

You cannot learn how to use your hands out of a textbook. Although effective troubleshooting skills can be enhanced academically. You still need the talent.

Yet, in the US we have promulgated the fairy tale of the four year college degree guaranteeing a good paying job.

How many students do we have graduating college with English, fine arts, political science, etc. degrees, expecting gainful employment based on their uhm... "advanced high school" sheepskin. And many of these saddled with student debt.


If your are fortunate to be born with a tradesman's talent, you will do well. Of course, you will have to get your hands dirty. Just remember to wash up before you go to the dinner table or ...

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

My twins are almost 16 and have no idea what they want to do in life - nor did I at that age. I am going to send them off to college. Once they get a four-year degree (BA), my responsibility ends.

At that point, I've done my part as far as providing options.

If they then decide they want to be woodworkers, construction workers, bartenders, or whatever, it's their call.

But, they'll have an education if they want to pursue careers which require a degree.

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Davis,

I understand the point you make although as a parent your responsibility never really ends.

In your opinion, on the basis of your experiences, how would you advise them to prepare for the future?

My military service and training was the best decision I ever made. My fathers advice, not against it but not for it was, in his words "I hope you like chickenshit". Three year army vet - Korean war.

How would you advise your children concerning a military career? Would you advise them for or against or not offer an opinion?

With or without the sheepskin, enlisted, officer? The possibility of death? The discipline? The hardship on family life? High divorce rate? High suicide rate?, etc.

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As I think you know, I meant my responsibility for preparing them to make good decisions on their own is over - of course your kids will always be your kids.

I was wise enough at 18 to know that college, at that point in my life, was not for me. I went into the Army, then to RVN, and ended a three-year hitch as a Staff Sergeant - at 21. I then went to college, on GI Bill, and paid my own way.

On completing a BA, I then worked for the USG for another 25 years. A great benefit of 28 years of USG service is a very good pension, for me and then my wife when I croak, and great health insurance for my whole family.

Would I recommend the military to my kids? Probably not. Certainly not as enlisted, as I was. I was a tough kid, well suited for the Paras and badly in need of discipline and structure in my life. I hope my kids are better than that.

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Originally Posted by S Landreth

Academics
My daughter received her degree in nursing from Florida State. She had to work in the field for two years before they would consider letting her come back to pursue her masters (a requirement).

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The field of medicine is a "tough" field. Medicine, biology, pharmacology, are difficult subjects. We, the human race, have a great mass of knowledge in these fields and medical professionals must learn it all, and be tested on the knowledge. Not an easy task.

This is a field I would aver that you need to be born with the talent to pursue. Nursing, doctoring, takes a most special kind of person.

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

Would I recommend the military to my kids? Probably not. Certainly not as enlisted, as I was. I was a tough kid, well suited for the Paras and badly in need of discipline and structure in my life. I hope my kids are better than that.

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The military provided me with the tools I needed - education, but more importantly discipline, coupled with insight into my own personal capabilities and limitations.

I would advise a military stint to all. Life experience education not available in books.

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Originally Posted by Neverna

^ They are trades, WTF - electricians, mechanics, maintenance fitters, etc - learned on the job along with some theory at college.

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Originally Posted by bowie

Yep, they are trades.

My point on that is, you need to be born with the talent.

You cannot learn how to use your hands out of a textbook. Although effective troubleshooting skills can be enhanced academically. You still need the talent.

If your are fortunate to be born with a tradesman's talent, you will do well. Of course, you will have to get your hands dirty. Just remember to wash up before you go to the dinner table or ...

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Trades are mostly learned on the job along with some theory at college (in the UK, anyway). You don't need a special talent. You learn the trade, the craft, the skills and the knowledge on the job and at college. There is really no need to be "born with a talent", and I doubt many tradesmen (or women) are.

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Originally Posted by bowie

The field of medicine is a "tough" field. Medicine, biology, pharmacology, are difficult subjects. We, the human race, have a great mass of knowledge in these fields and medical professionals must learn it all, and be tested on the knowledge. Not an easy task.

