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  1. #1
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    So is it Turkey that is gun shy or is it NATO?

    The Kurdish town of Kobane in western Syria is under siege by the Islamic State. A U.S.-led coalition has hit at the jihadists sieging Kobane—with 13 strikes on Wednesday and Thursday—but bombs alone may not suffice. It is the Turkish military, whose tanks are currently sitting on the Syrian border, that may be in the best position to save stave off a mass slaughter. But the Turks refuse to join the fight, even though the Turkish Parliament voted on Oct. 2 to deploy the Turkish army to fight in Iraq and Syria, and to allow foreign troops on Turkish soil. A week after the vote, Turkey has not participated in any U.S.-led operations against the Islamic State.
    Turkey’s stock as a Western ally is plummeting. Ankara stubbornly resists joining the coalition unless it broadens its fight to topple Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. Turkey’s 200 or more F-16 fighter jets sit idle as the Islamic State makes alarming gains across Syria and Iraq. This stands in sharp contrast to other Muslim world allies – including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and even Jordan – that have taken part in the aerial campaign against the Islamic State.
    Turkey’s absence is conspicuous. It’s the only NATO ally among these Muslim world partners. To be clear, the fight against the Islamic State is not a NATO mission, but it serves as a reminder of how little Erdogan’s regime has done to help preserve order in the Middle East.
    In many ways, Turkey has made the fight against the Islamic State more difficult. Apart from permitting some unarmed American drones to fly out of its territory, Ankara has refused to allow the West to operate from Turkish airbases. This has forced strike aircraft to fly their sorties from the Al Udeid airbase in Qatar, Shaheed Mwaffaq in Jordan or Al Dhafra in the UAE. As for the Incirlik air base that NATO operates in Eastern Turkey, Ankara has made it clear that for the time being, it is currently off limits for armed operations.
    But this should come as no surprise. Incirlik has long been off limits. Ankara refused to allow the United States to utilize the air base for kinetic operations in the 2003 Iraq war and its aftermath. Instead, the base has been used for logistics, support and training. Turkey owns the facility, but technically, according to Article 5 of the NATO charter, it cannot restrict the NATO activities on the base in an approved operation. Still, it can restrict U.S. personnel and equipment. And it has consistently done so, to the frustration of American military planners.
    Admittedly, one could argue that the Turks were right to hold off on joining America’s ill-fated war in Iraq. But that would be ignoring Turkey’s role in other international conflicts. Take the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan since 2001, where Turkey limited its role to logistics and training and refused to take part in combat. Similarly, Turkey deployed nearly 400 personnel to NATO forces in Kosovo, as well as other personnel to other international operations in the Balkans, but with responsibilities limited to training, observation and support.

    Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO? - Jonathan Schanzer - POLITICO Magazine

    Turkey: NATO Has Plan to Defend the Country - ABC News
    Last edited by bsnub; 14-10-2014 at 06:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    Lets all condemn a country for not wanting to get involved and participate in America's fuk ups or maybe not......

  3. #3
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    It doesn't surprise me in the least that Turkey is taking the opportunity to settle a few scores with the Kurds.

    What does surprise me is that anyone thinks this is NATO's business.

    If Turkey doesn't feel threatened by what's going on in Syria and Iraq, then no other NATO member should be, that's for sure.

    When ISIS attacks Turkey, THEN it's NATO's business.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    Lets all condemn a country for not wanting to get involved and participate in America's fuk ups or maybe not......
    Indeed...
    Not loyal to the imperialist masters, are they?


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    As long as the Australians are not sucked into another Gallipoli campaign against Turkey.
    100 years later.
    Let the new Imperialists get on with it alone, as they try to rule the old Ottoman Empire territories .
    God bless America.

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    Lets see...ISIS is not worth noting I take it? Nice one sponge boys. I can hear you now after the bombs go off in London, Sydney, Berlin and Paris...not our war they said. Let the Yanks take care of it...stupid f@$%&*s.

  7. #7
    Custom user Neverna's Avatar
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    ^ The Yanks shouldn't take care of it. The Syrians and the Iraqis should take care of it. They can't, you say? Oh, why not? Is it because Iraq's army was dismantled by the USA? Is it because Syria is fighting rebels supported, funded and armed by the USA and a few of its allies? The Yanks should stay out of it. They have caused enough problems in the region and their meddling has helped create the power vacuum that has allowed IS to grow into what it is now.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverna View Post
    ^ The Yanks shouldn't take care of it. The Syrians and the Iraqis should take care of it. They can't, you say? Oh, why not? Is it because Iraq's army was dismantled by the USA? Is it because Syria is fighting rebels supported, funded and armed by the USA and a few of its allies? The Yanks should stay out of it. They have caused enough problems in the region and their meddling has helped create the power vacuum that has allowed IS to grow into what it is now.
    Comes around, yet they can't see it.

