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  1. #1
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    Religion ..a conspiracy?

    I like to read ancient history..

    I have never come across any specific reference to JC. Lots of surviving documents BC/AD as to ancient empires,Romans etc ....yet nothing as to birth/trial/execution of JC...
    Wonder ??(maybe I missed something) but if actual writings survived would/could they have been destroyed or suppressed by those who's interest it would not serve..ie they would be out of a lucrative do nothing job and perhaps lose their lives???

    Also wonder if the non fanatical church leaders really believe ( one must assume that they are intelligent, thinking people) or do they also just go with the flow?

    Not to say there are definitely many religious types that are good people actually giving a shit about their fellow man..

  2. #2
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    Records that would have survived from his lifetime where written by Romans.
    They'd hardly be interested in writing about a man who was executed as a criminal for causing some trouble in the temple of their subjugated territory.
    Other records of the time which have survived would be mostly business related.
    It was only after his death and the subsequent work and writings of his disciples that he gained any following.


    JC was just some guy, y'know...

  3. #3
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    Maybe wrong mate but I think the bible was originally written in Greek.

    Anyways what prompted my rant was a documentary on Al Jazeera about the slums in Philippines..in a mostly Catholic country, the only assistance was coming from other christian societies...
    Catholic church ....a billion dollar industry yet many of it's followers live in poverty....where was the Catholic church and it's billions when the typhoon struck in the Philippines one wonders?

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    just a guy is right, he craped behind the shrubbery like they all did,

    his death was just a good career move,

    unfortunately some believe the hype.

  5. #5
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    Although i am a non believer, I also think there would be a requirement for some kind of moral compass if religion was banned.

    My ire is saved mainly for church leaders who carry far too much influence. Why would you need a hiearchy and leadership in a fair and equal society? Too many examples of abuse of power in the leadership.
    Why do we need Bishops given the automatic right to a seat in the house of Lords (Itself and anachronism)? It's not like their divine guidance has improved the moral stock of politicians is it.

    Perhaps if we did a proper job of caring for our own families and not rely so much on the pastoral care offered by the clergy, they could be dispensed with too.

    The basic principles of religious law are alraedy enshrined in criminal and civil law so that should be the basis for future societies to be guided by.

    Would society fall apart if religion was binned? I think not. Who knows, without religious interference we might be obliged to make a fist of it ourselves.
    Heart of Gold and a Knob of butter.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    JC was just some guy, y'know...
    Or was he?

    Most of the evidence seems to indicate a fictionalised character so arranged as to be the symbolic head of an official Roman church which would help Emperor Constantine quell Jewish insurgents within the Roman Empire of the time. You'll notice the emphasis on 'peace' within the religious doctrines.

    Plenty of authoritative evidence provided by the likes of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Dr Richard Carrier et al.
    Check out Matt Dillihunty's 'The Atheist Experience' videos on YouTube for a bit of Xtian-baiting fun.

  7. #7
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    Religions in general is a "Go with the Flow" teaching.

    I have never been a "Go with the Flow" type of person.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamBlake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    JC was just some guy, y'know...
    Or was he?

    Most of the evidence seems to indicate a fictionalised character so arranged as to be the symbolic head of an official Roman church which would help Emperor Constantine quell Jewish insurgents within the Roman Empire of the time. You'll notice the emphasis on 'peace' within the religious doctrines.

    Plenty of authoritative evidence provided by the likes of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Dr Richard Carrier et al.
    Check out Matt Dillihunty's 'The Atheist Experience' videos on YouTube for a bit of Xtian-baiting fun.

    As conspiracy theories go, that's pretty lousy
    Christianity was active and growing and well persecuted by the Roman for their refusal to serve for 300 years before Constantine came along.

  9. #9
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Interesting read this.

    "From the internationally bestselling author of No god but God comes a fascinating, provocative, and meticulously researched biography that challenges long-held assumptions about the man we know as Jesus of Nazareth.

    Two thousand years ago, an itinerant Jewish preacher and miracle worker walked across the Galilee, gathering followers to establish what he called the “Kingdom of God.” The revolutionary movement he launched was so threatening to the established order that he was captured, tortured, and executed as a state criminal.

    Within decades after his shameful death, his followers would call him God.