This is a field I would aver that you need to be born with the talent to pursue. Nursing, doctoring, takes a most special kind of person.

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Doctors need to be good academically to become doctors and they need to be prepared to put in a lot of time, effort and work (in the UK anyway).

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

Would I recommend the military to my kids? Probably not. Certainly not as enlisted, as I was. I was a tough kid, well suited for the Paras and badly in need of discipline and structure in my life. I hope my kids are better than that.

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The military provided me with the tools I needed - education, but more importantly discipline, coupled with insight into my own personal capabilities and limitations.

I would advise a military stint to all. Life experience education not available in books.

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For me, it changed my life - in the most positive of ways. If one of my kids wants that, it's their choice. As an example, my nephew graduated from MIT. Out of the blue, he went in the Army and is now a Captain in the Rangers. People decide which road to follow at different times in their lives - for my kids, all I can do is to try to provide the best guidance I can as they work their way through life.

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

all I can do is to try to provide the best guidance I can as they work their way through life.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Davis Knowlton again.

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Originally Posted by Neverna

There is really no need to be "born with a talent", and I doubt many tradesmen (or women) are.

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I have to disagree with that statement.

If you aren't "handy" i.e. able to work with your hands which is something you are born with, same as your born with a voice to sing or a silver tongue to sell, you will be a miserable failure should you aspire to be a tradesman.

You'll also be a frequent customer at the local emergency room. :)

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Originally Posted by bowie

You'll also be a frequent customer at the local emergency room.

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ask loytoy :)

not everyone can become a good troubleshooter in plant maintenance - no matter how much training you give them

some people just don't think in the correct way to fault find

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Originally Posted by baldrick

no matter how much training you give them

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Bingo on that statement. We had a radioman who did so much damage working on equipment he was banned to our "Site Gardener" position. Military at a remote satellite site - couldn't fire him, couldn't let him work on equipment, we did need someone to cut the grass.

Not many people seem to be doing it the Thai way.

Send them out to work at 13 yrs old so they can send you money. )

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Originally Posted by Luigi

Not many people seem to be doing it the Thai way.

Send them out to work at 13 yrs old so they can send you money. )

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..another option, my fine Italian friend, might be getting into the well respected industry of ensnaring Farang. Usually, low overhead with bountiful benefits.

:)

^^ we used to

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2015/05/160.jpg

Child labor in factories - A new workforce during the Industrial Revolution

When the industrial revolution first came to Britain and the U.S., there was a high demand for labor. Families quickly migrated from the rural farm areas to the newly industrialized cities to find work. Once they got there, things did not look as bright as they did. To survive in even the lowest level of poverty, families had to have every able member of the family go to work. This led to the high rise in child labor in factories. Children were not treated well, overworked, and underpaid for a long time before anyone tried to change things for them.

Wages and Hours:
Children as young as six years old during the industrial revolution worked hard hours for little or no pay. Children sometimes worked up to 19 hours a day, with a one-hour total break. This was a little bit on the extreme, but it was not common for children who worked in factories to work 12-14 hours with the same minimal breaks. Not only were these children subject to long hours, but also, they were in horrible conditions. Large, heavy, and dangerous equipment was very common for children to be using or working near. Many accidents occurred injuring or killing children on the job. Not until the Factory Act of 1833 did things improve. Children were paid only a fraction of what an adult would get, and sometimes factory owners would get away with paying them nothing. Orphans were the ones subject to this slave-like labor. The factory owners justified their absence of payroll by saying that they gave the orphans food, shelter, and clothing, all of which were far below par. The children who did get paid were paid very little. One boy explained this payment system:

"They [boys of eight years] used to get 3d [d is the abbreviation for pence] or 4d a day. Now a man's wages is divided into eight eighths; at eleven, two eighths; at thirteen, three eighths; at fifteen, four eighths; at twenty, a man's wagesÐ About 15s [shillings]."