    Blowback is a way of life for the American establishment.
    Been repeating itself for decades.

  9. #9
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    ^So now this is all America's fault? Great thinking guys. You and Heraldo must be great friends. Its always somebody else's war till its on your doorstep, right?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt View Post
    ^So now this is all America's fault? Great thinking guys. You and Heraldo must be great friends. Its always somebody else's war till its on your doorstep, right?
    Errrm maybe because America starts all wars thus bringing them to our doorsteps, just think if the dumbfuks had never invaded Iraq the second time around how much more peaceful our lives would be today, but no profit in peace is there....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt View Post
    ^So now this is all America's fault? Great thinking guys. You and Heraldo must be great friends. Its always somebody else's war till its on your doorstep, right?
    Errrm maybe because America starts all wars thus bringing them to our doorsteps, just think if the dumbfuks had never invaded Iraq the second time around how much more peaceful our lives would be today, but no profit in peace is there....
    Some can't see this.
    Therefore can't accept it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt View Post
    ^So now this is all America's fault? Great thinking guys. You and Heraldo must be great friends. Its always somebody else's war till its on your doorstep, right?
    Yes it is.

    When Bush dismantled Saddam's military and replaced all the Sunni with Shi'a, he created a genocidal atmosphere that has led us right to where we are now with the "Sunni" ISIS/ISIL/IS. It essentially started out as a Sunni rebellion in a Shi'a Iraq.

    It's abso-fucking-lutely America (well Bush and the Neocons') fault, although you can add Blair to the list of wankers as well.

  13. #13
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    Turks only want one thing, the destruction of the Kurds.
    They wanted to overthrow the Syrian President for protecting the Northern Kurds.
    Turkey armed through the U.S.A. s help to help train and arm the " Free Syrian Army "
    That is now ISIS

  14. #14
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    Americas the cause of all wars? Amazing statement. I figure you're living in bumfuck Issan and totally disconnected from reality.

    Thaimeme is simply mimicking his mentors no doubt. Trotski and Lenin.

    George Bush is the creator of the Islamic State and without exception the cause of all Middle East wars? I suppose if one took out of the equation the base facts that Al Quada, ISIS and other associated mongrel terrorist organizations are pretty significant reasons for there being any warfare whatsoever in the Middle East.

    Are you guys members of the Flat Earth Society by any chance? Remember guys this is the real world not your Luney Tunes version. these extremist organizations want to end your life. Think about it if you can. The current version willfully cuts off oppositions heads and airs them internationally as some form of justified retaliation for fighting against them.

    Remember, you could be next.

  15. #15
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
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    ltnt, you can whine all you want but the facts aren't on your side. ISIS is Bush's mess; they gained power because he toppled Saddam, gained recruits when the idiotic invasion pissed everyone off, and gained hardware from US stockpiles.

    Reality makes Republicans look like dipshiats at best, but that doesn't mean you can change it so it doesn't hurt your feelings.

    George W Bush destabilized a relatively stable and largely secular dictatorship in a region known for religious and political instability without considering the ramifications of his actions so yeah, I'm going to go with Bush being the dominant contributing factor to the rise of ISIS.

    Did he know he was doing it? Probably not, but that is no excuse and when did he ever have a clue about what he was doing anyway? Perhaps some time before his first DUI.

    Remember at the time when the realists who predicted that this exact thing would happen if Iraq was invaded were shouted down as unpatriotic America-haters? The only surprising thing is that there are still people (outside of Infowars) who really don't believe destabilizing the mid-east through a decade of pointless war didn't pave the way for this.
    bibo ergo sum
    If you hear the thunder be happy - the lightening missed.
    This time.

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    Interesting take on this GC, no whining here strictly saying it as I see it. We can go about this protracted war issue forever never agreeing on either side or we can face the facts that we are dealing present idology that threatens the lives of every citizen in any country, including those in Islamic states.

    Mental laziness by playing the blame GWB card does not negate the danger that ISIS poses in today's world. You cannot escape from this monster.

    This has nothing to do with patriotism. Its all about survival of the sworn enemies of ISIS. Those nations that are hiding from this truth are nothing less than helping ISIS cause. Letting America go it alone is faulty thinking on their part.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt View Post
    Mental laziness by playing the blame GWB card does not negate the danger that ISIS poses in today's world.
    It's nothing to do with "mental laziness". You questioned whether or not the formation of ISIS was America's fault.

    It has been pointed out to you exactly why it was.

    As to how it's dealt with now is a separate issue.

    It suits Turkey's purpose to let ISIS slaughter Kurds, which is the topic of this thread.

  18. #18
    Custom user Neverna's Avatar
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    Turkey is more concerned about maintaining stability within Turkey. My interpretation of Turkey's vote in Parliament is that it's just preparation, just in case it needs to do something in a hurry at some time in the future, and perhaps also to deter IS from making any rash moves against Turkey - though I don't think IS would be stupid enough to do that.