    Sifting through centuries of mythmaking, Reza Aslan sheds new light on one of history’s most influential and enigmatic characters by examining Jesus through the lens of the tumultuous era in which he lived: first-century Palestine, an age awash in apocalyptic fervor. Scores of Jewish prophets, preachers, and would-be messiahs wandered through the Holy Land, bearing messages from God. This was the age of zealotry—a fervent nationalism that made resistance to the Roman occupation a sacred duty incumbent on all Jews. And few figures better exemplified this principle than the charismatic Galilean who defied both the imperial authorities and their allies in the Jewish religious hierarchy.

    Balancing the Jesus of the Gospels against the historical sources, Aslan describes a man full of conviction and passion, yet rife with contradiction; a man of peace who exhorted his followers to arm themselves with swords; an exorcist and faith healer who urged his disciples to keep his identity a secret; and ultimately the seditious “King of the Jews” whose promise of liberation from Rome went unfulfilled in his brief lifetime. Aslan explores the reasons why the early Christian church preferred to promulgate an image of Jesus as a peaceful spiritual teacher rather than a politically conscious revolutionary. And he grapples with the riddle of how Jesus understood himself, the mystery that is at the heart of all subsequent claims about his divinity.

    Zealot yields a fresh perspective on one of the greatest stories ever told even as it affirms the radical and transformative nature of Jesus of Nazareth’s life and mission. The result is a thought-provoking, elegantly written biography with the pulse of a fast-paced novel: a singularly brilliant portrait of a man, a time, and the birth of a religion."

    Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth: Reza Aslan: 9781400069224: Amazon.com: Books

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas View Post
    Maybe wrong mate but I think the bible was originally written in Greek.

    Anyways what prompted my rant was a documentary on Al Jazeera about the slums in Philippines..in a mostly Catholic country, the only assistance was coming from other christian societies...
    Catholic church ....a billion dollar industry yet many of it's followers live in poverty....where was the Catholic church and it's billions when the typhoon struck in the Philippines one wonders?
    You didn't know what a corrupt, paedophile-infested business that the Catholic Church is?

    Do you live in a fucking cave or something?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Interesting read this.

    "From the internationally bestselling author of No god but God comes a fascinating, provocative, and meticulously researched biography that challenges long-held assumptions about the man we know as Jesus of Nazareth.

    Two thousand years ago, an itinerant Jewish preacher and miracle worker walked across the Galilee, gathering followers to establish what he called the “Kingdom of God.” The revolutionary movement he launched was so threatening to the established order that he was captured, tortured, and executed as a state criminal.

    Within decades after his shameful death, his followers would call him God.

    Sifting through centuries of mythmaking, Reza Aslan sheds new light on one of history’s most influential and enigmatic characters by examining Jesus through the lens of the tumultuous era in which he lived: first-century Palestine, an age awash in apocalyptic fervor. Scores of Jewish prophets, preachers, and would-be messiahs wandered through the Holy Land, bearing messages from God. This was the age of zealotry—a fervent nationalism that made resistance to the Roman occupation a sacred duty incumbent on all Jews. And few figures better exemplified this principle than the charismatic Galilean who defied both the imperial authorities and their allies in the Jewish religious hierarchy.

    Balancing the Jesus of the Gospels against the historical sources, Aslan describes a man full of conviction and passion, yet rife with contradiction; a man of peace who exhorted his followers to arm themselves with swords; an exorcist and faith healer who urged his disciples to keep his identity a secret; and ultimately the seditious “King of the Jews” whose promise of liberation from Rome went unfulfilled in his brief lifetime. Aslan explores the reasons why the early Christian church preferred to promulgate an image of Jesus as a peaceful spiritual teacher rather than a politically conscious revolutionary. And he grapples with the riddle of how Jesus understood himself, the mystery that is at the heart of all subsequent claims about his divinity.

    Zealot yields a fresh perspective on one of the greatest stories ever told even as it affirms the radical and transformative nature of Jesus of Nazareth’s life and mission. The result is a thought-provoking, elegantly written biography with the pulse of a fast-paced novel: a singularly brilliant portrait of a man, a time, and the birth of a religion."

    Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth: Reza Aslan: 9781400069224: Amazon.com: Books


    As he has no historical sources to go on, it sounds like complete fiction.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton
    Scores of Jewish prophets, preachers, and would-be messiahs wandered through the Holy Land, bearing messages from God. This was the age of zealotry—a fervent nationalism that made resistance to the Roman occupation a sacred duty incumbent on all Jews. And few figures better exemplified this principle than the charismatic Galilean who defied both the imperial authorities and their allies in the Jewish religious hierarchy.
    It would be easy to compare this to modern day muslim radicals and their fight against the infidel.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    As conspiracy theories go, that's pretty lousy Christianity was active and growing and well persecuted by the Roman for their refusal to serve for 300 years before Constantine came along.
    Yes. But that doesn't prove his existence as an historical figure, only the existence of members of a faith-based group. As you know, the name Jesus Christ translates as 'Saviour Messiah', a fairly generic title.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamBlake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    As conspiracy theories go, that's pretty lousy Christianity was active and growing and well persecuted by the Roman for their refusal to serve for 300 years before Constantine came along.
    Yes. But that doesn't prove his existence as an historical figure, only the existence of members of a faith-based group. As you know, the name Jesus Christ translates as 'Saviour Messiah', a fairly generic title.

    Several historians of the era wrote about him independently when narrating the Roman occupation of the Levant.
    Historical scholars, (not biblical) generally accept that:
    There was a teacher/sage/preacher called Yeshua (Jesus is the latin form) a common name at the time
    He was probably baptized by John the Baptist
    On passover he caused some ruckus at the temple
    He got nailed to a stick for his trouble as was commonly done with troublemakers at the time.

    Everything else about his life is hearsay or myth.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    Everything else about his life is hearsay or myth
    Except that bit Norton threw in the Mix. Very apposite I think and clearly quite credible.

  16. #16
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    As he has no historical sources to go on, it sounds like complete fiction.
    There is a fair amount of Roman and Jewish historical material referencing JC. He did exsist. No doubt. Actually John the Baptist was mentioned more than JC.

    Guess if anyone interested ya gotta read this and several other books about JC and his times.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    As he has no historical sources to go on, it sounds like complete fiction.
    There is a fair amount of Roman and Jewish historical material referencing JC. He did exsist. No doubt. Actually John the Baptist was mentioned more than JC.

    Guess if anyone interested ya gotta read this and several other books about JC and his times.
    Got any links?

    As far as I'm aware the only contemporary writers to mention him that do not draw on the gospels are Tacitus and a Jewish historian.
    As their writings have been translated in ancient times even those brief references are considered suspect.

    There are none because at the time he was just one of hundreds or thousands of preachers and doomsayers.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99 View Post
    Records that would have survived from his lifetime where written by Romans.
    They'd hardly be interested in writing about a man who was executed as a criminal for causing some trouble in the temple of their subjugated territory.
    Other records of the time which have survived would be mostly business related.
    It was only after his death and the subsequent work and writings of his disciples that he gained any following.


    JC was just some guy, y'know...
    As he journeyed to [what is now] the lower Himalayan region.
    Staying for a number of years.....his last resting place as well.

    You won't find much regarding the "missing Jesus years", as any truths would completely break down the hypnotic propaganda that has been sent forth.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme
    As he journeyed to [what is now] the lower Himalayan region. Staying for a number of years.....his last resting place as well. You won't find much regarding the "missing Jesus years", as any truths would completely break down the hypnotic propaganda that has been sent forth.
    Can you post anything else apart from scrabbledegook?

  20. #20
    How Dare You!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton
    Zealot yields a fresh perspective on one of the greatest stories ever told
    Not as good as the original Star Wars trilogy though!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme
    As he journeyed to [what is now] the lower Himalayan region. Staying for a number of years.....his last resting place as well.
    He also spent some time in Japan. Not many people know that.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme
    As he journeyed to [what is now] the lower Himalayan region. Staying for a number of years.....his last resting place as well.
    He also spent some time in Japan. Not many people know that.
    As michael caine would of said, not many people know that.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thaimeme
    As he journeyed to [what is now] the lower Himalayan region. Staying for a number of years.....his last resting place as well.
    He also spent some time in Japan. Not many people know that.
    He also spent some time in My life, Jesus was alive and I used to pray to him to give Me the holy spirit, so that I would have his holy spirit working in Me, giving Me the strength to lead the Churches flock.
    And I preached the word of god to them, and they believed Me.
    I was a Bible puncher.
    But now I get no help from Jesus, because I left his belief system, and I am better off for it.

  24. #24
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    What branch of Christianity did you follow?

  25. #25
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    Maybe Catholic?

    I think only the Dans have the mystical trinity of the father son and holy spirit.

    I think the Billies keep things sensible with just God and Jesus.

    I am an old tin can.

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