Treatment:
The treatment of children in factories was often cruel and unusual, and the children's safety was generally neglected. The youngest children, who were not old enough to work the machines, were commonly sent to be assistants to textile workers. The people who the children served would beat them, verbally abuse them, and take no consideration for their safety. Both boys and girls who worked in factories were subject to beatings and other harsh forms of pain infliction. One common punishment for being late or not working up to quota would be to be "weighted." An overseer would tie a heavy weight to worker's neck, and have them walk up and down the factory aisles so the other children could see them and "take example." This could last up to an hour. Weighting could lead to serious injuries in the back and/or neck. Punishments such as this would often be dispensed under stringent rules. Boys were sometimes dragged naked from their beds and sent to the factories only holding their clothes, to be put on there. This was to make sure the boys would not be late, even by a few minutes.
Child labor: Movements to Regulate
There were people in this time period that strongly advocated the use or the abolishment of child labor, or at least the improvement of conditions. Factory owners loved child labor, and they supported their reasoning with ideas that it was good for everything from the economy to the building of the children's characters. Parents of the children who worked were almost forced to at least approve of it because they needed the income. There were, however, some important figures that fought for the regulation, improvement, and/or abolishment of child labor. The first step to improving conditions was in 1833 with the Factory Act passed by Parliament. This limited the amount of hours children of certain ages could work. Specifically, children 9 to 13 years of age were only allowed to work 8 hours a day. Those 14 to 18 years of age could not work more than 12 hours a day. Children under 9 were not allowed to work at all. Also, the children were to attend school for no less than two hours during the day. Perhaps the most important part of this act was the part that said the government would appoint officials to make sure the act was carried out and complied with. Later, in the early 20th century, activists went even further to protect children's rights in labor. Among these figures was Jane Addams, founder of the Hull House. Activists in the U.S. made the government set up the Children's Bureau in 1912. This made it the U.S. government's responsibility to monitor child labor.

In the time of the Industrial Revolution, the children of the families who moved to the crowded cities had their work situation go from bad to worse. In rural areas, children would have worked long hours with hard work for their families farms, but in the cities, the children worked longer hours with harder work for large companies. Harsher treatment, fewer rewards and more sickness and injury came from poorly regulated child labor. Child labor today is still apart of many economies. 59,600 of the workers in the U.S. are under 14 and many other countries have huge child labor troubles. Child labor came from the Industrial Revolution and is still around today.

Jeff your so Passe,its not farang now,its Asian...

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Originally Posted by thaimeme

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Originally Posted by Luigi

Not many people seem to be doing it the Thai way.

Send them out to work at 13 yrs old so they can send you money. )

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..another option, my fine Italian friend, might be getting into the well respected industry of ensnaring Farang. Usually, low overhead with bountiful benefits.

:)

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Neverna

There is really no need to be "born with a talent", and I doubt many tradesmen (or women) are.

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I have to disagree with that statement.

If you aren't "handy" i.e. able to work with your hands which is something you are born with, same as your born with a voice to sing or a silver tongue to sell, you will be a miserable failure should you aspire to be a tradesman.

You'll also be a frequent customer at the local emergency room. :)

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I was speaking from a UK perspective. Clearly things are much different in the USA. Or perhaps "born with a talent" means something different across the pond. Carry on.

I would advise any kid that can, or will, to get an education. Even if they do not yet know what their future career will be- heck, plenty of those that think they 'know' end up pursuing different careers anyway. The value of education remains the same regardless- even at the most venal level it opens up more options and possibilities. And the value of undertaking some training in thinking for oneself is inestimable.

[QUOTE=bowie;3009997]Born in the 50's, raised in the 60's and 70's. No real guidance provided to myself. The going concensus then was you go to college and become successful or you became a working man...
QUOTE]

You seem to have answered your own question. There's never a day goes by that i don't wish i had served and gotten some pension benes...It'll serve you in later life, you could go to college on the GI bill, but i personally think that college is both over-rated and over-valued.

