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  1. #3651
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    First thing that strikes me about a contemporary moon landing is how much better the video will be.
    Hadn't really thought about it, but yea, I can't wait!

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    Oh I had thought of that. The 60s area stuff is very basic.

  3. #3653
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskit View Post
    “When you look at the rocket, it almost looks retro. It looks like we’re looking back toward the Saturn V,” NASA Administrator Bill Nelson told reporters







    Quote Originally Posted by misskit View Post
    The space agency wants a more diverse team
    -_-

    FFS. Give it to the best people, be them all black females, Asian ladyboys or Eskimos. Predetermining the race and gender of a specific number of crew is BS, really.

  4. #3654
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    Gonna be great for us born in the 80's. Will get to see humans walking on the moon in real time, and also get to see humans walking on Mars at some point in our lives.


    After that, humans won't really be going anywhere new (other than, perhaps Ceres) until wormholes and the control of space-time* has been mastered.



    *Get on it Simon.

  5. #3655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond View Post
    and also get to see humans walking on Mars at some point in our lives.
    Maybe. They still haven't solved the radiation problem that humans will receive traveling to Mars, even shielded. Bone mass loss in low gravity is also a significant problem.

  6. #3656
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWilly View Post
    Maybe. They still haven't solved the radiation problem that humans will receive traveling to Mars, even shielded.

    Radiation is not the problem, some people make it. Many astronauts have received similar doses while on the ISS. On Mars they can use local materials to shield while on the surface. Worst case is a slightly, very slightly, increased risk of cancer decades later.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWilly View Post
    Bone mass loss in low gravity is also a significant problem.
    Same as above for the transfer time. Astronauts have gone through it on the ISS, regular ISS shifts as long as flight duration to Mars, 6 months. Quite a few have done twice that, a full year. Training regime has improved a lot over time. Bone loss can be fully mitigated by now. Though there is still a change in bone structure.

    Worst remaining problem is the shift of body fluids from the lower body to the upper body, causing problems for the brain and eyes. Mitigation for that is also possible, with dedicated small centrifuges. Still too large for use on the ISS but easily done on much larger Starship.

    We do not know and won't know before we go to Mars, is how 38% of Earth gravity afffects the body while on Mars. There is plenty of reason to think it will help a lot, but we can't be sure before we go.
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

  7. #3657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Radiation is not the problem, some people make it. Many astronauts have received similar doses while on the ISS. On Mars they can use local materials to shield while on the surface. Worst case is a slightly, very slightly, increased risk of cancer decades later.
    Oh, ok. I did not realise that.


    I know they can mitigate the bone density loss to a certain degree, but I also read a study that the loss had not return even a year after returning to earth. ie: long term losses are experienced.

  8. #3658
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWilly View Post
    Oh, ok. I did not realise that.
    I am not surprised. You can find a huge number of people who talk about radiation. Robert Zubrin made a comparison when he proposed his Mars direct concept. He said if you send smokers to Mars without cigarettes, their cancer risk actually reduces. True but I am afraid they would kill each other off due to withdrawal symptoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWilly View Post
    I know they can mitigate the bone density loss to a certain degree, but I also read a study that the loss had not return even a year after returning to earth. ie: long term losses are experienced.
    The bone structure changes and may not get back to normal. But really, the biggest remaining threat is body fluid redistribution. A centrifuge with head at the center in microgravity and the legs at 1g works against this, as was proven in bedrest studies. Needed just once a week for 30 minutes. But the centrifuge, while quite small, is still too large for the ISS. No problem on Starship.

    Bedrest studies are used to simulate microgravity effects on Earth. People are kept in bed with the head slightly below the legs. This causes many of the microgravity effects, including bone loss and body fluid redistribution.

  9. #3659
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    NASA has selected 13 potential landing sites at the lunar south pole. One of them will be the place for a NASA crew landing.

    These places provide near full solar exposure for electricity from solar panels and is very close to craters that are never exposed to sunlight and therefore retain volatiles. Water, CO, maybe CO2 which are important to supply a manned base, maybe a permanent one.

