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  1. #1
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    Is there ever a justification for war / military action?

    I did not post this in issues because I am not looking for an argument. That seems to be the area where the boxing always happens. Mods, feel free to move there if posting this in the lounge was a mistake.

    What I am looking for are some answers to questions I have about war. Past wars, present wars and future wars. This internal conflict I am having inside comes from a conversation I had with a friend a few weeks ago. He is a lieutenant in the US Army and a career military man.

    He asked me what I thought about Afghanistan and Iraq. I told him we need to get the hell out of the ME altogether. He reminded me on 911 and at that time I was a full supporter of a war with both countries. Since then, I have actually had a total change of heart. I admit, it is not that I feel any love for either country. There I said it. But rather feel both places are hopeless in not only victory in war, but also those folks do not want democracy.

    He asked me about our successful mission in Libya. My thought? None of our concern.

    He asked me if I supported American military action in Syria. My thought? Same as above.

    My friend then said war is a necessary evil that has always been and will always be, He is confident Iran is our next hot spot. He repeatedly told me that war is something that is justified when someone provokes us into military action. He said it is also justifeed to protect the freedoms of others and to promote democracy and human rights in our ally countries around the world.

    It was late and I told him I had to get to bed. I went to the bedroom and got into bed. But I did not sleep well that night. I kept thinking - Is war necessary? Is there ever a justification for war? What justifies it?

    Am I having a revelation moment?

    I am not looking for an argument, a fight, name calling, insults etc. In fact, I will not respond to such posts. I will happily read all thoughts on this subject that are given respectfully.

    I am searching for some sort of resolution within myself to the question below.

    Is there ever a justification for war / military action?

    Thanks!

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    Since we are young as a species, merely candidates for the Human Race, why should we ever be ashamed of our crude behaviour.

  3. #3
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    Yes when under attack. Same for protecting a smaller or weaker country from attack. To stay and occupy is wrong IMO. We should only stay if ask by the government of that country to do so.To force our way on another is wrong too. And the biggest wrong, IMO, is to fight wars the way they are fought today. Forget the PR nonsense and just do the job and get it over with and go home. Yes war is nasty but who started it. What is a country to do - sit still and be taken over or wiped out?

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    Hmmm...

    Same old naive rhetoric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceburat1 View Post
    Yes when under attack. Same for protecting a smaller or weaker country from attack. To stay and occupy is wrong IMO. We should only stay if ask by the government of that country to do so.To force our way on another is wrong too. And the biggest wrong, IMO, is to fight wars the way they are fought today. Forget the PR nonsense and just do the job and get it over with and go home. Yes war is nasty but who started it. What is a country to do - sit still and be taken over or wiped out?
    One might question any such rhyme or reasoning for said attack....??

  6. #6
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    When two men disagree there is methods other than fighting to solve the problem. It's the same between countries. However, when one attacks the other self defense is in order.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceburat1 View Post
    When two men disagree there is methods other than fighting to solve the problem. It's the same between countries. However, when one attacks the other self defense is in order.
    Yet, what if the so-called self defender isn't so innocent....and has a evil and nasty history?

    Attacks might be justified in some form or another.
    Kind of a kharma thing going on.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chitown View Post
    I did not post this in issues because I am not looking for an argument. That seems to be the area where the boxing always happens. Mods, feel free to move there if posting this in the lounge was a mistake.

    What I am looking for are some answers to questions I have about war. Past wars, present wars and future wars. This internal conflict I am having inside comes from a conversation I had with a friend a few weeks ago. He is a lieutenant in the US Army and a career military man.

    He asked me what I thought about Afghanistan and Iraq. I told him we need to get the hell out of the ME altogether. He reminded me on 911 and at that time I was a full supporter of a war with both countries. Since then, I have actually had a total change of heart. I admit, it is not that I feel any love for either country. There I said it. But rather feel both places are hopeless in not only victory in war, but also those folks do not want democracy.

    He asked me about our successful mission in Libya. My thought? None of our concern.

    He asked me if I supported American military action in Syria. My thought? Same as above.

    My friend then said war is a necessary evil that has always been and will always be, He is confident Iran is our next hot spot. He repeatedly told me that war is something that is justified when someone provokes us into military action. He said it is also justifeed to protect the freedoms of others and to promote democracy and human rights in our ally countries around the world.

    It was late and I told him I had to get to bed. I went to the bedroom and got into bed. But I did not sleep well that night. I kept thinking - Is war necessary? Is there ever a justification for war? What justifies it?

    Am I having a revelation moment?

    I am not looking for an argument, a fight, name calling, insults etc. In fact, I will not respond to such posts. I will happily read all thoughts on this subject that are given respectfully.

    I am searching for some sort of resolution within myself to the question below.

    Is there ever a justification for war / military action?

    Thanks!
    your friend is drinking the military kool aid, perfectly normal in a time of conflict, they need it

    but he is an idiot and not thinking

    apparently living in Thailand and outside the US propaganda machine is making you think like a normal person and not like an American

    congrats, and welcome to the liberal moonbat club

    next stop California, and how to become gay

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceburat1 View Post
    Yes when under attack. Same for protecting a smaller or weaker country from attack. To stay and occupy is wrong IMO. We should only stay if ask by the government of that country to do so.To force our way on another is wrong too. And the biggest wrong, IMO, is to fight wars the way they are fought today. Forget the PR nonsense and just do the job and get it over with and go home. Yes war is nasty but who started it. What is a country to do - sit still and be taken over or wiped out?
    go die in Afghanistan you religious freak

    your Taliban brothers are waiting for you,

    don't forget to enjoy their gay sex too

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by chitown
    Is there ever a justification for war / military action?
    only if under direct attack, not with lame excuses like we had in WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Iraq 1, Iraq 2 and Afghanistan

  11. #11
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    As the initial inquiry has a subliminal bias and culturally-centric spin to it, I would expect a thread of this nature to gather in a most predictable way...