I could never figure it out why so many ex US Navy guys are so incredibly bitter, bitchy and cantankerous. The ones who just did the bare four years ended up waiting on tables in Manhattan just like anyone else and man are they pissed and let everyone know it...I'm sure there are quite a lot of benefits after four years service but maybe you won't see that till later life???

A good panel beater that can do jig straightening and panel replacement is worth his weight in silver, not enough of them in the trade and skills aren't being replaced.

Think of the millions of cars in the world, as long as there are women drivers, there will always be accidents.
You'll never be out of work, unless you want to be ;)

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Originally Posted by Neverna

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Neverna

There is really no need to be "born with a talent", and I doubt many tradesmen (or women) are.

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I have to disagree with that statement.

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I was speaking from a UK perspective.

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UK tradesmen have one of the highest reputations in the world, they are simply more dynamic in their approach to the job.

Most people get into trades through circumstance, but if you don't have an eye for the job you won't get beyond the first year.

Speaking from a UK perspective that is.

Everyone appears to be suggesting their offspring become wage slaves.
A piece of paper from a university will serve you up to the corporate world where you will help others achieve their goals.
A trade will have you being a manual labourer until you are too old to compete with the younger and fitter guys. You will usually be working in a small company or for yourself trading a finite amount of hours for cash.

Kids should be taught to work for profits not wages - only that will allow them to enjoy the fruits of success.
They should start a business that they can manage easily. Whether a cafe or an Internet start up idea it does not matter. They will have begun the journey and be leveraging their income from the efforts of others.
This is reality, yes this is capitalism.

They should work on building a passive income throughout their live that will allow a wealthy retirement, not a govt based handout. Passive income eg rented property, preferably commercial.

The above will have them working on their own plans not someone else's.

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton

My twins are almost 16 and have no idea what they want to do in life - nor did I at that age. I am going to send them off to college. Once they get a four-year degree (BA), my responsibility ends.

At that point, I've done my part as far as providing options.

If they then decide they want to be woodworkers, construction workers, bartenders, or whatever, it's their call.

But, they'll have an education if they want to pursue careers which require a degree.

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Davis,

I understand the point you make although as a parent your responsibility never really ends.

In your opinion, on the basis of your experiences, how would you advise them to prepare for the future?

My military service and training was the best decision I ever made. My fathers advice, not against it but not for it was, in his words "I hope you like chickenshit". Three year army vet - Korean war.

How would you advise your children concerning a military career? Would you advise them for or against or not offer an opinion?

With or without the sheepskin, enlisted, officer? The possibility of death? The discipline? The hardship on family life? High divorce rate? High suicide rate?, etc.

---

As I think you know, I meant my responsibility for preparing them to make good decisions on their own is over - of course your kids will always be your kids.

I was wise enough at 18 to know that college, at that point in my life, was not for me. I went into the Army, then to RVN, and ended a three-year hitch as a Staff Sergeant - at 21. I then went to college, on GI Bill, and paid my own way.

On completing a BA, I then worked for the USG for another 25 years. A great benefit of 28 years of USG service is a very good pension, for me and then my wife when I croak, and great health insurance for my whole family.

Would I recommend the military to my kids? Probably not. Certainly not as enlisted, as I was. I was a tough kid, well suited for the Paras and badly in need of discipline and structure in my life. I hope my kids are better than that.

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I retired from the Navy in 2007 after 28 years of active duty as a supply type. Around here in TD better known as a spud peeling REMFer ... :) ... All joking aside I encouraged my sons to sign up but they're more influenced by their mother. At this point in my life I just can't see myself encouraging kids to join the Marines or Army unless it was in the aviation support side of both. But the Air Force and Navy I would encourage kids to consider. The Navy has a lot of trade related skills applicable to the outside. If the intent is joining as a career the pensions for enlisted are pretty decent still if you get high enough. I retired as an enlisted but my pension is as much as your average 0-5 that retires at 20.