    NASA Identifies Candidate Regions for Landing Next Americans on Moon | NASA




  10. #3660
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    Appreciate the answers and enjoy this thread.

  11. #3661
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    ESA, the european space agency announces big plans. Let's see what comes from it. It at least sounds quite exciting.

    ESA - SOLARIS

    We envision a Europe and world where clean, abundant, secure, safe and affordable energy is available to everyone


    SOLARIS
    We envision achieving a fully decarbonised world within the next few decades, allowing humanity to arrest the increase of global temperatures that is due to global warming.


    ESA, through a proposed new programme called SOLARIS, will take the next step in pursuit of space contributions to this vision, as it explores the feasibility and potential of Space-Based Solar Power – providing Earth with clean energy from space.


    This program would require a very large amount of mass sent into space. None of the existing launch vehicles can do it. Except the SpaceX Starship presently under development. So ESA proposes to develop their own cost efficient heavy lift launch vehicle, capable of lifting at least 10,000t of payload to LEO every year.

    esa-star Publication

    The program is in the tender stage. No details available yet.

    Call me somewhat sceptical. But interesting for sure.

  12. #3662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    The program is in the tender stage. No details available yet.

    Call me somewhat sceptical. But interesting for sure.
    Potentially more immediately useful to humankind than establishing a base on Mars.

  13. #3663
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWilly View Post
    Potentially more immediately useful to humankind than establishing a base on Mars.
    Maybe. But then this would never happen without the Starship development by SpaceX. Now someone, like ESA, may copy it and use it for this purpose. There is no way this could be commercially feasible without that.

    It might even be useful for Europe. Europe conditions are not well suited for terrestrial solar. The US and many regions in the world would be better served with terrestrial solar plus batteries.

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    NASA has issued an RFI. A request for information to industry, requesting if industry can deliver a system for ISS deorbit.

    Under present agreements Russia is responsible for deorbiting the ISS, when the need arises. They would use several Progress cargo ships to do it. NASA making this request indicates NASA has doubts that Russia can and will be able to perform that responsibility.

    Or maybe NASA preparing to cancel the agreements with Russia and end ISS cooperation. I doubt that as NASA and Russia are presently preparing for the first Russian Cosmonaut Anna Kikina to fly on the next crew Dragon mission later this year.

  15. #3665
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    The SLS launch vehicle for the Artemis 1 mission is at the pad. Launch for a Moon mission is scheduled for end of this month or early next month. If problems come up, there will be more launch windows coming.

    I learned about the mission plan only now. I had thought of a lunar orbit as something less complicated.

    Space News thread-fauseidwqaawaal-jpg

    Figure 4: Example Artemis-I Mission (Earth-Moon Two-Body Rotating Pulsating Frame).

    If anyone is interested in more details, there is everything in this NASA pdf file

    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...timization.pdf

    A part of it describing some of the trajectory

    Redirect Crewed Mission (ARCM).13 The trajectory can be broken into three phases of flight:
    Ascent, In-Space, and Entry. The Copernicus trajectory optimization software specializes in onorbit trajectory design, and therefore Copernicus plugins are used to simulate the ascent and entry
    phases of flight which are discussed in the subsequent sections.
    The trajectory begins at SLS Core Separation which places the ICPS/Orion stack into a 16 ×
    975 nmi orbit (30 x 1806 km). The ICPS performs a Perigee Raise Maneuver (PRM) to raise the
    perigee to 100 nmi (185 km). Then ICPS performs a Trans Lunar Injection (TLI) burn to target
    the Outbound Powered Flyby (OPF) burn, which Orion performs as it flies by the Moon. About 10
    minutes after TLI, an impulsive spring separation plugin models the separation between the ICPS
    and Orion vehicles. The ICPS targets the Orion Target Interface Point (TIP) 40 seconds after the
    spring separation. After another 41 seconds, Orion executes the Upper Stage Separation (USS)
    burn to increase the separation distance with the ICPS. At 6 hours after TLI, Orion performs a
    30 second Outbound Trajectory Correction (OTC)-1 burn to test the OMSe engine prior to its first
    major burn behind the Moon with no communication to ground support – this is also called the
    OMSe Checkout (OCO) burn component. Since ICPS performs a heliocentric disposal via lunar
    flyby, the OTC-1 burn also reduces the ICPS and secondary payload recontact risk which is needed
    since they are also headed towards the Moon. An optional OTC-2 burn can be used to provide the
    optimizer with additional control to target OPF throughout a launch window. At the lunar flyby,
    Orion performs its first major burn, OPF, followed by its second major burn, DRI, which inserts
    Orion into the DRO. While in the DRO, an optional DRO Plane Change (DPC) burn may be used
    to incline the DRO in order to avoid vehicle eclipse duration violations. After DRO operations, the
    Orion performs the DRO Departure (DRD) burn to target the lunar Return Powered Flyby (RPF)
    5
    burn onto the Earth return trajectory. The return trajectory targets a high speed atmospheric entry
    on the order of 36,000 ft/s (11 km/s), suitable for demonstrating the performance and effectiveness
    of the Orion Thermal Protection System (TPS) heat shield, as well as relevant environments prior
    to the first crewed launch of the system.