    Vacant of alternative examinations and theories.

    What about planned and preemptive [unnecessary] actions?

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    Asking whether war is ever justified or necessary is like asking the meaning of a football game... it's sort of beside the point.

    Our "contemporary" tendency to talk about war as if it were a symptom of a failure to evolve or of a kind of stupidity native to particular nations or, in the case of the feminist take, men in general, is part and parcel of the delusionary consciousness induced and reinforced by the theory and practice of politics in liberal democracies.

    War is shit and shit happens. It's politics. Are politics "justified" or "necessary"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Asking whether war is ever justified or necessary is like asking the meaning of a football game... it's sort of beside the point.

    Our "contemporary" tendency to talk about war as if it were a symptom of a failure to evolve or of a kind of stupidity native to particular nations or, in the case of the feminist take, men in general, is part and parcel of the delusionary consciousness induced and reinforced by the theory and practice of politics in liberal democracies.

    War is shit and shit happens. It's politics. Are politics "justified" or "necessary"?
    It's about mega-profits and extending empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    It's about mega-profits and extending empire.
    Sure... but that's a wee bit on the reductive side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    It's about mega-profits and extending empire.
    Sure... but that's a wee bit on the reductive side.

    Ever observed that it's your Liberal Democracies that have been far and away the greatest instigators and promoters of war and general militarism on the planet?

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    Wars are only a recent development in human progress, starting after nomadic hunter gatherers settled into agriculture and then started to compete for land and resources.

    In defence of home territory, yes, war is justified, but attacking another country and its people, to become an aggressor in war, no, war is not justified.

    The excuse that (mainly only) America makes that war is necessary to democratise another country or to rid another country of its perceived evils, or to knock another country out for the sake of it's economy, again, war is not justified.

    The series of wars resulting from the 9/11 fiasco has resulted in totally un-necessary suffering for millions of people. All of this on the pretext that USA, in combination with others, had a moral obligation or mandate from god to rid the world of drugs, non-democracy (whatever that is) and anything else un-American.

    This has been the American way of policing the world (which it had no business to interfere in), as America was not under attack.
    No country has right to take war to another, but every country has the right to repulse an invader.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    It's about mega-profits and extending empire.
    Sure... but that's a wee bit on the reductive side.

    Ever observed that it's your Liberal Democracies that have been far and away the greatest instigators and promoters of war and general militarism on the planet?

    Now that's hilarious! Do you want to invest in some timeshare condos in Somalia?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camel Toe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    It's about mega-profits and extending empire.
    Sure... but that's a wee bit on the reductive side.

    Ever observed that it's your Liberal Democracies that have been far and away the greatest instigators and promoters of war and general militarism on the planet?

    Now that's hilarious! Do you want to invest in some timeshare condos in Somalia?
    Having a grasp of reality and historic knowledge might be useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    Ever observed that it's your Liberal Democracies that have been far and away the greatest instigators and promoters of war and general militarism on the planet?
    Compared to the Romans, you mean? And in all fairness to Lib Dem'cy, I don't think either WWI or II were instigated by them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    Ever observed that it's your Liberal Democracies that have been far and away the greatest instigators and promoters of war and general militarism on the planet?
    Compared to the Romans, you mean? And in all fairness to Lib Dem'cy, I don't think either WWI or II were instigated by them.
    Actually, they were - if you look deeper.

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    Actually, they weren't. If you stick to a vaguely historical approach.

    My point about liberal democracy was that the kind of sentimental, "moral" discussions of war that go on all over the West are the result of a delusionary sense that politics is somehow related to ethics and that "opinion" is more than just the farting into the wind of relatively uninformed "citizens". I'd imagine the Chinese have a different way of looking at these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mao say dung View Post
    Actually, they weren't. If you stick to a vaguely historical approach.

    My point about liberal democracy was that the kind of sentimental, "moral" discussions of war that go on all over the West are the result of a delusionary sense that politics is somehow related to ethics and that "opinion" is more than just the farting into the wind of relatively uninformed "citizens". I'd imagine the Chinese have a different way of looking at these things.
    There's no such beast as a "Liberal Democracy".
    Never has been, never will be.
    Even so, there is nothing benign or beneovlent behind this fantasy of free, open, and progressive Western Democracies.

    You certainly do need to change your flavour of Kool-Aid.

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    Speaking as a non-Platonist who believes that liberal democracy is a descriptive term that adequately points to some of the salient features of many Western governments I can't agree.

    And living on this planet, I can't see the point of further discussion, so have a good day!

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    Having a grasp of reality and historic knowledge might be useful.
    Doubling down?

    Let's look at the senseless wars, the big ones shouldn't count, they're waaaay to complicated to point the finger. But good thing the USA got involved in WW2 or you'd be speaking German and working in some sweatshop for Marks .. unless you look like a Jew.

    Okay, JFK founded Special Forces and sent them to VN. That was senseless if you disregard an attempt to "liberate the oppressed." There's no petrol in VN. If there were the Republicunts would have colonized the place long before the French.

    Teddy Roosevelt, Spanish-American War - senseless
    Afghan - senseless
    Iraq - senseless
    Korean - not any less senseless than the others.

    It comes down to which of the wars you support with your own particular ideology, doesn't it?

    Another factor is if you've served in one of them. Who could have been there, seen the death and suffering and not HAVE TO believe it wasn't all for not. Who would glance at the mirror and think: Doh! You stupid fook. You're missing two arms and a leg fighting to empower the Bush Family.

    Have I erred?

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    Nope, you haven't.
    You've described the mental conflict of many veterans of the Vietnam war that I've met, both of the US and allied forces.

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