Supply types have an abundance of job opportunities in logistics after a 20+ year career in both the private and public sectors. Financially better off in the private sector but some of us are happy to stay on the government tit working towards a second pension.

Engineers have quite a lot of opportunity as well after military life. With maybe the exception of civil engineers.

Not much need for boatswains mates and ordnancemen.

The current Post 9/11 GI Bill is just a flat outstanding program and combined with the Yellow Ribbon Program offered by many schools to vets nobody should have any debt after 4 years of school.

Whether it be a military or federal career neither pays quite as well pension wise as they did when I retired from the Navy or Davis did from the USG.

Would add this ... I have never filed but have learned that many military retirees are also applying for and getting substantial amounts, tax free, for things like sleep apnea, hearing loss, diabetes, arthritis, depression, etc. Its all tax free but once you're rated at 50 % or higher it's a totally separate check. So a lot of those guys who never got past E-7 are doing pretty darn well with their retired military and disability checks. I'm talking several thousand dollars a month.

Bottom line is even 4 years in the military can give you a trade and then a sweetheart GI Bill program path to a degree or more trade training.

Was hanging out with a 39 yr old American lad years ago.

Raised with his sisters by his single mother in a ghetto, as good as the only white kid there.

Enlisted with the Navy at 17 as no other hopes.

During the next 20 yrs he earned a degree in French Lit, bought two houses, worked as an encryptor, and took 20 yr retirement at age 37.

Was just taking it easy in South-East Asia as a man in his 30's that never needed to work again (if he's somewhat careful) because of it.

Whenever my lad used to moan at school about the point of studying I used to just email him this:

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2015/05/180.jpg

It's sad to hear of father's 'emailing' their sons in school as they are not there with them as they're growing up and being educated.

Can't imagine doing that, to be honest.

Ahh… yes… United States Military Service.

A very good career path. Instills, education, discipline, strength, ability and an excellent “can-do” attitude. And, of course, a reasonable pension at an early age. You will exit the military at mid-life with not only a pension but with a valuable skill set allowing you to start a second career. This virtually guarantees you a lucrative retirement.

The downside is that the military, by virtue of its mission, can cost you your life, your physical health and/or possibly your mental health. Also, the military is a 24/7 job. You are always at work, or on call. However, you do get 30 vacation days a year. You also get a paycheck, and it’s a job that pays more if you are married. You also have some reasonable discounts at the PX or commissary. And, of course, military discounts abound at US stores.

You do need a sound mind and body to join, and, unfortunately the MAJORITY of America’s youth are such poor examples of human beings that they are ineligible to join. Sad what we’ve become.



Recruits' Ineligibility Tests the Military

More Than Two-Thirds of American Youth Wouldn't Qualify for Service, Pentagon Says

By Miriam Jordan The Wall Street Journal

June 27, 2014 6:59 p.m. ET

More than two-thirds of America's youth would fail to qualify for military service because of physical, behavioral or educational shortcomings, posing challenges to building the next generation of soldiers even as the U.S. draws down troops from conflict zones.

Recruits' Ineligibility Tests the Military - WSJ



71% of U.S. Youth Don't Qualify for Military Service, Pentagon Says

Pentagon: 7 in 10 Youths Would Fail to Qualify for Military Service

Nolan Feeney @NolanFeeney

"The quality of people willing to serve has been declining rapidly," the U.S. Army Recruiting Command's commanding general says

Approximately 71% of the 34 million 17-to-24-year-olds in the U.S. would not qualify for military service because of reasons related to health, physical appearance and educational background, according to the Pentagon.

The ineligible typically includes those who are obese, those who lack a high school diploma or a GED, convicted felons, those taking prescription drugs for ADHD and those with certain tattoos and ear gauges, the Wall Street Journal reports, though some requirements can be waived.