  16. #3666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    The SLS launch vehicle for the Artemis 1 mission is at the pad. Launch for a Moon mission is scheduled for end of this month or early next month. If problems come up, there will be more launch windows coming.
    Very cool. Cheers.

    How close will they get to the surface?

    What is the main aim of this first mission (other than testing the hardware and systems)? will they use the data to help select their future landing point?

    This is Artemis-I, which mission number is planned to land astronauts? Cheers.

  17. #3667
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    The first mission tests out the SLS launch vehicle and the propulsion and navigation part of the Orion capsule including the heat shield for Earth reentry after the flight. Orion is still not complete. It does not have the life support for crew. But a lot of the capabilities of Orion will be tested. Mostly the service module provided by Europe as their share of the Artemis program.

    Selecting the landing site will be supported by Moon orbiters and planned landers. Especially the planned VIPER rover that will drive into polar craters that never get sunlight and have volatiles like water. VIPER will also have european mission contributions.

    App. 2 years after Artemis 1 there is scheduled to be Artemis 2, which will bring people into lunar orbit. Artemis 3 will be the first lunar landing. SLS/Orion will get astronauts to lunar orbit. A Starship from SpaceX, the HLS version, will land them on the Moon. Presently scheduled for 2025, but likely to slip. If for no other reason, then because NASA will not have Moon capable spacesuits by then. Some people think, SpaceX HLS will also be delayed. HLS will do a demo landing without crew before first crew mission.

  18. #3668
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    Thanks. :-)

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    Check out the new image of Jupiter taken by the Webb Space Telescope.

    Space News thread-f9090d0b-84de-45a4-9cf0-8325bc41b3af-jpeg

    Webb Space Telescope GSFC/NASA
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Space News thread-f9090d0b-84de-45a4-9cf0-8325bc41b3af-jpeg  

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    Another amazing image. This one of the moon.

    Space News thread-7da681a5-a01c-4f95-b745-8235a4508843-jpeg

    The link below has an instagram link to close ups of this pic.

    Two astrophotographers have captured "the most ridiculously detailed" photo of the moon - CBS Sacramento
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Space News thread-7da681a5-a01c-4f95-b745-8235a4508843-jpeg  

  21. #3671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    If anyone is interested in more details
    Have all lunar flights done similar corrections?

  22. #3672
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Have all lunar flights done similar corrections?
    Yes, it is quite common. Interplanetary probes do the same. Usually there are more corrections scheduled than actually needed, but corrections are always necessary.

  23. #3673
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    Webb telescope is already challenging what astronomers thought they knew

    The James Webb Space Telescope, performing splendidly as it examines the universe, has got astronomers scratching their heads. The very distant universe looks a little different than expected.

    The telescope, launched eight months ago and orbiting the sun about a million miles from Earth,has been capturing images of extremely faint galaxies that emitted their light in the first billion years or so after the big bang. Observing these “early” galaxies is one of the main missions of the telescope — to see deeper into space, and further back in time, than any previous telescope.