    The Turkish tanks and troops currently sitting on the Syrian border are for the protection of Turkey, defensive and a deterrent rather than offensive. I'm sure Turkey will use them should the need arise.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt
    ^So now this is all America's fault?
    Just to reiterate - 100% categorically yes it is America's fault. It is also the Merkin's citizens fault who sit back like a nation of flacid cocks sated on their TV and junk food diets, waving their flags, and completely ignoring the seismic events their country creates on behalf of their corporations and lust for a global empire. It is your fault mate. Yours. You and 300m others who swallow the bullshit, wave your flags as the country's rich send the country's poor to die and kill other poor people solely to prop up the USD, to create markets for their business and eliminate competition for both. Your fault.
    Originally Posted by bsnub "No wonder I drive a tesla"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    When ISIS attacks Turkey, THEN it's NATO's business.
    This is the point - when a NATO member is attacked then NATO is there to defend it.

    Turkey wants to topple Assad - not something that NATO has anything to do with.

    The way I ses it, Turkey is allowing old foes to massacre one another, Kurds, Syrians

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    Thanks for the unbridled ass whipping in the blame game boys. I don't think you've quite got it right however.

    Turkey is making a big mistake in standing down. they think someone else is going to destroy their Kurdish enemy's for them. Once the Kurds receive the weapons needed they will do the job required on ISIS. Afterwards they will turn those same weapons on their Turkish neighbors as payment for their neighborly acts.

    I suppose the Iran Iraq war has no historical reference here? As well the mass murders of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people by Saddam and his henchmen?

    Making journalistic mumbo jumbo commentary as regards Americas responsibilities for what many here see as the Middle Eastern wars is simply riduculious. Do any of you recall his massive drive into Kuwait? Do you remember his gas attacks on the Iranian army? Gassing of Kurds in his northern provinces?

    I suppose in today's world most of you who take the opposing view of this ISIS slaughter of defenseless civilians land place the blame and responsibility on America are simply ignoring their responsibilities to peaceful people everywhere.

    Perhaps if there were a Hitler in today's world, you would be equally willing to ignore your responsibilities to humanity and look the other way as did most of the world during the genocidal days of the Third Reich.

    Syria isn't the problem, nor is Turkey. The problem is a population of the western world that has the capability of stamping out ISIS is unwilling to step forward and do so. More so willing to let it ride on the shoulders of the few who are willing to take on the murderers and radical Islamic terrorists.

    Sit back folks and drink a beer. Watch it unfold on television, BTW, Malaysia arrested 14 ISIS today in KL. How long till they arrive at your front door? Who's going to save ya? America? Don't think so.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt
    ^So now this is all America's fault?
    Just to reiterate - 100% categorically yes it is America's fault. It is also the Merkin's citizens fault who sit back like a nation of flacid cocks sated on their TV and junk food diets, waving their flags, and completely ignoring the seismic events their country creates on behalf of their corporations and lust for a global empire. It is your fault mate. Yours. You and 300m others who swallow the bullshit, wave your flags as the country's rich send the country's poor to die and kill other poor people solely to prop up the USD, to create markets for their business and eliminate competition for both. Your fault.
    Reasonably said, mate.
    The truth and reality might be difficult for some to comprehend.

    Ain't gonna gain many friends amongst the blind loyal Americans here nor the predictable variety that slobber over and champion militarism and war.


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OckerRocker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    When ISIS attacks Turkey, THEN it's NATO's business.
    This is the point - when a NATO member is attacked then NATO is there to defend it.

    Turkey wants to topple Assad - not something that NATO has anything to do with.

    The way I ses it, Turkey is allowing old foes to massacre one another, Kurds, Syrians
    Rich irony regarding Turkey's long-time NATO membership.
    The obvious reasoning behind NATO's extension to Turkey is geopolitical location.

    No love loss between the two and certainly not much brethren relationship.

  24. #24
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt
    Do you remember his gas attacks on the Iranian army?
    Talking of responsibility, remember this?



    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt
    Afterwards they will turn those same weapons on their Turkish neighbors as payment for their neighborly acts.
    Funny how that works isn't it? You sit and smugly predict what will happen to Turkey without the slightest hint of acknowledgement that that is exactly what has been happening to the US, as the realists in the world predicted. Bet you wish you hadn't spent quite so much money training and funding the Mujahideen now..

    Quote Originally Posted by ltnt
    Perhaps if there were a Hitler in today's world, you would be equally willing to ignore your responsibilities to humanity and look the other way as did most of the world during the genocidal days of the Third Reich.
    Nice try at a Godwin.

  25. #25
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    Still the Merkins fault, if you want to believe that ISIS is not their creation in the same way that AQ was....

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