Only 1% of young people are both “eligible and inclined to have conversation with” the military about possible service, according to the Defense Department.
“The quality of people willing to serve has been declining rapidly,” Major General Allen Batschelet, the U.S. Army Recruiting Command’s commanding general, told the WSJ.

Approximately 180,000 men and women volunteer for and enter active-duty forces each year, though U.S. military activity in recent years has led to some looser standards for recruitment. Only 79% of those enlisted had a high school diploma in 2007, while that figure was 90% in 2001. During the Iraq war, the military was also less strict about soldiers’ body fat.

“We have not adopted a zero-defect mentality,” said Defense Department spokesman Nathan Christensen, who noted that the military’s recruiting targets in recent years have been met. “We evaluate each applicant from a whole-person perspective.”

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Originally Posted by Iceman123

Everyone appears to be suggesting their offspring become wage slaves.
A piece of paper from a university will serve you up to the corporate world where you will help others achieve their goals.
A trade will have you being a manual labourer until you are too old to compete with the younger and fitter guys. You will usually be working in a small company or for yourself trading a finite amount of hours for cash.

Kids should be taught to work for profits not wages - only that will allow them to enjoy the fruits of success.
They should start a business that they can manage easily. Whether a cafe or an Internet start up idea it does not matter. They will have begun the journey and be leveraging their income from the efforts of others.
This is reality, yes this is capitalism.

They should work on building a passive income throughout their live that will allow a wealthy retirement, not a govt based handout. Passive income eg rented property, preferably commercial.

The above will have them working on their own plans not someone else's.

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pretty much sums up my take on life. done all those things plus some. still think share dealing the best idea ive ever had. and best, easiest money earner.

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Originally Posted by Luigi

It's sad to hear of father's 'emailing' their sons in school as they are not there with them as they're growing up and being educated.

Can't imagine doing that, to be honest.

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where do u conclude he's not available to/for the son. i would do exactly the same thing. read bill gates lectures. much the same in other words.

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Originally Posted by Neo

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Originally Posted by Neverna

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Originally Posted by bowie

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Originally Posted by Neverna

There is really no need to be "born with a talent", and I doubt many tradesmen (or women) are.

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I have to disagree with that statement.

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I was speaking from a UK perspective.

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UK tradesmen have one of the highest reputations in the world, they are simply more dynamic in their approach to the job.

Most people get into trades through circumstance, but if you don't have an eye for the job you won't get beyond the first year.

Speaking from a UK perspective that is.

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Most people get into trades because when they left school they applied for a job as an apprentice and subsequently got the job. Most people stay in those jobs to see out their apprenticeships. Some will quite part way through and some will change direction after their apprenticeship finishes but I suspect the latter is more to do with the job market at the time the new tradesman finishes his/her apprenticeship and whether or not his/her employer decides to employ him/her as a tradesman.

Speaking from a UK perspective that is. :wink:

^Lack of options would be my guess Never-na....In today's market you work where and when you find it if you have "0" skills to begin with.

Leaving a job today is pretty much accepted practice...flipping burgers is tedious and now that they qualify for welfare why work?:rolleyes:

If you have girls, ladies finishing schools, UK, know a few, not one married badly.
Don't knew a good degree if your husband is filthy rich to start.

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

If you have girls, ladies finishing schools,

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In the USA its called getting a degree in "MRS."

Only ever advise my son,that if he wants to find a good job he has to work hard for himself now, seems to be working well.

Only hope it continues.

He understands that if he works well, he can afford the things he wants.

A job....

Jeff its called employment, career, the work you do to support family,yourself.

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Originally Posted by ltnt

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Originally Posted by jamescollister

If you have girls, ladies finishing schools,

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In the USA its called getting a degree in "MRS."

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What' MRS, know they have similar schools in France, but was unaware the USA had any schools that taught ladies to ladies.
Paris Hilton missed out I guess.

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Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

Jeff its called employment, career, the work you do to support family,yourself.

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Jeff is a fuckwit. I'm guessing it's been decades since Jeff has known what employment is in a long term measure.