    The first scientific results have emerged in recent weeks, and what the telescope has seen in deepest space is a little puzzling. Some of those distant galaxies are strikingly massive. A general assumption had been that early galaxies — which formed not long after the first stars ignited — would be relatively small and misshapen. Instead, some of them are big, bright and nicely structured.

    “The models just don’t predict this,” Garth Illingworth, an astronomer at the University of California at Santa Cruz, said of the massive early galaxies. “How do you do this in the universe at such an early time? How do you form so many stars so quickly?”

    This isn’t a cosmological crisis. What’s happening is a lot of fast science, conducted “in real time,” as astrophysicist Jeyhan Kartaltepe of the Rochester Institute of Technology puts it. Data from the new telescope is gushing forth, and she is among the legions of astronomers who are spinning out new papers, posting them quickly online in advance of peer review.

    The Webb is seeing things no one has ever seen in such sharp detail and at such tremendous distances. Research teams across the planet are looking at publicly released data and racing to spot the most distant galaxies or make other remarkable discoveries. Science often proceeds at a stately pace, advancing knowledge incrementally, but the Webb is dumping truckloads of enticing data on scientists all at once. Preliminary estimates of distances will get refined upon closer examination.

    Kartaltepe said she is certainly not worried about any tension between astrophysical theory and what the Webb is seeing: “We might be scratching our heads one day, but a day later, ‘Oh, this all makes sense now’.”

    What has surprised astronomer Dan Coe of the Space Telescope Science Institute are the number of nicely shaped, disklike galaxies.

    “We thought the early universe was this chaotic place where there’s all these clumps of star formation, and things are all a-jumble,” Coe said.

    That assumption about the early universe was due in part to observations by the Hubble Space Telescope, which revealed clumpy, irregularly shaped early galaxies. But Hubble observes in a relatively narrow portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, including “visible” light. Webb observes in the infrared, gathering light outside the range of Hubble. With Hubble, Coe said, “We were missing all the colder stars and the older stars. We were really only seeing the hot young ones.”

    The easiest explanation for those surprisingly massive galaxies is that, at least for some of them, there’s been a miscalculation — perhaps due to a trick of light.

    The distant galaxies are very red. They are, in astronomical lingo, “redshifted.” The wavelengths of light from these objects have been stretched by the expansion of the universe. The ones that look the reddest — that have the highest redshift — are presumed to be the farthest away.

    But dust can be throwing off the calculations. Dust can absorb blue light, and redden the object. It could be that some of these very distant, highly red-shifted galaxies are just very dusty, and not actually as far away (and as “young”) as they appear. That would realign the observations with what astronomers expected.

    Or some other explanation could surface. What is certain is that, for now, the $10 billion telescope — a joint effort of NASA and the space agencies of Canada and Europe — is delivering novel observations not only of those faraway galaxies but also closer-to-home objects like Jupiter, a giant asteroid and a newly discovered comet.

    The latest Webb discovery was announced Thursday: Carbon dioxide has been detected in the atmosphere of a distant, giant planet named WASP-39 b. It is “the first definitive detection of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of an exoplanet,” according to Knicole Colon, a Webb project scientist at NASA. Although WASP-39 b is considered far too hot to be habitable, the successful detection of carbon dioxide demonstrates the acuity of Webb’s vision and holds promise for future examination of distant planets that might harbor life.

    The telescope is controlled by engineers at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. The Mission Operations Center is on the second floor of the institute, which is on the edge of the Johns Hopkins University campus.

    On a recent morning, only three people were staffing the flight control room: operations controller Irma Aracely Quispe-Neira, ground systems engineer Evan Adams and command controller Kayla Yates. They sat at a row of work stations with large monitors laden with data fromthe telescope.

    “We don’t typically live-command the action,” Yates said. In other words, no one is controlling the telescope with a joystick or anything of the sort.It functions largely autonomously, fulfilling an observation schedule uploaded about once a week. A command is sent from the flight control room to NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. From there the command travels to the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., and then to the Deep Space Network — radio antennas near Barstow, Calif., Madrid and Canberra, Australia. Depending on the Earth’s rotation, one of those antennas can beam the command to the telescope.

    Long gone from the mission operations center in Baltimore are the crowds of people who were on hand on the morning of the telescope’s launch last Christmas.

    “It’s a testament to how well it works that we can go from several hundred people to just three of us,” Adams said.

    The observing schedule is largely determined by the desire to be efficient, and that often means looking at things that appear close to each other in the sky even if they’re billions of light-years distant from one another.

    A visitor will be disappointed to realize that the flight control team does not see what the telescope sees. There is no big screen showing, for example, a comet, or a galaxy, or the Dawn of Time. But the flight control team can read out data describing the orientation of the telescope — for example, “32 degrees right ascension, 12 degrees declination.” And then consult a star chart to see where the telescope is pointing.

    “It’s between Andromeda and whatever that other constellation is,” Adams said.

    Here’s a sample of some Webb observations, which should yield new images, as well as scientific reports, in the months ahead:

    The Cartwheel Galaxy: A strikingly beautiful and rare “ring” galaxy about 500 million light-years away. Its unusual structure is due to a collision with another galaxy. This had been one of the first images processed by the Webb team to showcase what the telescope can do.

    M16, the Eagle Nebula: This is a “planetary nebula” within our own galaxy that is famously the home of a structure nicknamed the “Pillars of Creation” that was imaged by the Hubble Space Telescope. It became one of the most famous Hubble images, showing three towering pillars of dust illuminated by hot, young stars outside the frame of the image, all of it oriented by NASA to produce what to the human eye looks like a terrestrial landscape. The Webb will presumably produce a similarly framed image but with new resolution and details, thanks to the ability to gather light in the infrared wavelengths inaccessible to the Hubble.

    Ganymede, Jupiter’s largest moon: It’s the largest moon in the solar system and is bigger even than the planet Mercury. Scientists believe it has a subsurface ocean with more water than all the oceans on Earth. Webb project scientist Klaus Pontopiddan said the telescope will be looking for plumes — geysers akin to what have been spotted on Jupiter’s moon Europa and Saturn’s moon Enceladus.

    C/2017 K2 comet: Discovered in 2017, this is an unusually large comet with a tail 500,000 miles long, heading toward the sun.

    The Great Barred Spiral Galaxy: Officially “NGC-1365,″ this is a classic, gorgeous “barred” galaxy — a spiral with a central bar of stars that links two prominent, curving arms. It’s about 56 million light-years away.

    Trappist-1 planetary system: Seven planets orbit this star, and several are in the “habitable zone,” meaning they are at a distance from the star where water could be liquid at the surface. Astronomers want to know if these planets have atmospheres.

    Draco and Sculptor: These are dwarf spheroidal galaxies close to the Milky Way. By studying their motion over a long period of time, astronomers hope to learn more about the presence of dark matter — which is invisible but has a gravitational signature.

    That’s just a partial list. There’s a lot to see out there.

    “It’s nonstop, 24-7, just science pouring back,” said Heidi Hammel, a planetary astronomer and vice president for science for the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy. “And it’s a huge diversity of science. I saw Jupiter’s great red spot — but then two hours later, now we’re looking at M33, this spiral galaxy. Two hours later, now we’re looking an exoplanet that I actually know by name. It’s very cool to watch that.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/scien...upiter-galaxy/

  24. #3674
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    Artemis I in numbers:

    Artemis I in numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    The distant galaxies are very red. They are, in astronomical lingo, “redshifted.” The wavelengths of light from these objects have been stretched by the expansion of the universe. The ones that look the reddest — that have the highest redshift — are presumed to be the farthest away.

    But dust can be throwing off the calculations. Dust can absorb blue light, and redden the object. It could be that some of these very distant, highly red-shifted galaxies are just very dusty, and not actually as far away (and as “young”) as they appear. That would realign the observations with what astronomers expected.
    This is a massive misunderstanding of what redshift means. It does not mean these galaxies look red. It means that spectral lines are not where they are when you look at objects in a lab or nearby, within this galaxy. They are shifted in the direction of red. That's not affected by dust doing blue filtering.

    The first sentence in the quote explains that, but then it goes all wrong.

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